Pac12 dissolution discussion

[Panthergrowl13]

talk about Pitt

Pit Pit Pit
🙃

I reference Pitt and the ACC because I am familiar with those schools.

My reference to specific numbers add clarity to the discussion at hand.

Some discussion was centered about if/when Florida State will become an AAU University.

If you compare the Top 4 Schools in Florida and their respective annual Research Budget, you get some perspective.

Annual Research Expenditures:

University of Florida: $0.942 Billion (AAU Research University)
Florida State: $0.350 Billion
USF: $0.333 Billion
UCF: $0.239 Billion

Now how do these numbers compare to the Annual Research Expenditures of the 5 ACC AAU schools.

Duke: $1.196 Billion
UNC: $1.160 Billion
Pitt: $1.106 Billion
GIT: $1.09 Billion
UVA: $0.652 Billion

Which school will be the 2nd AAU School in Florida.

Additionally, the discussion also revolved about the financial importance of Research in comparison to Sports financing. The B1G schools receiving $70 million annually is great (would like the ACC get closer to that number) but is in reality would be about 6 cents on the dollar (if Pitt received $ 70 million per year).

By the way US News "Americas Best Graduate Schools" 2024 will be coming out in about a week.

Your a Rutgers guy so I'll let you discuss some of the specifics on how Rutgers is doing in the different rankings.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[RUTGERS95]

I don’t know that I believe ESPN will open up the ACC contract and give more money at a time they are under pressure from Disney to cut costs, but I am confident that if ESPN did offer to increase the annual payout it would only be in return for a significant extension in the contract and GOR length (as they have done before when the ACC added teams).

It would be interesting to see what schools like FSU would do, when faced with the opportunity to improve their finances over what the current contract would pay over the next 12 years, but in return forego their chance to get out to the B1G or SEC at any time in the next couple of decades.

they are not
on top of that, ABC/NBC has other contractual obligations that will eat into any view that the ACC get's additional revenue.

ESPN is keeping monies ready for the SEC and no one else. The ACC will be broken up next go round as BIG and SEC absorb some schools. No one is paying for a conference that will be drastically different once the GOR is opened up.

What panther and other ACC folks fail to realize is that any opening of the GOR, opens for dissolution or leaving. A contract that is renegotiated has to be opened for dissolution first. You open the GOR to work the numbers, you open the door to poaching

 

[kupuna133]

they are not
on top of that, ABC/NBC has other contractual obligations that will eat into any view that the ACC get's additional revenue.

ESPN is keeping monies ready for the SEC and no one else. The ACC will be broken up next go round as BIG and SEC absorb some schools. No one is paying for a conference that will be drastically different once the GOR is opened up.

What panther and other ACC folks fail to realize is that any opening of the GOR, opens for dissolution or leaving. A contract that is renegotiated has to be opened for dissolution first. You open the GOR to work the numbers, you open the door to poaching

Agreed. That was an attorney interpretation that discussed the length of contract being a detriment to survival. Once the veil is pierced it is pierced for all. So if the GOR or any part of the contract is “renegotiated” it is opened up for all. Schools that seek to leave now there is an opportunity.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Agreed. That was an attorney interpretation that discussed the length of contract being a detriment to survival. Once the veil is pierced it is pierced for all. So if the GOR or any part of the contract is “renegotiated” it is opened up for all. Schools that seek to leave now there is an opportunity.

exactly

much of the talk in this thread is pure conjecture, bs, and hear say/wishful thinking. You can tell who has experience in life vs those that do not. there is also A LOT of stupidity here from somewhat intelligent persons. Some, no many, need to step away and stop exposing their ignorance.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I keep hearing in the back of my mind; the grass is not always greener

 

[airspace]

ESPN does not have money for the SEC. Disney is planning on cutting 7000 jobs and looking to tighten the budget on ESPN. With cord cutting only to increase, that much less for ESPN in the future. Let alone the obligations they made to the NFL.

The Big 10 aligning with Fox is looking better and better.

