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OT: PGA and LIV Golf to merge….

WhiteBus said:
Well the Saudis just did make it a viable business. Yet you keep talking about TV deals. SMH. They have an equal seat at the table of controlling golf worldwide. I don't understand how you think that paying in for that seat is a bad thing. Being on the biggest stage in golf is what they were after. They got it. Enjoy the crow.
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They bought their seat. No one denies that. I didn't say it was a bad thing.

But you keep acting like LIV bailed out the poor old PGAT but the reality is if you remove the emotion from it, LIV needed this as much as you think the PGAT needed this merger. The Saudis bought their seat because they likely had to buy their seat. LIV wasn't sustainable long term as a business model (and yes, the Saudis told you this was to be a viable business) if they couldn't get people to watch and sponsors to throw money at them. More than 12 months in, they had made little headway on a real revenue stream. So they did the next best thing, pay a crap ton of money to the PGAT to essentially buy the PGAs sponsors, TV partners, etc.

I don't think it's desperation on their part. I think it's simply a smart business decision given the financial story that has unfolded to date.
 
Some twitter reports that some of the players are pissed at Monahan. I have to think these are the mid-level guys. I can't imagine someone like Rahm or Scheffler didn't know this was coming.
 
I expected this merger or at least both tours exsisting in peace and working together so tour dates don't overlap.
I had posted a few times a deal would be made and both tours would be in play because the Saudis could afford to pile cash in the LIV forcing the PGA to spend more than it wanted and be more accessible to making a deal
But I didn't envision the PGA to be , in my opinion., bought by the Saudis and go into a partnership with the LIV.
The PGA tour players that remained faithful were kept in the dark and now know they were sold out and their loyalty was in vain.and they were disrespected in the end if not being made to look like fools by the PGA commissioner

I expect to see a new PGA Commish soon with Monahan finding an excuse to step down while getting a very generous severance package for getting out of dodge before being hung for stabbing the PGA players in the back.
Nothng wrong with the merger, except the way it was handled and PGA players looking like fools while the LIV players got the gold and now all the cards in thir favor while the PGA players rolled the dice and craps was the result.

Saudi money prevailed,Monahan sold the PGA players loyalty out in order to save the Tour the expense of fighting the LIV and letting the Saudis buy peace and become partners
 
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Ty Webb said:
They bought their seat. No one denies that. I didn't say it was a bad thing.

But you keep acting like LIV bailed out the poor old PGAT but the reality is if you remove the emotion from it, LIV needed this as much as you think the PGAT needed this merger. The Saudis bought their seat because they likely had to buy their seat. LIV wasn't sustainable long term as a business model (and yes, the Saudis told you this was to be a viable business) if they couldn't get people to watch and sponsors to throw money at them. More than 12 months in, they had made little headway on a real revenue stream. So they did the next best thing, pay a crap ton of money to the PGAT to essentially buy the PGAs sponsors, TV partners, etc.

I don't think it's desperation on their part. I think it's simply a smart business decision given the financial story that has unfolded to date.
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Where did I say they bailed them out. I've been saying from day one the LIV was never a threat to the PGA. But no matter how much money they paid the PGA completely reversed their decision and let the LIV in. To me the PGA is not only hypocritical but also blinked first. No one forced them into this deal. If you been watching the Golf Channel all day it was the PGA that was being pressured from all sides. There was no pressure on the LIV. And I love how you predict the future and keep stating it as fact. You have no idea what's deals the LIV was making.
 
Watching Golf Channel. I thought Jaime Diaz was going to cry. I am so happy the tours are coming together and including DP as well. Time to end all the nonsense and just get back to golf. All the best playing together (eventually).
 
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Section124 said:
Watching Golf Channel. I thought Jaime Diaz was going to cry. I am so happy the tours are coming together and including DP as well. Time to end all the nonsense and just get back to golf. All the best playing together (eventually).
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Sounds good.....and fire Jay M.
 
