I agree you shouldn’t go into a lot of debt to get a college degree and most of them are students that want to go out of state or their “Dream” school. Parent who should know better allow them to make the decision without fully looking at the economic situation and the major is probably more important than the actual school they decide to attend. I don’t even think students that have C average should be going to college because they never really put the effort in high school. Those students are most likely to fail in college and drop out without a degree.
OT: The New Ivies
- Thread starter Morrischiano
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None of my kids are handy, their dad doesn’t even own a proper tool box. And they are all excellent students. Oldest was valedictorian, middle is top 5 and youngest is probably smarter than both. Plus the two oldest already got athletic scholarships and the youngest will as well. I also have enough money saved to pay for undergrad and masters at any college for each kid. So not going to college wouldn’t make much sense for them.
The kid no was referencing was a D3 athlete and loved working with his hands while not being a great student. So yes, he’s much smarter than their friends who are borrowing 100 k plus to figure out what they want to do.
The fight to get a B or a C HS student should start at a great CC…find one that has a great record of transferring their credits and go that route.
We made the mistake with our 2nd…great track athlete - not “Olympic” grade but where Ramapo College Track coach really wanted him. But they don’t offer scholarships…
40k first year to have him hate it…a total of 5k for the next 2 years at Bergen CC and most credits transferred.,,
Bingo.
Not one of the "dO a tRaDe" parents has kids that skipped college on this board. And in many cases, they went to OOS schools that aren't worth it over a Montclair never mind Rutgers.
As with everything, it's one rule for them and another for others.
I think a lot of it has to do with knowing your child and trying your best to steer them in the right direction
Part of the reason we only have one was to do our best to be able to provide for her in every tangible way while being realistic w expectations and setting her up for success on her own
If she’s in high school and decides she wants to cut hair for a living, yet she’s getting straight A’s, Wel have a conversion about the money you can make doing that (which can be very good in the right setting) vs being a dermatologist and going to a ; year school, plus med school, residency, etc
Selfishly, if she choose beauty school, it’ll mean less money out of our pockets and more for retirement
But ultimately it’s up to her, and Wel do our best to guide her based on het strengths, passions and our own life experiences
Part of the reason we only have one was to do our best to be able to provide for her in every tangible way while being realistic w expectations and setting her up for success on her own
If she’s in high school and decides she wants to cut hair for a living, yet she’s getting straight A’s, Wel have a conversion about the money you can make doing that (which can be very good in the right setting) vs being a dermatologist and going to a ; year school, plus med school, residency, etc
Selfishly, if she choose beauty school, it’ll mean less money out of our pockets and more for retirement
But ultimately it’s up to her, and Wel do our best to guide her based on het strengths, passions and our own life experiences
That's all true- the problem seems to be people who want to guide others' children. So for example, who, when it comes to their kids, they should get to an expensive private school and major in the liberal arts major of their choice, but when it comes to a poor kid, no matter his or her talents, should be directed to a trade, or if he's lucky, a community college.
Each kid is different, and each situation is also unique, so while something may seem good on the outside, it’s hard to determine that because we’re not privy to what’s going on inside the walls of the home with the child
Although College certainly paid dividends for my wife and I, It is not for everyone and I think at least in high school, too many kids are either forced to go to college or are guilted into thinking that is the right decision.
I feel that college is either forced upon or guilted into a lot of kids - there’s other viable options out there, but each potential choice should be met with a transparent and in depth conversation so the child’s expectations aren’t out of whack
It's funny- as I think about my youth...As I ended up not going to college or a trade school but hired directly by IBM out of HighSchool. And little would most kids understand- work is so much harder than college. You pretty much need to ace every single assignment without fail.
But, while I came out of HS with somewhere around a high 80's low 90's average, I was a horrible student and jumping right into college courses may have really sucked. Unfortunately- due to circumstances, my Mother had died when I was 10 y/o and she had been the one who had stayed on our studies. I was in advanced classes anyway in 7/8th grades but then I just got bored and lazy. After 9th grade, I don't think I ever took a book home unless if right before a big test and then I would spend an evening skimming whatever book with the "intent" to make a cheat sheet no bigger than 2x2. And little did I know- that was the best for of studying for a test ever and I never had to pull out the cheat sheets. lol So, I pretty much Aced every test I took but never did homework or did much participation. So- I just would not have been ready. Going straight to work was much better for me.