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

Agreed. That was an attorney interpretation that discussed the length of contract being a detriment to survival. Once the veil is pierced it is pierced for all. So if the GOR or any part of the contract is “renegotiated” it is opened up for all. Schools that seek to leave now there is an opportunity.

That's the point I was trying to make in regard to the GOR not lasting until 2036.

The risk is fighting it alone; hence, the prevailing thought is multiple schools will join forces and go after it together, thereby mitigating the risk (financial and legal) and increasing chances for success across the board.

 

[SF88]

they are not
on top of that, ABC/NBC has other contractual obligations that will eat into any view that the ACC get's additional revenue.

ESPN is keeping monies ready for the SEC and no one else. The ACC will be broken up next go round as BIG and SEC absorb some schools. No one is paying for a conference that will be drastically different once the GOR is opened up.

What panther and other ACC folks fail to realize is that any opening of the GOR, opens for dissolution or leaving. A contract that is renegotiated has to be opened for dissolution first. You open the GOR to work the numbers, you open the door to poaching

@RUTGERS95
you mention here about B1G/SEC absorbing schools. My question is who goes where at that point??? I'm not arguing when or if it can happen prior to the GOR ending. who do you think ends up where, when that tine comes??

 

[krup]

That's the point I was trying to make in regard to the GOR not lasting until 2036.

The risk is fighting it alone; hence, the prevailing thought is multiple schools will join forces and go after it together, thereby mitigating the risk (financial and legal) and increasing chances for success across the board.

It doesn’t really mitigate the financial risk, though. If they lose they don’t split the exit fee and rights fees. Each school would be on the hook for a $120 million exit fee plus whatever the balance of the rights fees are at that point.

They would split the legal fees, that’s about it,

 

[JayDogSmooth]

It doesn’t really mitigate the financial risk, though. If they lose they don’t split the exit fee and rights fees. Each school would be on the hook for a $120 million exit fee plus whatever the balance of the rights fees are at that point.

They would split the legal fees, that’s about it,

Right but the financial impact will likely be split if 6 schools do it instead of 1

E.g. contacted voided but payout of ~300 million is agreed upon, 6 schools at 50 mil each pay it (not concrete numbers just using round numbers as example)

 

[RUTGERS95]

That's the point I was trying to make in regard to the GOR not lasting until 2036.

The risk is fighting it alone; hence, the prevailing thought is multiple schools will join forces and go after it together, thereby mitigating the risk (financial and legal) and increasing chances for success across the board.

stop that is not what you said

what Krup and I are saying is fundamentally different that your conjecture and stated points

Krup gets it, you think the schools can band together and fight a GOR cause they don't want to lose money disregarding that more than half the conference has no where to go if that happens. Also doesn't account for the media rights to said left schools which no converence will agree to. You really expect FSU to pay 500mm to leave?

I just spoke to a buddy of mine who played baseball there and is pretty connected and he has zero idea what FSU can do other than publicly hollar. There is zero teeth here

 

[RUTGERS95]

@RUTGERS95
you mention here about B1G/SEC absorbing schools. My question is who goes where at that point??? I'm not arguing when or if it can happen prior to the GOR ending. who do you think ends up where, when that tine comes??

nothing happens until GOR is figured out but no way is the BIG not going south with 2 schools

 

[kupuna133]

Right but the financial impact will likely be split if 6 schools do it instead of 1

E.g. contacted voided but payout of ~300 million is agreed upon, 6 schools at 50 mil each pay it (not concrete numbers just using round numbers as example)

But most of the premise of your initial argument was that it was in ESPN best interest to renegotiate terms of this contract. They cannot renegotiate the contract without risking the possibility of losing their most valuable assets (FSU, UNC and Clemson).

It's in FSU, UNC and Clemsons best interest but not many others.

 

[RUTGERS95]

But most of the premise of your initial argument was that it was in ESPN best interest to renegotiate terms of this contract. They cannot renegotiate the contract without risking the possibility of losing their most valuable assets (FSU, UNC and Clemson).