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WhiteBus said:
Where did I say they bailed them out. I've been saying from day one the LIV was never a threat to the PGA. But no matter how much money they paid the PGA completely reversed their decision and let the LIV in. To me the PGA is not only hypocritical but also blinked first. No one forced them into this deal. If you been watching the Golf Channel all day it was the PGA that was being pressured from all sides. There was no pressure on the LIV. And I love how you predict the future and keep stating it as fact. You have no idea what's deals the LIV was making.
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Oh no doubt they PGA looks hypocritical, at least Monahan and his management team. I suspect many of the players were blindsided by this. I am not sure it was the PGA that blinked first but maybe they did. There's definitely an angle here where the PIF went to the PGA first. I suspect we'll find out more in the coming months as people start to unpeel this thing.

Are you talking about TV deals when you ask what deals they were making? This isn't rocket science here. LIV was pretty vocal last year about their need for a TV deal. Norman bragged they had some real options. Then they announced what was a pretty lopsided deal with CW where LIV would pay all the costs of broadcasting their events but share the ad revenue 50-50 with CW. This season rolled out and the viewership numbers were pretty shoddy. Even when adding in the LIV produced streaming numbers, LIV was lagging even lower level PGA events in terms of viewership. It got so bad that LIV announced a month ago they weren't going to share their viewers numbers anymore.

Now, in what world, would LIV be able to parlay that into a real, viable, big time TV contract? They couldn't. But in forming this new umbrella with the DP and PGAT, now suddenly LIV has real access to a legitimate TV deal. They just bought their TV access and there is nothing wrong with that. But when you look at this way, it surely shows you why LIV might have made a move first here.
 
Any analysis from Golf Channel yet on details?

How does the DP Tour figure into this merger?
 
Ty Webb said:
Oh no doubt they PGA looks hypocritical, at least Monahan and his management team. I suspect many of the players were blindsided by this. I am not sure it was the PGA that blinked first but maybe they did. There's definitely an angle here where the PIF went to the PGA first. I suspect we'll find out more in the coming months as people start to unpeel this thing.

Are you talking about TV deals when you ask what deals they were making? This isn't rocket science here. LIV was pretty vocal last year about their need for a TV deal. Norman bragged they had some real options. Then they announced what was a pretty lopsided deal with CW where LIV would pay all the costs of broadcasting their events but share the ad revenue 50-50 with CW. This season rolled out and the viewership numbers were pretty shoddy. Even when adding in the LIV produced streaming numbers, LIV was lagging even lower level PGA events in terms of viewership. It got so bad that LIV announced a month ago they weren't going to share their viewers numbers anymore.

Now, in what world, would LIV be able to parlay that into a real, viable, big time TV contract? They couldn't. But in forming this new umbrella with the DP and PGAT, now suddenly LIV has real access to a legitimate TV deal.
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You keep acting like golf is just an American sport and only played in the US. You do understand there is golf played all over and there are TV networks all over world as well. I watch the DP Tour. It's not televised by NBC Sports but is picked up by them. Trying to get a TV in year one is hard because of existing contracts in place already. Next year or the year after there were plenty of more opportunities.
Again you keep harping on TV. Funny so was Chamblee today. Birds of a feather...
 
Also, while it's certainly possible that the PGA folded here, there are some pretty big incentives for the PIF to fold first as well beyond just the financial implications.

The PIF and it's governors lost a case recently that would make them have to open their books and sit for depositions in the PGA/LIV fight. They have fought desperately to block that but a recent court ruling blocked them and now it was to go to an appeals court.

PS - This also works for the PGA who probably wanted litigation to go away as well due to costs, potential anti-trust crap, etc.
 
WhiteBus said:
You keep acting like golf is just an American sport and only played in the US. You do understand there is golf played all over and there are TV networks all over world as well. I watch the DP Tour. It's not televised by NBC Sports but is picked up by them. Trying to get a TV in year one is hard because of existing contracts in place already. Next year or the year after there were plenty of more opportunities.
Again you keep harping on TV. Funny so was Chamblee today. Birds of a feather...
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And yet, the Saudis and Norman were pretty vocal about needing/wanting a US television deal. Again, if it wasn't that important why take such a lopsided deal with the CW? It's not hard to figure out - LIV was trying to show viability to the US market, which is the most important golf market in the world.