Now, if I had been able to go to a top 4 year school a few years later- I would have done so much better as working had me so much more prepared.
This is why I often say that a CC is so much smarter for some kids- they can find out if school is right for them or if they should go straight to a trade or work. And it doesn't drop a 100k loan in your lap as you are trying to figure it out.
I have plenty of friends who did the 4 year thing and are now working with their hands.
For the most part, I think OOS schools are a waste of money. Hell, working along side plenty of ivy leaguers makes me think even going the ivy route is a waste of money.
poor kids don't pay for college, especially talented ones. you continue to live in your own little made up world.
CC is a very valueable but underused tool
Nowadays, you can get into some pretty good OOS schools as well from there
A family we go to church with has a son who went Brookdale and now goes to Boston Uhivsrsity
I knew you could get into good state schools from cc but wasn’t sure about oos schools
good point- I usually looked at CC's and state schools or other 4 year schools that are in the same towns.
our youngest went to Bergen CC and his credits could have transferred pretty much anywhere in state.
when I was at the age to decide- I lived just outside of Poughkeepsie NY and Dutchess CC was a great school and even then, most of their credits would transfer over to Marist. But then again, both of those schools were pretty much just a breeding area for future IBM...so they were always tied together
A poor kid with talents who can get into an Ivy might pay even less than if they went to a community college. Problem is if their HS doesn't provide them the opportunity to shine.
My wife works at a HS with a lot if "poor" kids. Every year they meed with guidance multiple times and the message is always if you qualify for free lunch($67,200 ) you get free state college in NJ
looks like that went into effect last year- expanding from 2 year CC to 4 year state colleges- including Rutgers NB...Doesn't cover books, transportation or R&B if needed.
And a sliding scale for families over $65k
Isn't it amazing though, when 67K is "poor"
just tuition and fees- about $16k per year R&B/Books/Travel are still out of pocket
I'll ask her about that but I'm not sure. She made it seem like it's all free......
If a kid from a "low income" family, which I believe is 45k or less, gets into Princeton or most Ivies, it's truly 100%. Everything you mention.
Princeton announced Sept. 8 that, starting next fall, undergraduates from most families that earn up to $100,000 annually will not have to pay for tuition or room and board at the University, and that families earning as much as $300,000 annually will also receive additional support.
Princeton Will Be Free for Families Earning Under $100,000
Princeton announced Sept.
paw.princeton.edu
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For State schools and CC, I believe it went up to 67.5 in 2023…and a sliding scale if a family is over tgat.
Colleges With the Best Financial Aid | BestColleges
College is increasingly expensive, but schools with the most generous financial aid meet 100% of financial need with no loans for all or most students.
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Congrats to your son and you. As for these protester punks, send them all to Palestine to fight or kick out Hamas and rebuild Gaza. Bullshit is cheap, kiddies
I'm sure most CC qualifiers will commute when they use Community College Opportunity Grants to pay their way.
Mercer County Community College does offer housing, but can't say grants will cover it.
As for the those who go to a New Jersey four-year public University : my guess would be , unless the cost of housing is included, most who are able to use the Garden State Guarantee will pick a College close to home so they can live at home without worrying about rent and food cost.
I mean- I went to a public high school that ranks in the top 100, probably did then too...and something like 1/3 of my class went to community college when, at that time, many if not most parents there could have paid for at least a state school. So I am not sure there is guilting.
What I would say is college grads, as a proven fact, make more and have better health outcomes. So unless it's a kid who really can't keep up with the coursework it's not the worst thing.
I agree. But we're dealing with people who think Clemson is Harvard but the kid whose parents make 5 figures need to go to community college.
They also think college is a jobs program. Likely because they're scared of the result if college is for thinking.
Right so if the parents make 70k, just go to community college. Bc they aren't affording the 30k RU costs all in, and it sure as hell isn't commutable from the parts of North and South Jersey where even that is high income.
Meanwhile if you're rich though go to Tampa and Clemson lol
Ivies have single digit acceptance.
