OT: Rutgers Frats
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Yes,Sigma Chi. National had a phone conference with interested brothers and alumni. Seemed like a bunch of bullshit reasons to me, but I'm not tuned in as much as others.
Heard she did the same thing at Bowling Green before she got here. She’s been slowly booting fraternities out of RU. She’s put in so many regulations that there’s a good chance every fraternity has violated one of them. She just punished them whenever she feels like it.
When that new house on Sicard was built, it was meant for a sorority. From some reason, Arnholt just doesn’t like fraternities.
Funny, I thought the proressors gave it a college feel.
The majority of students have nothing to do with any frat for four years. They cater to a small minority of white kids whom everyone else mostly makes fun of.
You’re like a caricature of a navel gazing academic teaching a subject that has no real world application.
The only thing I got from that call is a kid died at Penn State, so Rutgers decided to go on a purge of all fraternities that host parties, and National was their willing executioner. They didn't even have the decency to state publically the Xanax allegation was a lie. Smeared every single one of those kids as a Cosby style rapist.
Rutgers sees fraternity and social environments (Rutgersfest, tailgating, the alley, etc.) as nothing but liabilities. They don’t consider or care about it adding to the student experience. Damn shame. I see their view but I think it’s a scared of everything type of position
I would bet Rutgers perception amongst NJ HS students would dramatically increase just by bringing back Rutgersfest, the alley, and frats.
I would bet Rutgers perception amongst NJ HS students would dramatically increase just by bringing back Rutgersfest, the alley, and frats.
Writing?
Anyway, I'm speaking as a former student here, not a professor. In the late 90s and early 00s the frats were about the lamest thing one could associate with. They were considered a joke.
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The majority of students have nothing to do with any frat for four years. They cater to a small minority of white kids whom everyone else mostly makes fun of.[/QUOTE]
No offense but it is your loss. Take this from someone 50 years after joining and Talk to me if you have close college friends at the same point in time as me
The majority of students have nothing to do with any frat for four years. They cater to a small minority of white kids whom everyone else mostly makes fun of.[/QUOTE]
No offense but it is your loss. Take this from someone 50 years after joining and Talk to me if you have close college friends at the same point in time as me
No university, anywhere, wants them to exist anymore. You'll find varying degrees of tolerance, but they all want them to disappear, preferably without incident. They're nothing but a liability for the university now. Any university.
Anyone who still wants to organize charitable endeavors will be wholeheartedly welcomed by any university, so if that's your motivation to do good things as part of a group, that option is still wide open.
I DJ'd at many Greek events while I was in school. It all came to an end in 1988 with the Lambda Chi incident. Back in 2007, the administration forced the Band Fraternity, MYA, to merge with a national fraternity in their crackdown. And the band director, Tim Smith, did nothing to help the fraternity maintain its independence.
I know even back in the 80's the administration was anti-Greek. Way back then they wanted to confiscate their land and move them over to either Busch or Livingston, I forget which one.
If there was one fraternity that deserved to be put to an end it was that one.
Also pretty sure they were never even officially recognized by the university during my whole undergrad time (07-11).
Levaos why all the hate man? If you were ever harmed by a fraternity man then i apologize bc thats not what most are about.
I can tell you this -- from the outsider perspective, fraternal organizations probably will never make much sense. You have to live it to truly understand it. Its as it is written in John chapter 9 verse 25: "where once i was blind, now I can see"
The pledging experience completely changed my worldview, and being a part of the organization for what is now 11 years has completely changed my life. And its one of the things I point to with great distinction and pride.
The opinion of outsiders about our organizations is really irrelevant to us. Thats what the pundits will never understand. We dont care about the opinion of the outsider bc we know they dont know any better.
I can tell you this -- from the outsider perspective, fraternal organizations probably will never make much sense. You have to live it to truly understand it. Its as it is written in John chapter 9 verse 25: "where once i was blind, now I can see"
The pledging experience completely changed my worldview, and being a part of the organization for what is now 11 years has completely changed my life. And its one of the things I point to with great distinction and pride.