I keep harping on TV because at the end of the day, even the Saudis knew the importance of TV and TV revenues in their business plan. Without a legitimate US TV deal and eyeballs, they couldn't get major sponsors and couldn't then sell the 75% stake the Saudis had in each team to recoup their investment. Again, this was spelled out by the Saudis and was their long term plan. TV was the lynch pin to tie this all together. Hence, again, why they were quite vocal about getting a US TV deal last year.

What's funny is that you keep arguing against this and yet seemingly are ignoring what the Saudis and Norman said and did.
 
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Ty Webb said:
Also, while it's certainly possible that the PGA folded here, there are some pretty big incentives for the PIF to fold first as well beyond just the financial implications.

The PIF and it's governors lost a case recently that would make them have to open their books and sit for depositions in the PGA/LIV fight. They have fought desperately to block that but a recent court ruling blocked them and now it was to go to an appeals court.

PS - This also works for the PGA who probably wanted litigation to go away as well due to costs, potential anti-trust crap, etc.
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And to hide their secrets too. Discovery works both ways.
 
people seem more upset on Twitter the pga made a deal with the Saudis…..

Then the fact that our US govt is currently in Saudi Arabia 🇸🇦 brokering deals with them.
 
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Ty Webb said:
Oh no doubt they PGA looks hypocritical, at least Monahan and his management team. I suspect many of the players were blindsided by this. I am not sure it was the PGA that blinked first but maybe they did. There's definitely an angle here where the PIF went to the PGA first. I suspect we'll find out more in the coming months as people start to unpeel this thing.

Are you talking about TV deals when you ask what deals they were making? This isn't rocket science here. LIV was pretty vocal last year about their need for a TV deal. Norman bragged they had some real options. Then they announced what was a pretty lopsided deal with CW where LIV would pay all the costs of broadcasting their events but share the ad revenue 50-50 with CW. This season rolled out and the viewership numbers were pretty shoddy. Even when adding in the LIV produced streaming numbers, LIV was lagging even lower level PGA events in terms of viewership. It got so bad that LIV announced a month ago they weren't going to share their viewers numbers anymore.

Now, in what world, would LIV be able to parlay that into a real, viable, big time TV contract? They couldn't. But in forming this new umbrella with the DP and PGAT, now suddenly LIV has real access to a legitimate TV deal. They just bought their TV access and there is nothing wrong with that. But when you look at this way, it surely shows you why LIV might have made a move first here.
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My take is the Saudis needed the PGA to make a deal with them to legitimize the LIV tour and get the major networks to put them in their
sports lineup and were willing to invest a huge amount to force the PGA to the table.
The PGA, at first, felt the Saudies would get tired of throwing good money after bad trying to make the LIV tour look like the PGA's equal.
But the PGA underestimated the Sudis commiment and willingness to pay huge amounts to force the PGA to spend more to fight keeping their loyal players loyal and in the end Sudi money ruled the day.

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't just plain old stubbornness because of the way the PGA was fighting that made the LIV Tour more of saving pride by spending what it takes to keep it strong enough to fight the PGA , then just a normal business venture that the support was based on getting a return for their investment quickly.

With the money the Saudis could invest without worrying about how long it will take to show a profit and keeping the LIV Tour going because it was an matter of pride not to fold and the PGA looking at money spent over their pride in being th only game in town , the PGA folded like a cheap table and let their players take the fall because they knew the Saudis weren't giving up
and the PGA commish and his cronies were feeling a money pinch with n end in sight.
 
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MADHAT1 said:
My take is the Saudis needed the PGA to make a deal with them to legitimize the LIV tour and get the major networks to put them in their
sports lineup and were willing to invest a huge amount to force the PGA to the table.
The PGA, at first, felt the Saudies would get tired of throwing good money after bad trying to make the LIV tour look like the PGA's equal.
But the PGA underestimated the Sudis commiment and willingness to pay huge amounts to force the PGA to spend more to fight keeping their loyal players loyal and in the end Sudi money ruled the day.

