Rutgers Becoming More Selective

[RUseaweed]

Article from the Targum. Good quote below:

"McAnuff said the class of 2019 has an average SAT score of 1881, which is 16 points higher than last year and 350 points higher than the national average."

They include some stats for SEBS, but I wish they would have included ones for Engineering too.
This post was edited on 2/19 7:07 PM by RUseaweed

Targum Article

 

[NotInRHouse]

Great news!

 

[lawmatt78]

Good. Keep it moving in that direction.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by RUseaweed:
Article from the Targum. Good quote below:

"McAnuff said the class of 2019 has an average SAT score of 1881, which is 16 points higher than last year and 350 points higher than the national average."

They include some stats for SEBS, but I wish they would have included ones for Engineering too.
This post was edited on 2/19 7:07 PM by RUseaweed

No surprise. We stop growing and we get more selective.

 

[RU88]

Im a little confused about class size. It seems that RU is lowering enrollment to bring up SAT average, because of limited classrooms and dorms. At the same time there is alot of new construction of dorms and classrooms.

Is the intent to keep lowering enrollment and build all the new buildings to give students smaller and smaller classroom sizes? Or is enrollment eventually going to be increased to cover the cost of some of the new buildings?

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by RU88:
Im a little confused about class size. It seems that RU is lowering enrollment to bring up SAT average, because of limited classrooms and dorms. At the same time there is alot of new construction of dorms and classrooms.

Is the intent to keep lowering enrollment and build all the new buildings to give students smaller and smaller classroom sizes? Or is enrollment eventually going to be increased to cover the cost of some of the new buildings?

That is a good question. I think one thing is - if RU builds better dorms, then people would choose them over off campus housing - so RU doesnt have to grow necessarily to fit that need.

For classrooms - RU probably has too little classroom space as it is.

But yes - I expect RU to grow in specific areas (business, engineering, biotech) that are in demand.

 

[RU88]

I don't know if building better dorms has that much of an impact on off-campus vs on-campus housing selection. Student live off-campus primarily for more freedom and cheaper price. I suppose some are forced off-campus because there isn't enough dorm space. I know I wouldn't live in a dorm after my sophomore year.

 

[Scarlet Pride]

Originally posted by RU88:
I don't know if building better dorms has that much of an impact on off-campus vs on-campus housing selection. Student live off-campus primarily for more freedom and cheaper price. I suppose some are forced off-campus because there isn't enough dorm space. I know I wouldn't live in a dorm after my sophomore year.

Better dorms definitely are impacting off-campus living. It's changed the market for greek organizations and landlords/developers across the country. The amenity filled suite and apartment style on-campus housing is major competition. Off campus housing now has to compete with dorms that are less like dorms and more like off-campus housing but with more amenities like free wi-fi and cable. Plus the facilities are better maintained.

I think Rutgers is definitely trending in that direction. They better facilities are becoming much more competitive and desired. Certainly when I went to school I wanted to get off campus ASAP but that was also because the options were much more limited living on campus.

 

[retired711]

The sense among Rutgers administrators is that students need and demand more amenities than in the past. What satisfied the students of a generation ago is no longer acceptable. Hence it's important to update facilities even with enrollment steady or declining.

 

[derleider]

But we arenthe updating or replacing. We are adding on.

So for housing we were either over crowded or we are going to expand some more or we are getting kids from off campus.

 

[Sir ScarletKnight]

Originally posted by derleider:
But we arenthe updating or replacing. We are adding on.

So for housing we were either over crowded or we are going to expand some more or we are getting kids from off campus.

Rutgers housing has been overcrowded in the very recent past, and with the nicer and nicer apartments, more and more people are pushing to live on campus, there were stories in the Targum very recently about students that applied for housing but couldn't get it. Speaking as someone in the Towers, and with friends in the quads, river dorms, etc., I would LOVE to see some upgrades with these...most specifically, in the climate control situation, along with the lounges in the Towers. The climate control in these dorms is really, really, sketchy. Even some of the doors to outside seem like they haven't been fitted correctly, with gushes of cold air coming in unabated. Heating systems fail (They've actually been giving students space heaters), and when it's hot? Can't even sleep, there is no de-humidification, and no airflow. It's a mold problem waiting to happen.