The opinion of outsiders about our organizations is really irrelevant to us. Thats what the pundits will never understand. We dont care about the opinion of the outsider bc we know they dont know any better.
I think the undergrads of Zeta Psi lost their way. Thats a fantastic alumni base (alpha chapter is Rutgers) and the history is as illustrious as any at rutgers. I hope they figure it out and get back to what made them a special org. Bc what they had become was a far cry from that.
The old houses like Delta Phi and Zeta Psi actually sent brothers to the Civil War.. likely on both sides.
I will blame Rutgers for deciding to boot them... in my view it is a long term strategy for fundraising. I remember a Doonesbury strip that was about football players meeting at a game and asking eachother where they went to college. The first said he went to "tech" or some specific school.. the other mentioned a name.. lets say Zeta Psi for example.. the the first said "Isn't that a fraternity?".. and he answered, "yeah, but its affiliated with a college".
I think that speaks to the issue. People who join Frats and Sororities want the most out of the "life" part of college life. They will have strong attachments... they are the traditionalists. They are generally great people to have as alums when fundraising.
When frats were big, I bet Rutgers took huge hits to fundraising when they came down hard on a fraternity.. for any reason. Alums who were frat guys might donate to their frat and to Rutgers. And when Rutgers is harsh toward their frat.. maybe Rutgers gets nothing.. maybe they get less than the usual.
The solution to that was.. no more frats. Without the frats, that problem does not exist. Those same type of traditionalists might choose another school.. or they might just become attached to Rutgers dorms or their fellow students in their field of study.. or sports teams.. problem solved.. Rutgers does not have to get in line behind a frat nor do they have to worry about coming down hard on a student organization for PC reasons.
Then when you add in the litigious nature of parents and people in-general.. and how frats and groups like, say, Duke lacrosse players became whipping boys (wait.. is that racist? I think it might be.. what should be said instead?) .. in any case.. any lawsuit against a Rutgers Frat would certainly add in Rutgers as a co-defendant.. its the deep-pockets thing that lawyers do.
No more frats and you don't have that problem either.
The frats themselves had their own problems.. it actually began in the 60s.. they seemed old fashioned and too establishment.
The movie Animal House actually revived them a bit.. but the new members expected every house to be a combination of Delta and Omega.. basically have a house like Omega with parties like Delta.
I think that was the best time for frats at Rutgers.. I know I had great times there... and unlike at many schools.. the way you could go to any house for a party.. and be very welcome at the vast majority.. that was fantastic. Many nights in September it was like you were doing a pub crawl.. hitting up 5-6 frats easily.
The biggest service the frats gave to the Rutgers community were those parties (at the good houses that could host a larger crowd more comfortably). Better than any bar.. save maybe The Court and Melody on good nights. Many many Rutgers marriages came between people who met at a frat party... and not including a member of that frat.
After that era.. all-male organizations have been attacked on all sides. Add that to the hurdles erected by the Rutgers administration and I think it would be near impossible to come back. Consider that the National organizations behind some of these frats wants them to be DRY. Those organization fight for their lives as well.. dwindling membership (and dues and donations).. make it hard to pay the bills.. insurance claims.. exposure to possibly criminal charges.. and then you have members who lost all sense of reality and humanity (consider that Penn State pledge who was killed by idiocy).
Frats are endangered and will be missed.. but many more will never know what they are missing.
I will blame Rutgers for deciding to boot them... in my view it is a long term strategy for fundraising. I remember a Doonesbury strip that was about football players meeting at a game and asking eachother where they went to college. The first said he went to "tech" or some specific school.. the other mentioned a name.. lets say Zeta Psi for example.. the the first said "Isn't that a fraternity?".. and he answered, "yeah, but its affiliated with a college".
I think that speaks to the issue. People who join Frats and Sororities want the most out of the "life" part of college life. They will have strong attachments... they are the traditionalists. They are generally great people to have as alums when fundraising.
