You're a clown. I didn't bring up Phil, you did.
Rory can have whatever reasons he wants. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Done wasting time with you.
OT: PGA and LIV Golf to merge….
- Thread starter mikemarc1
- Start date
You're a clown. I didn't bring up Phil, you did.
Rory can have whatever reasons he wants. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Done wasting time with you.
Rory took UAE money for years. He should just keep his mouth shut.
LIV doesn't have a controlling interest in professional golf. The PIF does. LIV, as we know it, may not even continue beyond this year if you believe some of the reports.
If you want to view LIVs "success" through the prism that it helped the PIF get what they really wanted, a bite at the PGA/DP tour apples, yes, LIV was absolutely successful as a conduit towards to that goal. But not because of what LIV was doing or their concept, but because they were funded by a group with bottomless barrels of cash and willing to throw it around for a few years.
But LIV, the concept, was not successful. Ratings were poor, even streaming numbers. It got so bad LIV just decided to stop reporting numbers. Attendance figures often lagged behind even lower level PGA Tour events. Last year, LIVs attorneys admitted in court that revenues where pretty much non-existent, especially relative what LIV had spent. Even their TV deal wasn't a great windfall as while they shared in ad revenue with the CW from their events, LIV had to cover every cost of producing that telecast themselves - equipment, commentators, infrastructure, etc. They were losing money left and right.
I saw one pro-LIV report sum it up best when he associated LIV Golf with nothing more than a loss leader. The PIF was going to throw money for a time to make it actually a profitable entity or use it as leverage to get at the bigger prize - the PGAT, it's TV, it's sponsors, etc.
The PGA wasn't afraid of LIV. The PGA was afraid of the PIF's money.
Maybe, though from what I heard yesterday that threat is about to go through some things for the second of several times.
Again not needed. Injury plagued he went to liv not knowing if he could cut it anymore. Hope they make these dudes play 20 + majors let's see if they tap out. Younger up & comers do not fear anyone on tour. You are way over blowing it. The TOUR is not 1 PERSON. The only person that came close to that status was Tiger
Who owns the LIV??? You kept saying the crap about no profits, they are going to run out of money. You were wrong about that from day one. They didn't care about profit. Everyone has been saying and you keep ignoring it. The LIV with the PIF backing panicked and overspent with these new purses. But you don't think the LIV forced changes??? They weren't afraid of it? This last off-season proved you wrong. And your rant about TV was just silly.
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Not sure how you can say the concept of LIV didn't work. We don't yet know how the tour will look in the next 5 years. The PGA has already adopted some of the LIV concepts and more top players were leaving every year. In addition, the PIF was always "LIV" so you can't really parse the two. Finally, focusing on whether LIV was making money now or would ever make money misses the entire point of the venture. The Saudis wanted in on the game. In less than 3 years they went from having no place at the table to owning 49% of the PGA, the chairman of the board of the PGA, and controlling all money flowing into the PGA. That all happened because of LIV.
The PIF owns LIV. If the PIF wants to make LIV go away tomorrow, they can. And it may in the next offseason or two.
Find me one post where I said that LIV "would run out of money". I said the Saudis aren't going to fund a league that hemorrages cash for perpetuity. There was always going to be a limit to how long the Saudis were going to throw money at a concept that wasn't in the black.
They don't care about profit? LOL. Initially, no, they knew they'd pour a ton into this before they saw a return, but yes, at some point they wanted an extra strategy, a viable business, etc. LIV is losing money and has since inception. You aren't arguing that LIV, the actual operating league, was a financial success prior to the merger? Even LIVs own attorneys basically admitted in court LIV was lighting cash on fire.
The concept behind LIV (shot gun starts, team comps, loud music, etc.) didn't force change. You really think DJ ran off to LIV because he can wear shorts and wanted a team concept? He ran to LIV because he was given a crap ton of cash. So what forced change was the PIF throwing a crap ton of money at some random league concept that was able to peel off some big named PGA players. That and the prospect that LIV was gonna still come after the big names. It was the PIF money the PGA was weary of, not the actual concept of LIV.