The problem is, as one staffer described it to me, donors like giving money to put their names on buildings, but not for improvements on an already built/named building, and a lot of money comes with the strings of saying it can only be used for NEW buildings, not for improvement on old ones.

They're planning to put wifi into the towers, but in all honesty, I like having my own wifi, it cost me 15 bucks and it's more reliable/faster than RU-Wireless (Less users). I'd rather they put the money towards making it easier to actually LIVE here.

They moved summer orientation to the new Livi apartments because students were fainting in the heat. That should tell you all you need to know.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by derleider:
But we arenthe updating or replacing. We are adding on.

So for housing we were either over crowded or we are going to expand some more or we are getting kids from off campus.

I think the thought may be that today's students need more room than yesterday's students. And I do think that to some extent, the university is trying to encourage students to live on campus after their freshman years.

 

[sct1111]

There's no reason a school like Rutgers should have an acceptance rate of 60%. I know it's a huge school and the Flagship of NJ, but they should be letting more OOS students. I think the ratio is something like 14% are OOS. This should be at least 20%. PSU has something like 40% OOS. The campus is getting more and more crowded every year and the buses are getting ridiculous. I remember seeing the College Hall bus stop my senior year in 2012 and the sheer amount of people waiting to squeeze on to a bus was insane. The bus system is already unattractive to prospective students, you make it much worse when you have 100 students trying to squeeze on a 20 person bus.

It's nice to see our average SAT scores go up but Rutgers could and should be even more selective than it is.

 

[RU MAN]

Originally posted by sct1111:
There's no reason a school like Rutgers should have an acceptance rate of 60%. I know it's a huge school and the Flagship of NJ, but they should be letting more OOS students. I think the ratio is something like 14% are OOS. This should be at least 20%. PSU has something like 40% OOS. The campus is getting more and more crowded every year and the buses are getting ridiculous. I remember seeing the College Hall bus stop my senior year in 2012 and the sheer amount of people waiting to squeeze on to a bus was insane. The bus system is already unattractive to prospective students, you make it much worse when you have 100 students trying to squeeze on a 20 person bus.

It's nice to see our average SAT scores go up but Rutgers could and should be even more selective than it is.

Actually, I think Rutgers is still only allowing under 10% in . I may be wrong on that, but that's the last figure I heard. As to being more selective, RU used to only admit around 45% over when I was at Rutgers in the late 1970's and schools like MGSA only admit around 12%, college of engineering, pharmacy, etc. are all under 25%. What Rutgers needs to do is reduce the acceptance rate to around 40% for arts and sciences and admit at least 18-20% from OOS.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by RU MAN:

Originally posted by sct1111:
There's no reason a school like Rutgers should have an acceptance rate of 60%. I know it's a huge school and the Flagship of NJ, but they should be letting more OOS students. I think the ratio is something like 14% are OOS. This should be at least 20%. PSU has something like 40% OOS. The campus is getting more and more crowded every year and the buses are getting ridiculous. I remember seeing the College Hall bus stop my senior year in 2012 and the sheer amount of people waiting to squeeze on to a bus was insane. The bus system is already unattractive to prospective students, you make it much worse when you have 100 students trying to squeeze on a 20 person bus.

It's nice to see our average SAT scores go up but Rutgers could and should be even more selective than it is.

Actually, I think Rutgers is still only allowing under 10% in . I may be wrong on that, but that's the last figure I heard. As to being more selective, RU used to only admit around 45% over when I was at Rutgers in the late 1970's and schools like MGSA only admit around 12%, college of engineering, pharmacy, etc. are all under 25%. What Rutgers needs to do is reduce the acceptance rate to around 40% for arts and sciences and admit at least 18-20% from OOS.

I do not know for sure, but my guess is that the 45% figure is for Rutgers College only. I cannot think of anything that's happened since the 1970s that would have brought up admission rates so much. BTW, I was surprised by SCT111's statement that 40% of Penn State students are OOS. This is close to true (38%) for students going to University Park, but the overall percentage is 28%. (I assume,btw, that these numbers reflect only undergraduates, as the Rutgers figures do). If that's so, Penn State has far more OOS students than Rutgers.