RU is free if the parents make 60ks or less.
And for the overwhelming bulk of people who 1) can't get into an Ivy and 2) make 68k or more but still can't afford 30k+ a year...tough noogies?
Seems like there is probably a better way then "just go to community college" employed by most of the civilized world.
Because without that, your generation is going to really lack the nurses and doctors among other professionals desperately needed.
But, experts say the numbers remain relatively low, with just 21% of county college students in New Jersey receiving a bachelor’s degree within six years — even though 80% of students say that was their plan when they started school.
Likewise, I also attended a very good public high school. One of the best in the state
Granted, I graduated 25 years ago, but there was no pushing anyone I knew towards police, fire, military, trades, etc.
It was all college, college, college
County colleges weren't looked down or frowned upon by the guidance counselors, but they let it be known that it's to be used as a steppingstone, not an end game
For the local PD a community college degree was required. I know this because they told us lol. Fire- I think most of NJ outside of cities is volunteer. Military, they were literally outside the cafeteria even as Iraq and Afghanistan were heating up and a few kids went (again from families who could have afforded college then). Trades, I don't know, but I would imagine those are bigger in the local vocational schools.
And...I know kids that IMO were not college ready when they graduated, went to CC, now have very good white collar jobs. So there was some logic there. Unfortunately I also know people I graduated with who stayed local, did not get a 4 year degree and succumbed to addiction. IMO, there is something to be said for college making you think an consider things you might not have otherwise not have.
We really need to move beyond the idea that college is a jobs training program. There are multiple posters here with jobs that don't require degrees that they say are quite lucrative. If that's to be believed, I haven't see any say they should have skipped college...it's not just about money.
I agree it's not a jobs training program; where my qualms lie is that guidance counselors, along with parents, are there to help guide teenagers into career altering decisions
Fortunately, I had two good parents who helped me along the way; other kids however, some of whom were my friends, didn't have that luxury
I could see it a mile away that these kids weren't meant for college, let alone a 4 year situation
Yet the guidance conselors didn't do anything to disuagde them from going away and racking up debt; rather, they gave them a list of options according to what the kid was looking for
Knowing the kid and seeing their grades, I couldn't believe, at 18, that they were being steered in this direction
County college, which at the time was less than $70 per credit, while holding down a part time job would have been the move if they were so inclined to attend school
Yet advising these kids to go away to 4 year, knowing their chances for failure were massive, was a huge disservice IMO
People who make 70k aren’t paying 30 for Rutgers either. At least not according to RU’s own website. But keep trying
And yea, if rich people want to spend 70 grand to send their kid to Tampa it’s their money.
Finally, for the umpteenth time, I told my niece to go to community college when she realized she hated the place she originally went on a sports scholarship. She went for 3 semesters before transferring to a state school. And my own daughter, who graduated HS in 3 years, will be taking classes at a community college while she waits to enroll early at the P4 school she got a scholarship to. And you will ignore these facts as always and then claim “people” want poor kid to go to CC but not their own.
Unless you were in the meeting with the guidance counselor, you don’t know what the counselor suggested. You even said it was what the kid was looking for. The counselor might get into trouble with the parents dissuade the student from college. It’s really the parent fault who jointly made the decision with their kid. When I went to HS 52 years ago, I think the counselor spoke to me for 4-5 minutes since he had 500 kids to counsel.
Honestly, college was both for me. There were all sorts of fulfilling courses in philosophy and political science - and figuring out what I actually wanted to do - but had to also have a degree that would translate to a career.
It’s actually the same advice I give to undergrads. “Cool, you think psychology is fun. Great. But make sure you’re filling out the rest of your curriculum with math and science”.
I think the exact opposite. Of course the primary value of a degree is education, but the problem people aren't appreciating is that all education isn't created equal. You want to be an art history or gender studies major? Have at it, but then don't complain about the costs or ROI.
I do think that at day 1- being a college graduate is a huge help in a new job. Not as much for the knowledge but the discipline...But- all things equal and two people with equal mindsets and one is and one isn't a college grad, withing a year- they are pretty much on equal ground.
excluding careers that really do require a very specific "taught" knowledge base