Last offseason proved what wrong? If anything, the last offseason proved the the Saudis were serious about trying to make this a real business venture. They pushed the COO out after 8 months. They cut back on expenses, including some of the extravagant perks given to players. Even some of the pro-LIV media noted that the media tents at these events had taken a large step back in terms of amenities. They put the costs of travel, etc. back on the teams to pay with their team winnings. They signed a lopsided TV deal just to try to get some sort of penetration in the US market.
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You absolutely can parse the two because at the end of the day it's not LIV that's funding this merger. It's the PIF. And if some of the reports are true, LIV as we know it, might not even be a thing in a year or two.
Their merger with the PGA and DP happened because of their money. That's it. They were able to steal some top names and the threat of their money stealing more was the impetus here. Not their actual concept. Their actual concept has little traction outside of core fans. People weren't flocking to LIV because of 54 holes or shotgun starts or players wearing shorts or the whole team concept.
The part about making money or not making money is a vital piece of the puzzle. Yes, the end game was their entry into the world golf stratosphere and they clearly won that battle with Monahan's shocking turn. But at some point, if they couldn't get their foot in the PGA door, they were going to have to make a real decision on whether to keep throwing cash at a league that wasn't turning a profit. It's kind of hilarious that you guys think the Saudis were just gonna throw shits tons of money at this for years and years and years and not see some sort of return at some point. Again, and I asked this before, find a venture the Saudis were involved in where they just threw tons of money down a drain for years and years?
At the end of the day, Monahan with Dunne concluded they couldn't wait for the Saudis to get restless and didn't want to throws tens of millions at litigation and even risk having their secrets shared. So they made a deal.
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Jesus, you keep going off the deep end. So this past off-season did you miss all the changes to the PGA?? They did that on their own? It's the PGA that panicked about the LIV. Yet you keep ignoring or refusing to believe the bigger purses, separating the top players and giving them a bigger bonus fund had nothing to do with the LIV?? Seriously?? Now you rather make stupid statements then admit you were wrong. You are like Rory, spin, spin , spin and everyone knows it's bull crap.
The PGA from day one did everything wrong. Yet you were always there to defend and spin the story that the LIV was in trouble. The LIV/PIF played them like a fiddle. All in less then a year. Keep saying the LIV had no impact. The rest of your post was just a bunch of nonsense.
What drove LIV? Was it the concept or was it the money that bought some big name golfers? Between these two, what could make the new venture crumble - the shut down of LIV or the PIF saying, nah, we've decided to not put in all this cash anymore?
PS - I did misread your post above about changes to the tour and this offseason proved that. I misread that, thinking you were talking that this offseason proved that the LIV concept was a big success and making money. Apologies for effing that up. You are absolutely right that the money in LIV forced the PGA to pay their guys more.
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The Saudis bought peace figuring they had were in a long drawn out fight making some advances but happening too slow.
The PGA sold out for cash and a bone, to sooth their pride, that looked good to show but the meat was left with the Saudis
The PGA Commissioner was put in leadership of the merged unit, but in essences just a Saudi lackey with a title.
Some might feel the LIV might go away now, but it might just be the new venture that is a result of the merger and the LIV name going away means nothing.
The merged venture might be considered a PGA controlled unit, but the Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund will hold a minority stake and the percentage will be based on what the Saudis invest
The Beatles once sung money can't buy me love
the Saudis just proved that false
The PGA sold out for cash and a bone, to sooth their pride, that looked good to show but the meat was left with the Saudis
The PGA Commissioner was put in leadership of the merged unit, but in essences just a Saudi lackey with a title.
Some might feel the LIV might go away now, but it might just be the new venture that is a result of the merger and the LIV name going away means nothing.
The merged venture might be considered a PGA controlled unit, but the Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund will hold a minority stake and the percentage will be based on what the Saudis invest
The Beatles once sung money can't buy me love
the Saudis just proved that false
We may never know but the ownership stakes of each entity in the umbrella company would be interesting to see. Specifically, what kind of stake does the DP have? It can't be much. What do they have to offer? PIF had the cash, PGA had the TV, sponsors, legacy events, revenue streams. DP?
The PGA lost because of two lawsuits and a DOJ investigation. One against the LIV where they would be subject to "discovery" of inside information. That information would sink them in a second lawsuit about collusion and obviously help the DOJ investigation as this merger has done nothing to stop it. Not getting a dismissal last Friday left only one option.
The DOJ investigation can actually kill this deal.
