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Scrimmage Takeaways

I was going to ask if those at the scrimmage felt we look like a team that can press with this group.

Alternate idea/question: what about a 1-3-1 zone like we did under Wenzel way back when, with Davis underneath like we used Dadika back in the day? Or is the game too different now to get away with that type of D because of too many 3 pt shooters?
Last year we would press, fall back in zone and then switch to man all in same possession i believe.

Many times we switched defenses in the middle of possessions. That may be tough with a lot of new pieces.

Also overnight we went from a real long team to at best an avergae length team.

EDIT simultaneously Milo wrote same thing
 
LOL on out-of-position Hyatt at the 3, you also have an out-of-position Mag.
Some combination of Hyatt/Mag/Chol/Oskar/Wolf have to play well enough you want them on the court together (and Wolf with Cliff).

Another reason you want Gavin at the 2 - someone mentioned he got "lost" a few time early - this is an interesting way to put it. On ball screen coverage, Gavin was playing where he was the guy who bumped the roll man when Cliff or Wolff hard hedged (over hard hedged IMO but that a whole different conversation). Watch this action away from the ball if you haven't. Mag is great at it, one of the things that sets him apart defensively. The job is to basically crash into the roll man when he rolls and stay with him long enough for Cliff/Wolff to recover. Early in the game, Gavin stayed too long a couple of times, St John's did a nice job swinging the ball and Gavin recovered in time to contest, but a little late and guys made shots. One time later in the game, no doubt trying NOT to be late to get to the shooter, Gavin gave Soriano a fully body block while Wolf was hedging, then went right to his guy on the 3-point line, Wolf was still scrambling to get back and they threw Soriano an alley opp for a dunk. You go with a lineup with Gavin/Mag/Hyatt to get Mag in that role with Gavin on the floor.

With 2 small guards, Gavin, a 4 and Cliff, you have limited switching.
With Gavin at the 2, you can switch 2-3-4. And when you do something like zone press back to 2-3 then go to m2m late in the shot clock, you have a lot more matchup possibilities (yes they did that defensively in the scrimmage at least once and multiple times last season).
That was me. You definitely put it better than I did, maybe getting lost wasn’t the right way to put it. Point I was trying to make was he was late closing out. I think it was made more noticeable by the fact that St. John’s seemingly made every one of those shots. He also adjusted as the game went on.

I’m not really worried about Gavin on defense, I think he’ll be fine.
 
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Jmike has something that's innate and hard to teach: Tremendous court sense, spacing and positioning. One thing that seemed unreal in his H.S. Stat line was his rebounbing numbers, the only way a 6'2" guard has those #'s is great court sense and positioning, he is always around the ball and positioned to make plays offensively, defensively and rebounding, 6 rebounds is a huge # not to be overlooked for a freshman guard in his first college game, he will get a lot of minutes and will deserve them
 
I know rebounding isnt all about height, but we went from a ridiculously tall team to a pretty average height team.
 
Cannot make any judgements on anything really until Mag's return.. Look for team to finish the season very strong with the talented freshman gaining experience, and the defense & rebounding improving drastically going into March.. As long as there are not too many early season losses, team should be in good position to make the tournament - perhaps a 7/10 rematch w St Johns?
 
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Brilliant!
LOL - seriously, nice work on picking up the press to zone to m2m - I love that - they did it at least once yesterday
I'll bet Pike has points per possession by their opponents when they do that, I wish we could see stuff like that.

Great point on the length. ANOTHER reason why I think we see some of GG at the 2. 🙂

This is what I’m concerned we are now overstocked on PG and don’t have enough at the two and three …I just know how much Pike values defense and rebounding …and while we want to play faster , we are not abandoning our core program

Hyatt having a big year st the the three is critical …both on offense and defense . He was named captain for a reason. Not let’s see it on the court
 
True, but I think we’ll be fine rebounding wise especially once Mag returns. And we are a quicker/faster team.
The question in my mind….
A. Will it be an occasional issue
B. Will it be a non issue with certain lineups
C. Will it be a strength

Last year rebounding was “fixed” by putting certain units. Unfortunately we have a bunch of players in the rotation that were part of bad rebounding units.
 
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This is what I’m concerned we are now overstocked on PG and don’t have enough at the two and three …I just know how much Pike values defense and rebounding …and while we want to play faster , we are not abandoning our core program

Hyatt having a big year st the the three is critical …both on offense and defense . He was named captain for a reason. Not let’s see it on the court
I am not worried (i am also worried a little) about 1,2,4 and 5. This team really needs minutes somehow out of that 3rd spot. We agree 100% here.