 

[sct1111]

I'm still waiting for Rutgers to develop a few signature programs that are elite. It seems like most Big Ten Universities have at least one program they are known for. I know our philosophy dept is there, but I'm thinking subjects like English and Mathematics, two areas which are already very strong at Rutgers but need to make that next step to becoming top 5 programs. Our biology program needs to be stronger as well considering we have an entire school SEBS devoted to biological and environmental sciences. Engineering is also a department that has to take steps forward as well as our new business school.

I think developing signature programs as well as highlighting our new Honors College and the overall physical transformation of our campuses will be vital to turning Rutgers from a very good state flagship to an elite state flagship.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by sct1111:
I'm still waiting for Rutgers to develop a few signature programs that are elite. It seems like most Big Ten Universities have at least one program they are known for. I know our philosophy dept is there, but I'm thinking subjects like English and Mathematics, two areas which are already very strong at Rutgers but need to make that next step to becoming top 5 programs. Our biology program needs to be stronger as well considering we have an entire school SEBS devoted to biological and environmental sciences. Engineering is also a department that has to take steps forward as well as our new business school.

I think developing signature programs as well as highlighting our new Honors College and the overall physical transformation of our campuses will be vital to turning Rutgers from a very good state flagship to an elite state flagship.

The issue is - RU is at its heart a liberal arts school - especially compared to the Big Ten schools. You can see it in basically any statistic you look at. Not much money in that.

Air conditioning is an expensive add on for a northern school that starts after Labor Day and ends at Mothers Day.

As for PSU - Im sure their main campus has high OOS - we might have that luxury too if half of the students who get a Rutgers degree did so without every stepping foot on a New Brunswick campus. But even then, Ive seen no proof that there is just insatiable out of state demand that would allow RU to take in significantly more OOS students without being less selective.
This post was edited on 2/23 9:30 AM by derleider

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by sct1111:
I'm still waiting for Rutgers to develop a few signature programs that are elite. It seems like most Big Ten Universities have at least one program they are known for. I know our philosophy dept is there, but I'm thinking subjects like English and Mathematics, two areas which are already very strong at Rutgers but need to make that next step to becoming top 5 programs. Our biology program needs to be stronger as well considering we have an entire school SEBS devoted to biological and environmental sciences. Engineering is also a department that has to take steps forward as well as our new business school.

I think developing signature programs as well as highlighting our new Honors College and the overall physical transformation of our campuses will be vital to turning Rutgers from a very good state flagship to an elite state flagship.

The issue is - RU is at its heart a liberal arts school - especially compared to the Big Ten schools. You can see it in basically any statistic you look at. Not much money in that.

Air conditioning is an expensive add on for a northern school that starts after Labor Day and ends at Mothers Day.

As for PSU - Im sure their main campus has high OOS - we might have that luxury too if half of the students who get a Rutgers degree did so without every stepping foot on a New Brunswick campus. But even then, Ive seen no proof that there is just insatiable out of state demand that would allow RU to take in significantly more OOS students without being less selective.
This post was edited on 2/23 9:30 AM by derleider

Derleider, it would shock the liberal arts faculty to learn that "RU is at its heart a liberal arts school." What statistics do you think demonstrate that?

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by sct1111:
I'm still waiting for Rutgers to develop a few signature programs that are elite. It seems like most Big Ten Universities have at least one program they are known for. I know our philosophy dept is there, but I'm thinking subjects like English and Mathematics, two areas which are already very strong at Rutgers but need to make that next step to becoming top 5 programs. Our biology program needs to be stronger as well considering we have an entire school SEBS devoted to biological and environmental sciences. Engineering is also a department that has to take steps forward as well as our new business school.

I think developing signature programs as well as highlighting our new Honors College and the overall physical transformation of our campuses will be vital to turning Rutgers from a very good state flagship to an elite state flagship.

The issue is - RU is at its heart a liberal arts school - especially compared to the Big Ten schools. You can see it in basically any statistic you look at. Not much money in that.