It's in FSU, UNC and Clemsons best interest but not many others. no one else's

fixed it

 

[kupuna133]

That's the point I was trying to make in regard to the GOR not lasting until 2036.

The risk is fighting it alone; hence, the prevailing thought is multiple schools will join forces and go after it together, thereby mitigating the risk (financial and legal) and increasing chances for success across the board.

But you are only seeing the risk from one side (FSU, UNC,Clemson). The true risk is on the other side. All of the other ACC schools/ESPN.

 

[RUTGERS95]

But you are only seeing the risk from one side (FSU, UNC,Clemson). The true risk is on the other side. All of the other ACC schools/ESPN.

I'm in complete agreement with you. This whole discussion has gone to borderline ridiculous with the lack of critical thinking.

If FSU believes it's best to pay a boatload now plus a conference is ok with no media rights for 10yrs then sure lol

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

stop that is not what you said

what Krup and I are saying is fundamentally different that your conjecture and stated points

Krup gets it, you think the schools can band together and fight a GOR cause they don't want to lose money disregarding that more than half the conference has no where to go if that happens. Also doesn't account for the media rights to said left schools which no converence will agree to. You really expect FSU to pay 500mm to leave?

I just spoke to a buddy of mine who played baseball there and is pretty connected and he has zero idea what FSU can do other than publicly hollar. There is zero teeth here

I'm not sure what your problem is. Consistently coming at me, aggressive, braggadocios re. your credentials, etc.

Could be little dick syndrome
Maybe it's that time of the month
Or, you're simply an asshole

Regardless, for somebody of your apparent stature professionally, your reading comprehension (or clear lack thereof) needs dramatic, sustained and tangible improvement

Re. my post

One - It's exactly what I said (see above re. reading comprehension)

Two - I never said they'd pay $500 million to leave. That's not realistic, and defeats the whole purpose of leaving to begin with (Again, reading comprehension - appears to be regressing)

Three - That's not what I've been hearing. You have your sources, I have mine. I'm not doubting your source, I'm simply going by what mine are telling me. Nothing more, nothing less.

*** I know it sounds crazy but.... maybe different people who are connected are hearing different things

Possibly... information is being disseminated differently

Or... most likely... things are in flux, nothing is finalized, and... wait for it... until the ink is dry, people (connected or not) will have differing opinions & vantage points of the issue at hand

For somebody who has zero connections to FSU, you like to portray yourself as the one in the know. Maybe you are. Maybe I am. Maybe it's a combination of both. The main difference is...

1. I'm generally respectful, unless others continually come at me

2. Though I'm not a huge level booster there, I certainly know my fair share of people, and the information told to me by those I know, and trust, who are much more connected to the situation than you or I, is what I go by

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

fixed it

Definitely in FSU and Clemson's interest
UNC... you betcha
VT, NC State, Miami... check

For a college professor with wall street connections... I would think you'd be a little more in tune with these types of things

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

But you are only seeing the risk from one side (FSU, UNC,Clemson). The true risk is on the other side. All of the other ACC schools/ESPN.

The bottom rung are fine with the status quo (Cuse, BC, Wake)
The upper eulachon are certainly not (FSU, Clemson, UNC)

It's the middle of the road schools (VT, NCS, Miami) etc. where the rubber will meet the road

 

[kupuna133]

The bottom rung are fine with the status quo (Cuse, BC, Wake)
The upper eulachon are certainly not (FSU, Clemson, UNC)

It's the middle of the road schools (VT, NCS, Miami) etc. where the rubber will meet the road

Agreed. But as of right now there is less incentive for many of the middle of the road schools to align with the upper echelon over the bottom rung. They know there are limited seats at the table and do not want to risk being left out. Easier to feed off the GOR teet for 6-10 more years than risk losing your payday.

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

Agreed. But as of right now there is less incentive for many of the middle of the road schools to align with the upper echelon over the bottom rung. They know there are limited seats at the table and do not want to risk being left out. Easier to feed off the GOR teet for 6-10 more years than risk losing your payday.