As for the LIV going away is nonsense. The name will change. The format will change as there will a world of golfers available but there will be team events around the world that aren't the property of the PGA Tour or the DP Tour. Yasir created the format of this type of professional team concept and he isn't giving up his baby. As for the music playing while the players are on the course that isn't new or an LIV creation. Former European Tour stops and now DP Tour stops been doing it for awhile.
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One reason that the Saudis decided to buy rather then go thought the court system
A federal judge denied the Saudis sovereign immunity claims and ruled that the LIV's Saudi Arabian benefactors are subject to discovery and they feared what would come out of that would be disastrous for them in court and in the American public's eyes
The PGA also wanted to hide what they would be forced to reveal in the discovery motion the LIV demanded and the courts ruled that they would have to obey so with both having things needed hidden the Saudies were willing to buy silence and the PGA more than willing to allow the LIV to buy peace and keeping the PGA's backroom dealings hidden from public exposure and showing that they weren't as pure as the morning snow that they claimed to be
A federal judge denied the Saudis sovereign immunity claims and ruled that the LIV's Saudi Arabian benefactors are subject to discovery and they feared what would come out of that would be disastrous for them in court and in the American public's eyes
The PGA also wanted to hide what they would be forced to reveal in the discovery motion the LIV demanded and the courts ruled that they would have to obey so with both having things needed hidden the Saudies were willing to buy silence and the PGA more than willing to allow the LIV to buy peace and keeping the PGA's backroom dealings hidden from public exposure and showing that they weren't as pure as the morning snow that they claimed to be
Monahan gets to keep his job as PGA Tour commish and also get a shiny, new title of CEO for the new, merged golf entity,
Really?? Last Friday they lost the dismissal of the LIV lawsuit. We've talked about this. Are you having issues today? Distracted?
I think they were closer to breaking the Tour than you think. If Rahm goes and then they get Scheffler, the dam is close to bursting as players on Tour look around and think, "I better take the guaranteed money before it's too late." With the performance of the LIV players in the two majors, the argument that they were all washed up, didn't care, etc...was gone. And Kopeka, Rahm, Scheffler, DJ, Cam, Bryson etc, is the tipping point where the fan realizes the best golf is being played at LIV now.
I think we should tip our cap to the Saudi's. I personally feel like they have no place in golf, they're just sort of tasteless, wielders of grotesque amounts of money, with no historical connection to the game. But they did the right thing in the end and took a partnership to preserve the historical context of the game, rather than own 100% and run the whole thing into the ground.
Remains to be seen who the winners are. LIV guys no longer protected by the Saudi money. They seem to think they still are but the Saudi's are silent partners and will likely let Jay do what he will to try an even things out. The guys who didn't take the money are now aligned with the power that runs the game. Think it will turn out pretty well for them.
That’s not accurate. I explained to you already what the 9th Circuit ruling from last Friday was about. It was not a ruling on the dismissal request of the LIV lawsuit. It only dealt with the PIF and whether or not they would be subject to discovery in the suit and counter suit.
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For the 3rd time you are ignoring that Fridays decision required discovery on both sides!
It did no such thing. Why? For starters, the PGA (and LIV) were already subject to discovery due to the fact they were named in the lawsuit and countersuit months ago. So the 9th Circuit ruling had nothing to with discovery for the PGAT or LIV. They were already subject to it because they were the named parties. The only claim to stop discovery made by the PGAT was they argued with the lower court last month that issued the stay on PIF being required to submit to discovery was that if the PIF didn't have to while on appeal, neither should the PGA. The lower court denied that request when issuing the stay on the PIF order.
Let's do this again.
- Earlier this year, the PGA sought to add the PIF to their suit. And as a named party, they would be subject to discovery. The PIF argued in court that they were covered by sovereign immunity but two different lower court judges disagreed with their claim and allowed the PGAT to add PIF to the suit and seek discovery from them.
- The PIF filed an appeal with the 9th Circuit over the ruling. Given the appeal, the judge in the district court issued a stay on all PIF discovery by the PGAT until the appeal could be heard by the 9th Circuit.
- The PGAT then filed a motion with the 9th Circuit to immediately toss the appeal and not have this go to full hearings. The 9th Circuit rejected the motion on Friday, instead requiring briefs and a hearing to take place with the 9th Circuit.