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't just plain old stubbornness because of the way the PGA was fighting that made the LIV Tour more of saving pride by spending what it takes to keep it strong enough to fight the PGA , then just a normal business venture that the support was based on getting a return for their investment quickly.

With the money the Saudis could invest without worrying about how long it will take to show a profit and keeping the LIV Tour going because it was an matter of pride not to fold and the PGA looking at money spent over their pride in being th only game in town , the PGA folded like a cheap table and let their players take the fall because they knew the Saudis weren't giving up
and the PGA commish and his cronies were feeling a money pinch with n end in sight.
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Maybe but the actions of LIV and the PIF could tell you otherwise. I think people that think they were just going to throw billions at this for the next 5 years or so just for pride and for fun weren't paying attention to what they were actually doing. They were desperate for a US TV deal because they knew they needed the US television market. They cut back on costs at events this year. They pushed out the COO in December and the PIF said that they were actually disappointed where they were at that time. We found out that part of their plan was to sell their ownership stake in teams to investors like regular sports franchises, etc. This wasn't a hobby. This was a long term play. They were probably willing to throw money at this for a few more years as long as they saw improvement.

But one can absolutely make the case that LIV was kind of just mucking around. Attendance at events was OK, still lagging most PGA events. TV viewership/streaming was weak. They won't even share their viewership numbers anymore and even CW affiliates dumped a playoff for reruns a few weeks ago. So the PIF might have been looking at this and saying, gee, things are kind of flatlined here, let's see if there is a deal to be made where we can leverage our shit ton of cash and buy our way into TV rights, sponsors, legitimacy, etc.

That's as plausible as a scenario that the PGA folded here and ran to the PIF to save them/make a deal. As I said above, we'll likely find out more in the coming months as we get reporters and the like sniffing around the details.

PS - I do tend to think the pissing match ending is good for golf. A total win? Let's see how all this shakes out in terms of how the tours interact, players move about, rankings, etc. There's a lot of details still to be filled in.
 
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MADHAT1 said:
My take is the Saudis needed the PGA to make a deal with them to legitimize the LIV tour and get the major networks to put them in their
sports lineup and were willing to invest a huge amount to force the PGA to the table.
The PGA, at first, felt the Saudies would get tired of throwing good money after bad trying to make the LIV tour look like the PGA's equal.
But the PGA underestimated the Sudis commiment and willingness to pay huge amounts to force the PGA to spend more to fight keeping their loyal players loyal and in the end Sudi money ruled the day.

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't just plain old stubbornness because of the way the PGA was fighting that made the LIV Tour more of saving pride by spending what it takes to keep it strong enough to fight the PGA , then just a normal business venture that the support was based on getting a return for their investment quickly.

With the money the Saudis could invest without worrying about how long it will take to show a profit and keeping the LIV Tour going because it was an matter of pride not to fold and the PGA looking at money spent over their pride in being th only game in town , the PGA folded like a cheap table and let their players take the fall because they knew the Saudis weren't giving up
and the PGA commish and his cronies were feeling a money pinch with n end in sight.
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This was all thrown together very quickly. Not many people in the know working on this. Several outlets are saying no players, media outlets or sponsers were talked to. Speculation is they believed the news was going to be leaked so they through together a binding deal, without details and made the announcement hastily. So much that the name is TBD.
Monahan and Yasir Al-Rumayyan were sitting side by side on TV today so they both were spotted together earlier apparently.
 
jtung230 said:
No, they let PGA do their thing and buy their top players. I think everyone should wait and see the terms of the deal before claiming victory.
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I think it’s easy to see who won…the Saudis. They have their prize.

What this means for LIV as it is now…who knows
 
So to me it looks like everyone wins. We get all the players in tourneys again. The LIV and PGA split a much bigger pie. Players get paid more. The only thing lost here is some guys looked silly (while making a lot of money).

Am I wrong here?
 
mikemarc1 said:
I think it’s easy to see who won…the Saudis. They have their prize.

What this means for LIV as it is now…who knows
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I loved the LIV golf they had the personalities and the PGA guys are like robots with no pizazz. Glad they merged so I can watch all the players at once. I don’t care who sponsors the sport. Is it any better that China basically runs the NBA
 
mikemarc1 said:
I think it’s easy to see who won…the Saudis. They have their prize.