When frats were big, I bet Rutgers took huge hits to fundraising when they came down hard on a fraternity.. for any reason. Alums who were frat guys might donate to their frat and to Rutgers. And when Rutgers is harsh toward their frat.. maybe Rutgers gets nothing.. maybe they get less than the usual.
The solution to that was.. no more frats. Without the frats, that problem does not exist. Those same type of traditionalists might choose another school.. or they might just become attached to Rutgers dorms or their fellow students in their field of study.. or sports teams.. problem solved.. Rutgers does not have to get in line behind a frat nor do they have to worry about coming down hard on a student organization for PC reasons.
Then when you add in the litigious nature of parents and people in-general.. and how frats and groups like, say, Duke lacrosse players became whipping boys (wait.. is that racist? I think it might be.. what should be said instead?) .. in any case.. any lawsuit against a Rutgers Frat would certainly add in Rutgers as a co-defendant.. its the deep-pockets thing that lawyers do.
No more frats and you don't have that problem either.
The frats themselves had their own problems.. it actually began in the 60s.. they seemed old fashioned and too establishment.
The movie Animal House actually revived them a bit.. but the new members expected every house to be a combination of Delta and Omega.. basically have a house like Omega with parties like Delta.
I think that was the best time for frats at Rutgers.. I know I had great times there... and unlike at many schools.. the way you could go to any house for a party.. and be very welcome at the vast majority.. that was fantastic. Many nights in September it was like you were doing a pub crawl.. hitting up 5-6 frats easily.
The biggest service the frats gave to the Rutgers community were those parties (at the good houses that could host a larger crowd more comfortably). Better than any bar.. save maybe The Court and Melody on good nights. Many many Rutgers marriages came between people who met at a frat party... and not including a member of that frat.
After that era.. all-male organizations have been attacked on all sides. Add that to the hurdles erected by the Rutgers administration and I think it would be near impossible to come back. Consider that the National organizations behind some of these frats wants them to be DRY. Those organization fight for their lives as well.. dwindling membership (and dues and donations).. make it hard to pay the bills.. insurance claims.. exposure to possibly criminal charges.. and then you have members who lost all sense of reality and humanity (consider that Penn State pledge who was killed by idiocy).
Frats are endangered and will be missed.. but many more will never know what they are missing.
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I have heard some of that story from friends who are members.. and who are rebuilding that house themselves from the inside.. with family members. Really quite an interesting story there.
The alumni org couldn't believe how the then-current members treated the house. When was it.. some year ago now.. they needed to kick them all out.. and the guys trashed the place. Is that a generational thing? Is it a case that the type of people who would pledge a frat in the 2010s just suck?
Certainly these guys from the 70s, 80s and 90s don't suck. They give so much of themselves to bring that house back.
We've seen anti-frat hate on this board. Maybe that bias is preventing "normal" people who might be interested in joining frats and providing the type of qualities a membership-run organization needs. Maybe we see that same thing in other fraternal groups.. people aren't joining.. Elks, etc.
Oh.. I also heard the unrecognized status was a choice at one point. That is, when Rutgers put up so many hurdles for frats to jump through just to recruit members (their lifeblood), some frats viewed it as recognized or die slowly. Being "recognized" did not get the fraternities anything but grief. its not like Rutgers was helping them with anything at that point. Being "recognized" just granted you a list of things you cannot do... like rush freshman. In the old days the Frosh would rush.. maybe pledge 1st or 2nd semesters... live in the house in years 2 and 3 and move out for senior year in an off campus house with friends... or even your (future) wife.
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The idea that fraternities are crucial to the collegiate experience is as preposterous as the notion athletics are crucial. But that doesn't mean either one cannot contribute to that experience, and in a healthy college environment both can, and often do, play a role.
I'm glad I didn't pledge a fraternity, but I found what at the time I thought was my perfect niche on campus and in many ways that association served the same function. Many, many other students do the same. So I don't shed any tears about fraternities dying out, as the negative publicity they occasionally garner makes the entire university look bad.