Gavin isnt playing 40, the 3 point guards playing 3 is real dicey.

I need to see Gavin to see what type of concerns I have with drfense and rebounding.

I think our preseason tbiught of this being the deepest team is on hold. We may be deep at certain positions but not 1 through 5
 
He’s not. That might be in practice, but it hasn’t materialized consistently. You realize he didn’t score right? Did you see his minutes? As an experienced player he should have made his mark. Apparently he started. He had a chance to show out a bit. He didn’t. Exhibition or National Championships, doesn’t matter. If you have game, at some point, you must show it.
Palmquist is never going to be a 15-20 minute per game player at Rutgers. He ‘s a guy who’ll give us a body on the floor. Grab an occasional rebound and even put a few in. There is more to this than many are willing to understand. An older player who from many ( including Pike) have said lends that needed calming aspect in the locker room and on the practice court. This is no secret for all who have watched this team the past 3-4 seasons.
 
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Watching games back last year, I feel like I underrated how incredible a rebounder Mag is. If he returns mostly back to his old athleticism, I wouldn't worry about the rebounding.
 
I've never seen him as anything more than a potential 3-point specialist, and one who needs to get more special at it. It's probably not a good sign if his role is increased much beyond that.
It won’t be once Mag is fully healthy and back . The player ( Osker) was asked back for his overall knowledge , positive work attitude , 5 fouls and yes the occasional couple of 3 pointers. Believe it or not he won’t cause us to lose a game.
 
LOL on out-of-position Hyatt at the 3, you also have an out-of-position Mag.
Some combination of Hyatt/Mag/Chol/Oskar/Wolf have to play well enough you want them on the court together (and Wolf with Cliff).

Another reason you want Gavin at the 2 - someone mentioned he got "lost" a few time early - this is an interesting way to put it. On ball screen coverage, Gavin was playing where he was the guy who bumped the roll man when Cliff or Wolff hard hedged (over hard hedged IMO but that a whole different conversation). Watch this action away from the ball if you haven't. Mag is great at it, one of the things that sets him apart defensively. The job is to basically crash into the roll man when he rolls and stay with him long enough for Cliff/Wolff to recover. Early in the game, Gavin stayed too long a couple of times, St John's did a nice job swinging the ball and Gavin recovered in time to contest, but a little late and guys made shots. One time later in the game, no doubt trying NOT to be late to get to the shooter, Gavin gave Soriano a fully body block while Wolf was hedging, then went right to his guy on the 3-point line, Wolf was still scrambling to get back and they threw Soriano an alley opp for a dunk. You go with a lineup with Gavin/Mag/Hyatt to get Mag in that role with Gavin on the floor.

With 2 small guards, Gavin, a 4 and Cliff, you have limited switching.
With Gavin at the 2, you can switch 2-3-4. And when you do something like zone press back to 2-3 then go to m2m late in the shot clock, you have a lot more matchup possibilities (yes they did that defensively in the scrimmage at least once and multiple times last season).
Not sure what you are LOLing for. Pike has tried Hyatt at the 3 before and it has never worked. He tried it over and over until he finally gave up and only played him at the 4. Do you not remember this at all?

If Hyatt can play the 3 effectively, great. But he has yet to prove he can. He was better at the 4, especially defensively and it limits his need to handle the ball as much
 
Certainly some positives to take out of today but that was a downright pathetic sequence that brought back painful memories of Houston and Notre Dame. Cliff failed twice to grab the rebound (he should have smacked the ball down court instead of tipping it), Oskar stood around and watched and Simpson inexplicably left his feet on the shot that went it.
If this was a regular season game I doubt Oskar is on the floor at crunch time.
 
I LOLed because positions aren't that absolute and Pike has shown that is how he plays players

Mag and Hyatt played 265.4 minutes together last season - 443 possessions according to cbbanalytics.com
They started a handful of games together, Miami, Temple and Rider etc
I agree last season, they were both better at the 4.

If those two are playing well, or if Chol and those two are playing well, or any combo of those 3 are playing well and PIke wants to get Wolf or Oskar minutes at the 4, it makes a ton of sense to get Griffiths minutes at the 2.

I get that it doesn't mean that much but it means something that both in Portugal and vs St John's Griffiths started at the 2 and Hyatt at the 3. I did a quick search and couldn't find it but I'm sure I read something about Pike saying Mag would get some time at the 3 this season.
Agree. I think Pike wants a team of interchangeable parts where multiple players can dribble, penetrate, score, run the floor and, hopefully, defend. Villanova won national championships with smaller guard centric lineups.
 