What this means for LIV as it is now…who knows
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Top Saudi is the Chairman of the new for profit board. They won big time.
 
Is it likely that the financial sponsors of the PGA Tour are unhappy that the tour has lost so many big names and do not want to continue under the current financial terms of the contract?

Koepka and Phil’s winning performances in the Masters may have watered down the value of the PGA Tour to their sponsors imo. Maybe the sponsors told Monaghan to cut a deal here or they threaten to contest their contracts and walk.

Shades of the AFC-NFC merger when the NY Jets won the 1969 Super Bowl over the heavily favored Baltimore Colts?
 
RUScrew85 said:
So to me it looks like everyone wins. We get all the players in tourneys again. The LIV and PGA split a much bigger pie. Players get paid more. The only thing lost here is some guys looked silly (while making a lot of money).

Am I wrong here?
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The only losers were Brandel Chamblee, the people on here who embarrassed themselves (and continue to do even today) Rory for the embarrassment and betrayal he must feel. Can't see Monahan surviving which is a win for the PGA. The LIV is the big winner, players are big winners and will have a big say on how next year looks like. I don't see the the LIV doing everything the same but teams sound like a must but they will have much bigger fields.
 
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Interesting that Greg Norman and PGA tour players had no idea about the merger until this morning. Most tour players interviewed are furious with the announcement. Can't imagine how this plays out in the locker room and PGA meetings going forward.
 
RUScrew85 said:
So to me it looks like everyone wins. We get all the players in tourneys again. The LIV and PGA split a much bigger pie. Players get paid more. The only thing lost here is some guys looked silly (while making a lot of money).

Am I wrong here?
Click to expand...
Actually the PGA players that backed the PGA 100% and did their best to make the LIV look bad are the losers.
Not because of the Saudi money bringing the PGA to the table, but the way the PGA kept them in the dark and letting them fight on when a deal was in the works.
Blindsiding the loyal players who stop by the PGA and turning downLIV money is not a good way to show respect for them fighting tooth and nail for you..

The PGA Commissioner let LIV players have their cake and eat it after telling them they'd be getting just the crums left from the cake the PGE players ate.
Now the PGA players see what they wound up with was crumb cake while LIV players had icing added to theirs.

A deal like this was going to happen, but didn't have to be so disrespectful to the PGA players that remained fully loyal to their tour and in the end treated like they didn't count..
A heads up wouldn't have killed the deal, but shown that the PGA valued their support
 
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WhiteBus said:
The only losers were Brandel Chamblee, the people on here who embarrassed themselves (and continue to do even today) Rory for the embarrassment and betrayal he must feel. Can't see Monahan surviving which is a win for the PGA. The LIV is the big winner, players are big winners and will have a big say on how next year looks like. I don't see the the LIV doing everything the same but teams sound like a must but they will have much bigger fields.
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The LIV isn’t a winner, imo. I can see it finished after this season.

The players who went to LIV are the big winners, sure. And Saudi Arabia
 
mikemarc1 said:
The LIV isn’t a winner, imo. I can see it finished after this season.

The players who went to LIV are the big winners, sure. And Saudi Arabia
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Saudi Arabia is the LIV and shown the world it could bring the PGA to the table and make a deal.
The LIV was a winner because it, being a rival that couldn't be broken , made the PGA go into a partnership with the Saudis
 
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mikemarc1 said:
The LIV isn’t a winner, imo. I can see it finished after this season.

The players who went to LIV are the big winners, sure. And Saudi Arabia
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What?? Even the Golf Channel, owned by the PGA, agree the LIV was a huge winner. The LIV will replace the WGC with full fields. They may not play a lot in the US but that is the plan.
 
LIV was never about making money for the Saudis. Just like their soccer signings. It’s about buying a seat at the table. They would’ve kept LIV going for as long as they wanted. The PGA Tour’s annual revenue is $1.5 billion. Do you think a country sitting on $20 trillion in oil reserves would even blink at $1.5 billion?
 
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