Tough to say honestly

I'd have agreed if UNC wasn't on board
For all intents and purposes, they essentailly run the conference

With them outwardly advocating for unequal revenue sharing, that could (or for all we know, already may have) influenced others (NCS, UVA, Miami. etc.) to take a long look at what the future holds if things remain the same

Admittedly, I was surprised (shocked actually) when their AD went on record advocating for more $ at the expense of others

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

nothing happens until GOR is figured out but no way is the BIG not going south with 2 schools

The double negative confuses me.

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

nothing happens until GOR is figured out but no way is the BIG not going south with 2 schools

10000 % agree with this

GOR is a huge obstacle
B1G going south - Which schools, when, at what cost, etc. is the 64-thousand-dollar question(s)

 

[mosito]

Conference Realignment is awesome, but we are really talking about this 8 years too early unless you believe the GOR could be challenged. And Texas and OU couldn't/chose not to do that and paid 50M each to get out 1 year early... Imagine the fees for 4-8 years early)

Unless 3-5 teams can successfully challenge the GOR, no one is going no where.

With that said, it is 99% certain whether it is in 5 years or 12, FSU, UNC and maybe 2-3 others will not be with the conference.
There is no way for the ACC to bridge the gap enough for FSU to stay - Too many mouths to feed, unless they can kick WF, BC and 1-2 others out.
Just like Texas/OU/BIG12 and USC/UCLA/PAC12, FSU/XYZ/ACC will happen.

If the above is not understood, then it is too much wishful thinking.

The question is whether the 2nd tier ACC schools prefer to join the Big12, Merge with Pac12 leftovers or become part of the Group of 6 conferences.

 

[tomatocan]

I put zero weight on such rankings. But the school is good and getting better. Florida cares about public higher education, unlike some other state I can think of.

Cares about higher education??? Meanwhile the governor is banning books and dictating what may be taught.

 

[SF88]

10000 % agree with this

GOR is a huge obstacle
B1G going south - Which schools, when, at what cost, etc. is the 64-thousand-dollar question(s)

so you guys can agree to disagree on what the potential time lines are for FSU etc to continue to be unhappy with their shitty ESPN contract. Now the fun part since we are already at the table. What's the end game??? Who goes where? what does the conference landscape look like in 2036?.

I think at that time ND has to join a conference and it will be the B1G. It simply makes too much sense for both sides. UVA and UNC are ( IMO ) the most logical from the ACC. I believe Delany's end game ( he a UNC grad ) The fit the B1G profile to a T. What about overlapping markets/states for both B1G/SEC. What about everyone else? PAC/B12/ACC??

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

Cares about higher education??? Meanwhile the governor is banning books and dictating what may be taught.

Please let's keep politics out of a college football discussion
It can (and eventually) will go downhill if we venture down that path

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

so you guys can agree to disagree on what the potential time lines are for FSU etc to continue to be unhappy with their shitty ESPN contract. Now the fun part since we are already at the table. What's the end game??? Who goes where? what does the conference landscape look like in 2036?.

I think at that time ND has to join a conference and it will be the B1G. It simply makes too much sense for both sides. UVA and UNC are ( IMO ) the most logical from the ACC. I believe Delany's end game ( he a UNC grad ) The fit the B1G profile to a T. What about overlapping markets/states for both B1G/SEC. What about everyone else? PAC/B12/ACC??

My predictions:

B1G in 2036 - ND, UVA, UNC, FSU, GT
SEC - VT, NCS, Clemson

I've been hearing FSU out of ACC in 2/3 years, if you split that and 2036 end of GOR it's 2029 timeframe - that puts FSU in nearly a 300 million dollar hole, which, in addition to what I've been hearing, is why I don't think it'll take nearly that long

I think the fringe teams are also interesting. Does VT and NCS go to the B12? Do the B12 and Pac join together? Miami... B1G, SEC, or B12? Duke is another wildcard. Same w/Pitt

Additionally, do state politics play a role? E.g. UVA can only go to the B1G is SEC agrees to take VT? Same w/UNC / NCS?