Air conditioning is an expensive add on for a northern school that starts after Labor Day and ends at Mothers Day.

As for PSU - Im sure their main campus has high OOS - we might have that luxury too if half of the students who get a Rutgers degree did so without every stepping foot on a New Brunswick campus. But even then, Ive seen no proof that there is just insatiable out of state demand that would allow RU to take in significantly more OOS students without being less selective.
This post was edited on 2/23 9:30 AM by derleider

Derleider, it would shock the liberal arts faculty to learn that "RU is at its heart a liberal arts school." What statistics do you think demonstrate that?

Rutgers put out a release a little while ago comparing various aspects of our university to the Big Ten (I dont think that was the point, but it was part of the document). Ill try to find it, although there is probably a thread about it on this board. But the thing I noticed was RU has more undergrads and fewer grad students. More liberal arts majors and less hard science among other things. Less focus on professional schools. Everything that is leftover from the fact that basically 40 years ago RU-NB was still basically a bunch of liberal arts schools with a couple of relatively modest science programs tacked on.

Thats not to say RU is now a liberal arts school in the sense of Oberlin or something. Its not - but it foundation and most of its existence was much closer to that than Wisconsin, let alone MIT, and there are still vestigial signs of that in the data - at least in comaparison to the rest of the Big Ten.

This post was edited on 2/23 4:17 PM by derleider

 

[RUbybay]

I think the document der is referring to is Barchi's strategic plan. Page 21 shows a graph of how RU compares to peer and aspirational peer schools. RU compares favorably in history, english, fine arts and library studies. Also good info on out of state students and how RU compares to peer schools.

strategic plan

 

[Sir ScarletKnight]

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by sct1111:
I'm still waiting for Rutgers to develop a few signature programs that are elite. It seems like most Big Ten Universities have at least one program they are known for. I know our philosophy dept is there, but I'm thinking subjects like English and Mathematics, two areas which are already very strong at Rutgers but need to make that next step to becoming top 5 programs. Our biology program needs to be stronger as well considering we have an entire school SEBS devoted to biological and environmental sciences. Engineering is also a department that has to take steps forward as well as our new business school.

I think developing signature programs as well as highlighting our new Honors College and the overall physical transformation of our campuses will be vital to turning Rutgers from a very good state flagship to an elite state flagship.

The issue is - RU is at its heart a liberal arts school - especially compared to the Big Ten schools. You can see it in basically any statistic you look at. Not much money in that.

Air conditioning is an expensive add on for a northern school that starts after Labor Day and ends at Mothers Day.

As for PSU - Im sure their main campus has high OOS - we might have that luxury too if half of the students who get a Rutgers degree did so without every stepping foot on a New Brunswick campus. But even then, Ive seen no proof that there is just insatiable out of state demand that would allow RU to take in significantly more OOS students without being less selective.

This post was edited on 2/23 9:30 AM by derleider

Air conditioning is one part of climate control...having efficient and reliable heating, along with de-humidification and insulation is another where the older dorms greatly lack.

 

[rufancoe00]

Page 21 of the report is a great look at RU vs AAU publics. Most majors lned up like I thought f hey would.. Very surprised at pharmacy. .. thought it was ranked much higher

 

[RUnTeX]

Originally posted by rufancoe00:
Page 21 of the report is a great look at RU vs AAU publics. Most majors lned up like I thought f hey would.. Very surprised at pharmacy. .. thought it was ranked much higher

Pharmacy really seems to have fallen off the map (ok, slid down the rankings quite a bit is probably more accurate) in recent years. I recall late 80s/early 90s when it seemed it was regularly in the top 10-15 level. I believe it's still a highly regarded program but maybe not where it used to be. They did get a donation and are going to expand the pharmacy school building so maybe that will help.