And can we stop with citing numbers of dollars raised for charity? Some of the worst people in the world buy PR doing the same thing. Glad you do it, but if you're going to tell me that's the reason for your existence, make that point elsewhere.
But the bigger issue is that society is changing to the point where what fraternities APPEAR to represent has become archaic. I stress that I don't think that's entirely fair, but it is true. Anything all-male is bad, anything all-female is empowering. As non-subtle as that can be at times, the message is also sent that wanting to associate with other males is somehow in itself misogynistic. I don't understand that view, and I yell about it all the time in other places, but it's certainly true. Left alone, I would not be surprised if they only had another generation or two before they started to die out.
And of course, this is not the South. Having transferred back home after starting college in the old Confederacy, I can tell you the fraternity system at Rutgers wasn't anything special even back in the 80s. It really didn't hold a candle to places where fraternities are the most influential entities on campus (outside of the football coach's office, perhaps), with graceful mansions and sports cars in the parking lot. But it served a purpose for enough people to justify its existence. And that should be enough for any office in the administration.
I'm glad I didn't pledge a fraternity, but I found what at the time I thought was my perfect niche on campus and in many ways that association served the same function. Many, many other students do the same. So I don't shed any tears about fraternities dying out, as the negative publicity they occasionally garner makes the entire university look bad.
And can we stop with citing numbers of dollars raised for charity? Some of the worst people in the world buy PR doing the same thing. Glad you do it, but if you're going to tell me that's the reason for your existence, make that point elsewhere.
But the bigger issue is that society is changing to the point where what fraternities APPEAR to represent has become archaic. I stress that I don't think that's entirely fair, but it is true. Anything all-male is bad, anything all-female is empowering. As non-subtle as that can be at times, the message is also sent that wanting to associate with other males is somehow in itself misogynistic. I don't understand that view, and I yell about it all the time in other places, but it's certainly true. Left alone, I would not be surprised if they only had another generation or two before they started to die out.
And of course, this is not the South. Having transferred back home after starting college in the old Confederacy, I can tell you the fraternity system at Rutgers wasn't anything special even back in the 80s. It really didn't hold a candle to places where fraternities are the most influential entities on campus (outside of the football coach's office, perhaps), with graceful mansions and sports cars in the parking lot. But it served a purpose for enough people to justify its existence. And that should be enough for any office in the administration.
If I recall correctly, when I was a potential pledge at Rutgers in 1961 and 1962 there were 26 fraternities at Rutgers. Most were relatively small. The percentage of the student body in frats was less than 25 percent. Many years before that, the percentage may have been much higher, but in the modern history of Rutgers frat members have never been a major portion of the student body. Because of lack of information and naivete I never hooked up with the right fraternity and never joined one. That was at least partially my mistake. I have had many relatives and friends who were happily frat members at other colleges. Since graduation I have met many Rutgers fratters with whom I have much in common and I associate with them often today, sometimes like we were brothers.
I have nothing against fraternities and think they serve a valuable and social purpose, even though it did not work out for me. There were many problems with the social scene and student life at Rutgers when I was a student and I believe they have continued to this day, including the lack of loyalty of the alumni to the University. I think it is naïve to not think this is in part do to the lack of fraternity infrastructure, for whatever reason, at Rutgers NB.
I have nothing against fraternities and think they serve a valuable and social purpose, even though it did not work out for me. There were many problems with the social scene and student life at Rutgers when I was a student and I believe they have continued to this day, including the lack of loyalty of the alumni to the University. I think it is naïve to not think this is in part do to the lack of fraternity infrastructure, for whatever reason, at Rutgers NB.
Frats and Sororities are very American. I wasn’t in o e but it’s sad what’s happened to them at RU. Virtually every big school I ever see has a much nicer row of big beautiful houses that look well maintained and cared for.
Sure you were...
Lambda Alpha Chi (LAX)
(lambda is really ^ but we’ll work around it);)
So, so typical of you. You think mockery is of value in making an argument. I suppose that is why people like yo engage in mockery as if it shows you understand something. And you want to be on the side of the presumed majority who mock.