Lots of interesting variables in play

 

[airspace]

My take has been, 3 or 4 more from the coast (Washington, California, Oregon and maybe Stanford).

From the SE I believe 4 to 6 more, Virginia, UNC, Georgia Tech, FSU with maybe 2 more, Duke and Miami.

Notre Dame - let them die.

 

[krup]

Right but the financial impact will likely be split if 6 schools do it instead of 1

E.g. contacted voided but payout of ~300 million is agreed upon, 6 schools at 50 mil each pay it (not concrete numbers just using round numbers as example)

It will not be split if they lose.

Each school will be liable for the exit fee ($120 million each) and each school would be liable under the GOR to pay the annual rights fee amount times the number of years left on the contract. There is no sharing of financial risk.

Theoretically, if enough schools challenged it makes brokering a settlement more possible, but there aren’t enough schools guaranteed to find better homes to risk that move.

 

[krup]

My predictions:

B1G in 2036 - ND, UVA, UNC, FSU, GT
SEC - VT, NCS, Clemson

I've been hearing FSU out of ACC in 2/3 years, if you split that and 2036 end of GOR it's 2029 timeframe - that puts FSU in nearly a 300 million dollar hole, which, in addition to what I've been hearing, is why I don't think it'll take nearly that long

I think the fringe teams are also interesting. Does VT and NCS go to the B12? Do the B12 and Pac join together? Miami... B1G, SEC, or B12? Duke is another wildcard. Same w/Pitt

Additionally, do state politics play a role? E.g. UVA can only go to the B1G is SEC agrees to take VT? Same w/UNC / NCS?

Lots of interesting variables in play

How do you square up your statements in this thread “FSU out of the ACC in 2/3 years”, “FSU prefers the B1G” , and “”FSU will be an AAU member in 7-10 years”??

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

I'm not sure what your problem is. Consistently coming at me, aggressive, braggadocios re. your credentials, etc.

Could be little dick syndrome
Maybe it's that time of the month
Or, you're simply an asshole

Regardless, for somebody of your apparent stature professionally, your reading comprehension (or clear lack thereof) needs dramatic, sustained and tangible improvement

Re. my post

One - It's exactly what I said (see above re. reading comprehension)

Two - I never said they'd pay $500 million to leave. That's not realistic, and defeats the whole purpose of leaving to begin with (Again, reading comprehension - appears to be regressing)

Three - That's not what I've been hearing. You have your sources, I have mine. I'm not doubting your source, I'm simply going by what mine are telling me. Nothing more, nothing less.

*** I know it sounds crazy but.... maybe different people who are connected are hearing different things

Possibly... information is being disseminated differently

Or... most likely... things are in flux, nothing is finalized, and... wait for it... until the ink is dry, people (connected or not) will have differing opinions & vantage points of the issue at hand

For somebody who has zero connections to FSU, you like to portray yourself as the one in the know. Maybe you are. Maybe I am. Maybe it's a combination of both. The main difference is...

1. I'm generally respectful, unless others continually come at me

2. Though I'm not a huge level booster there, I certainly know my fair share of people, and the information told to me by those I know, and trust, who are much more connected to the situation than you or I, is what I go by

You destroyed your own credibility when you called Lincoln a traitor. The Big 10 is highly unlikely to ever add a second-tier state university/non-flagship state university. The Big 10 is already at 16 teams and any expansion is likely on the West Coast to better balance travel for USC & UCLA. Enough of the FSU nonsense. The Noles will probably join the Big 12 in 13 years, playing the second, third, and fourth-tier Texas schools + a big rivalry with UCF.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

How do you square up your statements in this thread “FSU out of the ACC in 2/3 years”, “FSU prefers the B1G” , and “”FSU will be an AAU member in 7-10 years”??

One cannot. This whole FSU to the Big 10 is ludicrous.

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

It will not be split if they lose.

Each school will be liable for the exit fee ($120 million each) and each school would be liable under the GOR to pay the annual rights fee amount times the number of years left on the contract. There is no sharing of financial risk.

Theoretically, if enough schools challenged it makes brokering a settlement more possible, but there aren’t enough schools guaranteed to find better homes to risk that move.