 

[Scarlet16E]

Originally posted by rufancoe00:
Page 21 of the report is a great look at RU vs AAU publics. Most majors lned up like I thought f hey would.. Very surprised at pharmacy. .. thought it was ranked much higher

That is a very interesting chart. I will say that the strategic plan was way overdue, and that Barchi has forced RU to take an unflinching look at what needs to improve to be where we want to be. It's also very apparent that RU is now taking action on the facilities front (which can help with faculty and student recruitment). The plan lists several academic programs that need specific focus for improvement in rankings (Chemistry, Biological Sciences, Engineering, Education, Business, Law, & Medicine) All of these except Education, Law & Medicine have either just added a new building or are about to get one. Medicine is of course undergoing a massive transformation from the UMDNJ structure, and the two law schools are being merged which may help with their rankings.

Kudos to the various great humanities programs along with Math & Physics. Computer Science copares well against the AAU peers, but needs a bump to be even with our aspirational peers.
I would like to see Economics receive some attention.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by Scarlet16E:

Originally posted by rufancoe00:
Page 21 of the report is a great look at RU vs AAU publics. Most majors lned up like I thought f hey would.. Very surprised at pharmacy. .. thought it was ranked much higher

That is a very interesting chart. I will say that the strategic plan was way overdue, and that Barchi has forced RU to take an unflinching look at what needs to improve to be where we want to be. It's also very apparent that RU is now taking action on the facilities front (which can help with faculty and student recruitment). The plan lists several academic programs that need specific focus for improvement in rankings (Chemistry, Biological Sciences, Engineering, Education, Business, Law, & Medicine) All of these except Education, Law & Medicine have either just added a new building or are about to get one. Medicine is of course undergoing a massive transformation from the UMDNJ structure, and the two law schools are being merged which may help with their rankings.

Kudos to the various great humanities programs along with Math & Physics. Computer Science copares well against the AAU peers, but needs a bump to be even with our aspirational peers.
I would like to see Economics receive some attention.

RU really needs to look at its advantages are - namely its location. There should be a huge focus on biomed, business, and communications due to our location at or near a major center of those activities.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by Scarlet16E:

Originally posted by rufancoe00:
Page 21 of the report is a great look at RU vs AAU publics. Most majors lned up like I thought f hey would.. Very surprised at pharmacy. .. thought it was ranked much higher

That is a very interesting chart. I will say that the strategic plan was way overdue, and that Barchi has forced RU to take an unflinching look at what needs to improve to be where we want to be. It's also very apparent that RU is now taking action on the facilities front (which can help with faculty and student recruitment). The plan lists several academic programs that need specific focus for improvement in rankings (Chemistry, Biological Sciences, Engineering, Education, Business, Law, & Medicine) All of these except Education, Law & Medicine have either just added a new building or are about to get one. Medicine is of course undergoing a massive transformation from the UMDNJ structure, and the two law schools are being merged which may help with their rankings.

Kudos to the various great humanities programs along with Math & Physics. Computer Science copares well against the AAU peers, but needs a bump to be even with our aspirational peers.
I would like to see Economics receive some attention.



I can't entirely agree. The report cites law, correctly, as an area in which Rutgers lags behind other B1G schools, but does not have one word to say about improving the situation.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I think we discussed at the time how the one drawback of that report was no plan for the law schools.

On the bright side, the combination does seem like a first positive step.

 

[Scarlet16E]

It does talk about improving infrastructure / buildings as a means to better attract top faculty and students.

I agree that it doesn't talk about solutions specifically for Law or other programs, It was my observation that the law schools are merging, as an example that something is at least being attempted to improve rankings. I know nothing of the quality of our Law School(s), but merging them is certainly an attempt to improve the product.

More to the point, other areas cited for improvement have received attention on the infrastructure front: the Business School just got it's new building, Chemistry is getting one (with a biological wing), Engineering will be getting one, etc.

 

[retired711]

I haven't heard of anyone suggesting new infrastructure/buildings for the law schools. And it's interesting that the merger seems so low a priority that it's not even mentioned. The report does not give an impression of much concern about Rutgers' law schools.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Have you got the impression there is major concern? I haven't.

I think there is a real push for "STEM" but even with the permanent downward shift in the legal economy, lawyers will still make a lot money- but in most cases it will be more like accountant money and less like doctor money.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Have you got the impression there is major concern? I haven't.

I think there is a real push for "STEM" but even with the permanent downward shift in the legal economy, lawyers will still make a lot money- but in most cases it will be more like accountant money and less like doctor money.