Fraternities were created by college students for their own purposes... because it provided something that colleges were lacking.
This nations government was modeled after the ancient Greeks.. and so were fraternities here. Fraternities are made up of students... students who study in different fields.
That you show such a lack of maturity on the subject and resort to arguing on such a low level tells me much more about you than it does about the average fraternity member who you mock.
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I hear alot of people who compare the fraternity life of schools based on the size of the houses. Thats a one dimensionsal way of looking at it, as if the size of the house and the amount of money tied to the organization is somehow reflective of influence, power, prestige or whatever that young people gravitate toward.
I can tell you that I wasnt attracted by those things explicitly. I was mostly attracted to non tangible things -- like brotherhood and having a shared ethos. The experience you have as a pledge is akin to the Michael Douglas movie "The Game". Its an amazing one. No group will ever go so far out of their way to create an experience for you again in your life.
So what I appreciate about fraternity is the amorphous. The things you cant touch but you can feel. These things are unique and they dont die with the houses. They live on forever as long as the fraternity membership lives on, because the lifeblood is the membership, not the house
Agree with all of that but will say communal living in a dorm is much different than a brick and mortar place you can call your own.
I genuinely feel sorry for you
That is nothing new... the banning of fraternities. In fact, the origin of the Princeton Eating clubs is one of ban of fraternities in 1855... 163 years ago. It was not uncommon then and it is not uncommon now.
Fraternal organizations are as ancient as universities themselves. In some parts of the world, the students used fraternal organizations to take power away from the university structure and gain some control of their lives while at university. In others the universities would outlaw such organizations and had total control to do what they want with students.
American Universities were largely modeled after those in England and northern Europe. There, the university faculty controlled everything. In southern Europe it was largely student controlled. On the CE board there is often talk of how liberal ideology has taken over universities.. especially in blue states.
The idea that all-male, mostly white students.. who are largely more traditional and conservative than the general student body.. that they have an organization they control... that is too much for some to understand. That they can possibly benefit from the efforts of the members before them and the relationships built.. again.. too much for some to take. And in 1855.. that the customers of Princeton university.. the students.. would have these houses that the university did not control.. too much for them.
The more "professors" like LevaosLectures denigrate fraternities the more the case for them is made. Even Hitler allowed fraternities to exist (so that he could more easily identify and control the subversives who would join such organizations).
That sums it up well.
Here's the Harvard Crimson's take on that same subject.
And I suppose the same holds true for black fraternities = empowering (all organizations that students run themselves are empowering).
I wonder how Harvard and others will handle banning fraternities but defending their right to take legacies over more qualified students.
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I think I should put my defense of frats in context for a moment.
No problem with people who do not join frats or do not join anything else. For the average student with modest goals.. and that describes many of us.. frats should be additive to your college experience. But, if you are a driven academic who wants to excel and put everything into schoolwork.. I recommend not joining. and not have a social life at all. Be a scholarly monk.
Plenty of frat members put much more into schoolwork than what they put into partying or helping the frat. That's fine too.. it actually describes most members.
I did know a guy who did everything very well.. a driven individual who had a great fraternity social life.. served the fraternity well and he excelled at academics.. but he would be the exception who proves the rule. Driven. Disciplined. You couldn't catch him wasting time if you tried.
As an aside.. when myself and others mention this guy I often say, "Who'da thunk that drive and discipline and effort would be the key to success?" He had some good role models as a jumping off point.. but really, it was all drive and aiming for the top. Won't mention the name but he headed a Fortune.. well, lets be modest on his behalf.. a Fortune 500 company.
The majority of problems seen in frats today are also seen outside frats. When universities abandoned the concept of "in locus parentis" (in place of parents) kids in school have started down that slippery slope of limitless experimenting while feeling invulnerable. Since kids are maturing emotionally later and later in life.. since they largely do not have to face real world responsibilities before college.. they seem less capable of self control and seem to feel less responsibility toward others. I think the whole selfie thing and social media addictions are just adding to that.