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Looked like Davis was playing through the end. The push off by SJU was apparent and seems like SJU was just like "give it up, kid, it is a scrimmage." Like the intensity. Just have to teach how to dial it.
He probably should have fallen back but the dopey refs need to call those obvious intentional push off fouls, it led to a skirmish.
 
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I LOLed because positions aren't that absolute and Pike has shown that is how he plays players

Mag and Hyatt played 265.4 minutes together last season - 443 possessions according to cbbanalytics.com
They started a handful of games together, Miami, Temple and Rider etc
I agree last season, they were both better at the 4.

If those two are playing well, or if Chol and those two are playing well, or any combo of those 3 are playing well and PIke wants to get Wolf or Oskar minutes at the 4, it makes a ton of sense to get Griffiths minutes at the 2.

I get that it doesn't mean that much but it means something that both in Portugal and vs St John's Griffiths started at the 2 and Hyatt at the 3. I did a quick search and couldn't find it but I'm sure I read something about Pike saying Mag would get some time at the 3 this season.
If you're expecting Oskar Chol and Wolf to all thrive at the 4, yes

It seems more likely based on reports and the scrimmage that we need to find more minutes for Davis along with Noah and Simpson. To do that, it likely means Gavin needs to play some 3 which then pushes Hyatt Mag minutes to the 4. That, in turn, means less minutes for Chol Oskar and Wolf at the 4

It's TBD what the rotation and minutes will look like and what lineup combos Pike wants to go with

There's only a set number of minutes. Early on if Mag isn't ready, there is more opportunity for the Chol Wolf Oskar 4. Once Mag is back, Oskar likely isn't in the rotation. Chol maybe limited minutes. Wolf likely mainly 5 backup. That's the scenario where the guards get more minutes. It shrinks the pie elsewhere

Williams also likely gets some minutes as well which is another guard
 
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Not sure what you are LOLing for. Pike has tried Hyatt at the 3 before and it has never worked. He tried it over and over until he finally gave up and only played him at the 4. Do you not remember this at all?

If Hyatt can play the 3 effectively, great. But he has yet to prove he can. He was better at the 4, especially defensively and it limits his need to handle the ball as much
I think i remember.

The problem I see….what the heck is the alternative?

The way this roster is constructed….
 
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Whatever you think about Oskar it was weird that he started and then bizarre that he played so much in OT after not playing at all in second half
I don't know what contributions that Oskar will make this year, but I don't expect much.

The thing that caught my attention about Oskar was putting him in the starting lineup. Now I know it's just a scrimmage, etc., but how do start a kid who left the school, signed elsewhere and then came back. I'm sorry I love Pike but that's just not right.
 
I think i remember.

The problem I see….what the heck is the alternative?

The way this roster is constructed….
Gavin, Mag, Williams would be the other options without going REALLY small with a Noah Davis Simpson lineup

Hyatt will likely play the 3 it seems. I'm just pointing out that Pike tried that before and it hasn't worked. Hopefully the Hyatt off season hype is real

Mag can guard quicker players at the 3, but his ball handling isn't ideal at the 3. Gavin gives us a good 3rd ball handler when he is at the 3. Williams isn't huge but he's bigger than the other guards. Does he deserve a lot of PT? That's TBD

There are tons of overall lineup combos and minutes distribution. I wonder if we see Pike use a more matchup dependant rotation where some games we see a player get a solid role and the next he goes a different direction outside of the main key rotation players
 
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Small guards better be able to create and make shots off the dribble because on defense, opponents with taller guards will shoot over them after posting up near the basket.
 
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Scangg

The way I see it…NON NEGOTIABLE…have to have to entertain thought of successful season.

1. Cliff STAY healthy-dont want to imagine us without him
2. Mag has to BE healthy
3. Gavin has to be the MAN. Double digit scorer with adequate D or play freshman D and be an elite scorer

We need Hyatts minutes be determined by his play and not be by default.
 
Scangg

The way I see it…NON NEGOTIABLE…have to have to entertain thought of successful season.

1. Cliff STAY healthy-dont want to imagine us without him
2. Mag has to BE healthy
3. Gavin has to be the MAN. Double digit scorer with adequate D or play freshman D and be an elite scorer

We need Hyatts minutes be determined by his play and not be by default.
0 wiggle room
 
I know rebounding isnt all about height, but we went from a ridiculously tall team to a pretty average height team.
Pike always wanted taller guards, but if you look at the successful teams in the NCAA, many have smaller guards that can play. As long as we rebound as a team, I don't think that will have much negative effect on us.