The 9th Circuit ruling had nothing to do with an overall dismissal of the LIV lawsuit. It also had nothing to with the PGAT (or LIV) and their requirement to submit to discovery. Because they two entities were already subject and in the process of submitting documents, planning depositions, etc.
Yet the legal person the Golf Channel hired to exclusively cover the different lawsuits totally points to Fridays ruling why this agreement, not a binding contract, took a turn so quickly this weekend. Maybe the Golf Channel should hire you as their on air attorney. Or better yet the PGA Tour should hire you as there spin master.
You keep citing this but literally everything you google will show that what the 9th Circuit ruled on was strictly dealing with whether they would toss the PIF appeal OR make it go to a full hearing. So maybe you misheard what he said, or misunderstood what he said, I have no idea. The 9th Circuit ruling on Friday had nothing to dismissing the overall LIV lawsuit. You can literally look this up yourself if you choose.
The LIV Golf vs. PGA Tour antitrust case has reached an appeals roadblock that could delay proceedings
The expedited schedule attorneys for LIV Golf sought for the antitrust case filed against the PGA Tour last year has reached an appeals roadbloc
www.golfchannel.com
Motion to stay PGA Tour, LIV Golf discovery seen as a 'win' in LIV legal battle
A U.S. District Court Judge granted a motion that stayed the discovery process for LIV Golf against the PGA Tour while the initial ruling is argued in a federal court of appeals.
www.sportsbusinessjournal.com
Judge grants LIV Golf stay of discovery pending appeal, rules against PGA Tour in latest filing
The timeline for a trial could move well into 2024 and beyond.
golfweek.usatoday.com
Here is the a photo of the actual motion filed by the 9th Circuit. LIV isn't even a named party because this was just between the PGA and PIF over PIF having to submit to discovery. It says the motion is denied without prejudice (which means the PGA can still pursue their claim in the 9th Circuit).
I didn't hear differently or read incorrectly like you did today, again.You keep citing this but literally everything you google will show that what the 9th Circuit ruled on was strictly dealing with whether they would toss the PIF appeal OR make it go to a full hearing. So maybe you misheard what he said, or misunderstood what he said, I have no idea. The 9th Circuit ruling on Friday had nothing to dismissing the overall LIV lawsuit. You can literally look this up yourself if you choose.
The LIV Golf vs. PGA Tour antitrust case has reached an appeals roadblock that could delay proceedings
The expedited schedule attorneys for LIV Golf sought for the antitrust case filed against the PGA Tour last year has reached an appeals roadbloc
Motion to stay PGA Tour, LIV Golf discovery seen as a 'win' in LIV legal battle
A U.S. District Court Judge granted a motion that stayed the discovery process for LIV Golf against the PGA Tour while the initial ruling is argued in a federal court of appeals.
Judge grants LIV Golf stay of discovery pending appeal, rules against PGA Tour in latest filing
The timeline for a trial could move well into 2024 and beyond.
Here is the a photo of the actual motion filed by the 9th Circuit. LIV isn't even a named party because this was just between the PGA and PIF over PIF having to submit to discovery. It says the motion is denied without prejudice (which means the PGA can still pursue their claim in the 9th Circuit).
Interesting stories. If they PGA really thinks that playing virtual golf is great how could they mock the team concept of the LIV?
Maybe Phil was right all along. Actually Phil Tiger, Rory etc wanted a team concept, real golf events run by the players and Monahan said no. He then extends the silly season to block the players from making money after the FedEx. Yet some people think Monahan is a hero and winner in this.
sports.yahoo.com
Maybe Phil was right all along. Actually Phil Tiger, Rory etc wanted a team concept, real golf events run by the players and Monahan said no. He then extends the silly season to block the players from making money after the FedEx. Yet some people think Monahan is a hero and winner in this.
Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy tech league announces first team
The Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy-led tech golf league announced its first team and ownership group Thursday.
www.golfdigest.com
Turns out Phil Mickelson was right about LIV Golf
Mickelson called out the PGA Tour and forecast huge changes in golf. He was roasted, but in the end, he was right.
I didn't hear anything wrong. I actually read real reporting on that the 9th Circuit ruled upon, found a copy of the actual motion and response from the 9th Circuit. In no way did it have anything to do with the PGAT requesting the entire LIV lawsuit be tossed.