That's exactly my point. The University should be concerned about improving its law schools, but the master plan document does not have one word to say about it.

 

[Scarlet16E]

Well, at the risk of repeating myself, the master plan does include Law (plus Business, Engineering, Medicine and Chemistry & Biological Sciences) among the programs that are targeted for improvement (to rankings).

No specific solutions are identified for any of these programs in the document, But some general ideas are presented for improving university perception and ultimately, rankings. One of these is improved infrastructure; one is improved PR management, etc.

It's obvious that some of these programs are getting new infrastructure. Medicine is undoubtedly undergoing major changes as the UMDNJ schools are integrated into the larger university system. And in the case of Law, the two schools are being merged. Say what you will, but that seems like an obvious move. We have two underperforming law schools. The first thing we should do is merge them so that limited resources can be focused where they can help most.

I don't know where the merged law school stands as far as the state of it's infrastructure. I think a new building was opened in Newark not long ago. How effective are the Camden Law School facilities?

I know some in this forum have expressed interest in building a new law school in New Brunswick, and others have argued against that idea. It seems to me that the first thing to do is complete the merger of the two law schools and then assess what needs to be done next.

 

[retired711]

Rutgers-Camden's law school got a large new wing about seven years ago or so. The merger will not do much good unless RU is willing to devote more resources to the merged institution (e.g. for scholarship money, an urgent need) and so it was surprising there was no mention of this in the plan document. The plan wants the law schools to get better, but the general steps mentioned for the university as a whole will not, unfortunately, have much concrete impact.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Isn't the theory that the merged law school will see an increase ranking through more impressive admission stats- higher LSATs, lower acceptance rates, etc?

 

[retired711]

yes, that's the theory. But it will take money to make reality out of the theory. Just merging is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[NotInRHouse]

That's definitely the harshest description I've heard from you on this topic. You really think it's that dire? The only school that I understand ever totally falling off the law school map was Syracuse...RU-N was ranked in the 40s I think at one point so the fall was precipitous but in my mind it was also calculated as the school basically decided RU-N was going to be more or less a school for returning students and not a school trying to place with big firms.

It's interesting as this past week Sen. Lesniak took aim at the admin over neglecting bball, there are a lot of RU law alums in the legislature but no word.

 

[retired711]

Looking back, I was overly harsh. But I do believe there's not much benefit to a merger that doesn't involve more resources for the merged institution.

I don't want to offend any RU-N law school graduates, but my understanding is that RU-N got a high ranking only by excluding the credentials of students admitted with weak credentials -- RU-N claimed that such students had not been "fully admitted" to the law school. That trick lasted one year.

RU-N is not a school for returning students and has never claimed to be. Under a past dean, the institution said it didn't care about USNWR rankings, but those days are long gone.

 

[derleider]

Why would that be the case?

I mean if you want to be more selective - take less kids or give them more of what they want (i.e. scholarships or better professors or better post-grad opportunities or whatever) The schools dont need to merge to do that, and in fact I dont really see how them merging does anything to forward that.

 

[retired711]

DerLeider, you're not the only one who is unsure exactly what the merger will accomplish. Applications are down 20% so far this year, and the same was true last year. We need scholarship money because Temple is undercutting Rutgers tuition for New Jersey students, therefore depriving R-C of a home base. Some people here fear that the merger is just a device to politely kill the law school in Camden.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Aren't applications down across the board? Less people are willing to pay laughably increasing tuition for pathetically decreasing salaries. I was just talking to an intern at my office and she told me that most people at her pretty respected school are still graduating without jobs.

I thought the idea of the merger was to essentially prevent the RU law schools from competing with each other...which in the end should result in lower acceptance.

It is sad that the same Temple scholarship issue is in play...this was the case when I applied in the fall of 2006 and SHU was undercutting RU-N as well.

I guess my questions would be, are Barchi and other higher ups aware of the gravity of this phenonmenon, and what is their solution beyond the merger?

With Barchi's plan (as dictated by Trenton) to not take on more debt, who is going to step up? The obvious solution to me is a new, small, NB based school. Will RU take on debt for academics?