JMike hounds on defense, so I am not afraid of him playing guards that are taller. He is going to be a real pest for whoever he is guarding.

Best of Luck,
Groz
 
Scangg

The way I see it…NON NEGOTIABLE…have to have to entertain thought of successful season.

1. Cliff STAY healthy-dont want to imagine us without him
2. Mag has to BE healthy
3. Gavin has to be the MAN. Double digit scorer with adequate D or play freshman D and be an elite scorer

We need Hyatts minutes be determined by his play and not be by default.
Give Hyatts minutes to someone else, anybody please! Ive seen enough of him the last few years. I didn't believe the hype that he was way better , and the scrimmage proved he is what he's always been here, average at best.
 
Give Hyatts minutes to someone else, anybody please! Ive seen enough of him the last few years. I didn't believe the hype that he was way better , and the scrimmage proved he is what he's always been here, average at best.
Scrimmage proves zero….cant argue with anything else. Many good teams get contributions from 1-10 on the roster. If Hyatt ends up being the 9th or 10th guy he can still be a valuable piece. Jalen Miller helped us beat Purdue and turned our season around
 
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Give Hyatts minutes to someone else, anybody please! Ive seen enough of him the last few years. I didn't believe the hype that he was way better , and the scrimmage proved he is what he's always been here, average at best.
It's only one game so can't completely say it means everything, but certainly not encouraging especially since the Africa tour was against much lower competition so you would expect a 6th year player to be able to play well in those games
 
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I don't know what contributions that Oskar will make this year, but I don't expect much.

The thing that caught my attention about Oskar was putting him in the starting lineup. Now I know it's just a scrimmage, etc., but how do start a kid who left the school, signed elsewhere and then came back. I'm sorry I love Pike but that's just not right.
I am not sure but after seeing the interview with Oskar the offseason went like this. Pike might have had the "talk" with him and he chose Elon. When we lost Paul and Cam, last minute, it sounded like he got a phone call asking if he wanted to come back because we had room on the roster all of a sudden.
I know we heard about Oskar not happy about his room situation at Elon but the interview that didn't come up.
 
Small guards better be able to create and make shots off the dribble because on defense, opponents with taller guards will shoot over them after posting up near the basket.
Who are all these B1G teams with tall guards? Who are these guys posting up near the basket?
 
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Good thread, late to the party here.

Seems to me that we have three “smaller” guards who all need to see time at either the 1 or the 2. I’m guessing we will see Fernandes and Simpson averaging 25-28 mpg, and JMike 20+. That leaves about 10 minutes at the 2 for either GG or Austin.

So I see GG playing a lion’s share of his minutes at the 3 and the balance at the 2 - he will need to play 25-30 mpg. And the backup minutes at the 2 and 3 (beyond GG’s minutes) will be given to Austin.

Until Mag returns, Hyatt has to play almost exclusively at the 4, supplemented by Oskar, Chol, and Woolf.

After Mag returns and assimilates into the rotation, I think we see Mag at the 4 for 25 minutes, Hyatt there for 15 minutes, and Hyatt will probably need to get any additional minutes at the 3, probably pushing Austin further down the pecking order.

In this scenario, Oskar and Chol are the odd men out and will only play situationally.
 
By the way, just curious as to why MiloTalon deleted all of his posts in this thread. I was able to see them when others replied.
 
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By the way, just curious as to why MiloTalon deleted all of his posts in this thread. I was able to see them when others replied.
He keeps saying Gavin is playing the 2. I don’t see it. He didn’t defend any guards vs St John’s (from what I saw) and I don’t think he will defend any guards in the big ten. There may be a match up or two that works but from what I can see and have heard, Gavin will play the 3 most of the time and may get time at the 4 vs smaller teams. Gavin is going to be very good, especially on offense. I’m very high on him. His defense is going to take time to develop but he will struggle against quicker guards. I don’t see Pike putting him in that position as a freshman.
 
I am not sure but after seeing the interview with Oskar the offseason went like this. Pike might have had the "talk" with him and he chose Elon. When we lost Paul and Cam, last minute, it sounded like he got a phone call asking if he wanted to come back because we had room on the roster all of a sudden.
I know we heard about Oskar not happy about his room situation at Elon but the interview that didn't come up.
I think it was more about Ndongo decommitting. Austin and Jeremiah Williams were the replacements for Paul and Cam.
 
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