I'm saying if they win, they'll likely still be a negotiated settlement
Doubtful they'll win without having to pay some sort of monetary amount

 

[RUTGERS95]

I'm not sure what your problem is. Consistently coming at me, aggressive, braggadocios re. your credentials, etc.

Could be little dick syndrome
Maybe it's that time of the month
Or, you're simply an asshole

Regardless, for somebody of your apparent stature professionally, your reading comprehension (or clear lack thereof) needs dramatic, sustained and tangible improvement

Re. my post

One - It's exactly what I said (see above re. reading comprehension)

Two - I never said they'd pay $500 million to leave. That's not realistic, and defeats the whole purpose of leaving to begin with (Again, reading comprehension - appears to be regressing)

Three - That's not what I've been hearing. You have your sources, I have mine. I'm not doubting your source, I'm simply going by what mine are telling me. Nothing more, nothing less.

*** I know it sounds crazy but.... maybe different people who are connected are hearing different things

Possibly... information is being disseminated differently

Or... most likely... things are in flux, nothing is finalized, and... wait for it... until the ink is dry, people (connected or not) will have differing opinions & vantage points of the issue at hand

For somebody who has zero connections to FSU, you like to portray yourself as the one in the know. Maybe you are. Maybe I am. Maybe it's a combination of both. The main difference is...

1. I'm generally respectful, unless others continually come at me

2. Though I'm not a huge level booster there, I certainly know my fair share of people, and the information told to me by those I know, and trust, who are much more connected to the situation than you or I, is what I go by

because you're retarded and haven't a clue which is apparent to everyone but you

 

[RUTGERS95]

Definitely in FSU and Clemson's interest
UNC... you betcha
VT, NC State, Miami... check

For a college professor with wall street connections... I would think you'd be a little more in tune with these types of things

again, you can't keep track of your own bs and intimations.

you literally know jack and shit but it's fun

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

How do you square up your statements in this thread “FSU out of the ACC in 2/3 years”, “FSU prefers the B1G” , and “”FSU will be an AAU member in 7-10 years”??

I've been told they'll be out in 2-3 years and the powers that be, for reasons I've already listed, by and large prefer the B1G

I personally prefer the SEC due to football rivalries, but there's much more that goes into it thatn that

Re. AAU, that's a great question. When I pressed my buddy on it, as I was under the impression that was a B1G qualification before joining, he smirked and all he said was "money talks."

My interpretation is that if the B1G deems them a worthy partner, and they're brining in enough $$, and on their way to AAU membership, they'll bend the rules for the greater good

I didn't delve into it that deep as we were tailgating and the drinks were flowing smoothly, and I was more concerned with looking at co-eds and talking recruiting then AAU talk

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

G

because you're retarded and haven't a clue which is apparent to everyone but you

Gotcha

So getting angry on a college football message board, while talking about college football, for a school you have no interest in, no affiliation with, and literally no idea about makes you an expert?

If that's the case, sign me up for adjunct professor status!

 

[RUTGERS95]

It will not be split if they lose.

Each school will be liable for the exit fee ($120 million each) and each school would be liable under the GOR to pay the annual rights fee amount times the number of years left on the contract. There is no sharing of financial risk.

Theoretically, if enough schools challenged it makes brokering a settlement more possible, but there aren’t enough schools guaranteed to find better homes to risk that move.

numbers could be as high as 500mm based on current rights which is insurmountable to any school. I get it, you get it, most people get but he's not getting it.

only 3 schools have a vested interest in leaving today, no one else

not sure why he's having such a hard time with this


still waiting for the uva/BIG reference other than what some blog said. UVA won't sniff BIG in today's conference landscape. There is no DMA in VA that matters for UVA as DC is taken already.

 

[jaydogsmooth1]

again, you can't keep track of your own bs and intimations.

you literally know jack and shit but it's fun

Professor...Show me where I said the aforementioned schools wouldn't have a keen interest in the monetary discrepancies between the SEC/BIG and ACC?