No problem with people who do not join frats or do not join anything else. For the average student with modest goals.. and that describes many of us.. frats should be additive to your college experience. But, if you are a driven academic who wants to excel and put everything into schoolwork.. I recommend not joining. and not have a social life at all. Be a scholarly monk.
Plenty of frat members put much more into schoolwork than what they put into partying or helping the frat. That's fine too.. it actually describes most members.
I did know a guy who did everything very well.. a driven individual who had a great fraternity social life.. served the fraternity well and he excelled at academics.. but he would be the exception who proves the rule. Driven. Disciplined. You couldn't catch him wasting time if you tried.
As an aside.. when myself and others mention this guy I often say, "Who'da thunk that drive and discipline and effort would be the key to success?" He had some good role models as a jumping off point.. but really, it was all drive and aiming for the top. Won't mention the name but he headed a Fortune.. well, lets be modest on his behalf.. a Fortune 500 company.
The majority of problems seen in frats today are also seen outside frats. When universities abandoned the concept of "in locus parentis" (in place of parents) kids in school have started down that slippery slope of limitless experimenting while feeling invulnerable. Since kids are maturing emotionally later and later in life.. since they largely do not have to face real world responsibilities before college.. they seem less capable of self control and seem to feel less responsibility toward others. I think the whole selfie thing and social media addictions are just adding to that.
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You don’t have DU on your ass like every other lax player I knew in the early 90s???
No, we mostly have politicians to blame. People who look to gain power by pretending to care and championing causes. Fraternities are consolidated groups with identities, thus making them targets and the poster boys for things that go on everywhere, with or without formal structures. By targeting them instead of the actual issues, you misrepresent the issues as belonging to them when it’s rampant throughout campus. Power is then gained for a minority way smaller than fraternities, and brotherhoods are then lost.
Dig deeper professor. Most of us don’t sit in a bubble protected by tenure. Would love to see your kind try to survive outside of that bubble after decades within. Would be terrific reality television.
How in the hell did you play football and have time for a fraternity and studies. I could barely fit football and studies in, let alone add a fraternity into the equation. I commend you on your time management skills. I would have been put on probation the 1st semester, then flunked out by the second..
I lived at 26 Union for 2 years - fun years in the frat but even a better location for food, bars, etc.
Both of my kids are Greek in their schools - the attitude towards Greeks has changed dramatically. Every school we toured used the Greeks as a recruiting tool to HS students to say how cool and social they are. On the inside, the schools take an antagonistic view of Greeks, looking/creating ways to punish and restrict them. I'm not defending or attacking frats/sororities but the schools are very hypocritical of their treatment. If they don't want Greeks, then the schools need to have the integrity (balls) to eliminate them and deal with the consequences.
Both of my kids are Greek in their schools - the attitude towards Greeks has changed dramatically. Every school we toured used the Greeks as a recruiting tool to HS students to say how cool and social they are. On the inside, the schools take an antagonistic view of Greeks, looking/creating ways to punish and restrict them. I'm not defending or attacking frats/sororities but the schools are very hypocritical of their treatment. If they don't want Greeks, then the schools need to have the integrity (balls) to eliminate them and deal with the consequences.
Have not been on campus recently- so there are none on Union, but 8 total on Mine and College Ave?
I think from a strictly legal perspective RU has more liability in the alley and Rutgersfest because it was behind the organization of those events, versus the fraternities who in my view should be held responsible for any bad acts before the school.
I find the Rutgersfest situation most frustrating because it was solely because of people with no school affiliation that there were issues and the NBPD was totally useless and antagonistic.
Based on what I have read, the fraternity crackdown is more universal nationally after kids passed away at a bunch of other schools. I know the school in Central PA had a big crack down and my friends who were in frats at other places have seen changes as well.
Correct. Sororities do not have parties in their houses so there is less risk of any incidents in those lettered houses now. I believe sororities actually have rules that forbid any men inside their house unless there is a charity event or mixer going on.