I am beginning to learn that you are the guy that even when evidence shows you are wrong, you claim you aren't. I mean you can keep banging this drum but anyone in this thread who reads the linked above will realize that you are incorrect here in your assessment of what the 9th Circuit ruled upon.
You didn't admit you read a post of mine wrong just this afternoon??? What the hell is wrong with you?
You forgot this just a couple of hours ago?? Now you are denying you said this??
"PS - I did misread your post above about changes to the tour and this offseason proved that. I misread that, thinking you were talking that this offseason proved that the LIV concept was a big success and making money. Apologies for effing that up. You are absolutely right that the money in LIV forced the PGA to pay their guys more."
I didn't read anything wrong with regards to the 9th Circuit ruling. Is this the part of the game where you now try to go off tangent to cover up the fact you are simply wrong here? I mean I get it's tough for you to simply say, "Yeah, looks like I have this wrong" given you seem to love to tell people who disagree with you how wrong they always are. But it's OK, as I said, anyone who reads this can see the evidence and know that you misstated what the 9th Circuit actually did on Friday.
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They haven't requested the entire LIV lawsuit to be tossed!! Neither side have filed anything yet. The deal isn't close to being done! It's an agreement to come to an agreement! If you actually paid attention there is no binding agreement yet. Jesus!! Watch the Golf Channel once in awhile. They can't file to drop lawsuits until the figure out the details and actually signs a contract. You didn't notice neither side having any details?
Uhhhhh..............
You are all over the place. We aren't talking about the pending end to litigation if the merger is finalized and signed upon.
We are talking about your claim that the 9th Circuit, last Friday (the only court ruling that came down on Friday in the matter), denied the "dismissal of the LIV lawsuit". That's false. The 9th Circuit did no such thing. They denied the PGAT motion to have the PIF appeal on protecting them from discovery under sovereign immunity tossed. The 9th Circuit denied the motion and set dates for both the PGAT and PIF to submit briefs on the matter. LIV isn't even a party to the 9th Circuit appeal. Only the PIF and Yasir Al-Rumayyan are.
That's it. That's all that happened on Friday.
Huh? This is your quote I responded to.
"Let's say it again. The 9th Circuit ruling on Friday had NOTHING to do with the PGAT requesting the entire LIV lawsuit be tossed."
Let me correct you again nobody requested the lawsuit to be tossed. You have issues and can't focus on the fight you want to fight. Go argue with someone else. You have been a complete idiot today. I like a good conversation conversation but it's you that can't focus.
You originally said they [PGA TOUR] "lost the dismissal of the LIV lawsuit" on Friday.
No such thing happened.
Maybe a good place to start is you explaining what you meant when you said "they lost the dismissal of the LIV lawsuit."
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No I've been right all along. I've been saying all along the PGA f'ed this from day one. You took the side of the PGA like Rory did and you got nothing right. Absolutely nothing! The PIF now is the Chairman of 3 tours and you hate to admit it. Again go argue elsewhere!
LOL, you didn't actually respond to the post or the points raised in it, instead doing what you typically do - try to shift the discussion in another direction.
Let's try this again, what did you mean when you said "they [PGA TOUR] lost the dismissal of the LIV lawsuit" on Friday?
👋 Bye. Tired of you complete nonsense. And you forgetting your own posts today is a bit disturbing for you. Get help. You are back on ignore.
Hahaha.
And there it is. The old I got caught being wrong, can't admit it so I am gonna take my ball and go home move. Even better, put someone on ignore that just proved you were slinging a falsity.
PS - If you still can read this, turns out I can get the putter fixed. Epoxy came loose. Golf Galaxy guy said he can heat up the putter head, soften the epoxy, remove the insert and re-epoxy it back to the face. Said he'd charge me like $15. Said it was an easy job.
Trojan horse theory. Let's get the tin foil hats out.
Since the announcement, there have been quite a few politicians, on both sides of the aisle really scrutinizing and calling out the deal. The feds are most certainly gonna sniff around this. The DOJ, who was investigating anti-trust issues with the PGA isnt going to just disappear now that there is basically a golf monopoly again.
LIV buys more PGA players for the team concept. They get access to the PGA TV partners and sponsors. US government blows up the deal. LIV says, oh well, but hey we got way more of your best players and now we have better TV deals and real sponsors.
