What’s holding back recruiting ?

[Eagleton96]

For recruiting, it takes more than 1 year to gain interest. While we say RU made the tournament last "2" years, recruits see we made it last year for the first time since they were born.

We also did not have some magical run,,(outside of us fanatics) with going out in round 2.

From a P5 perspective, we have not done anything more than ANY other P5 program. Many P5 schools have numerous NCAA appearances & levels of success that recruits saw as they were growing up.


So kids that are seniors now, saw RU do nothing for their k-8th grade years, freshman, and sophomore years too. When schools started recruiting them in 9th/10th grade, do you think they put RU at front or back of list?

It will take multiple years of consistent success in getting to and staying in NCAA tournament to get the interest of 4* kids. Until then, we have to develop talent.

The typical path for a successful rebuild is that a new coach has hopes and promises to sell and gets a couple of good new recruits. If the cookie crumbles the right way, through energy, player development, and hustle, they improve on the court in years 2-3. In year 4 they turn momentum into a big recruiting class.

Once you are off that trajectory it's hard to recover the momentum. Pike had all the momentum and didn't bring in the big recruiting classes. It's 100% a problem. I still like PIke a lot as a coach. He's far from done. But we definitely have a problem Houston.

 

[Mbash93]

2019 is not recent......hearsay is like the rumor mill

Jesus christ man give it up, I don't need to go by damn articles when I know one of his coaches. You are wrong, just let it go mr paragraph post every time

 

[RU-ROCS]

Pretty simple. We don’t have this guy!

 

[ruman]

I'm not happy with recruiting - but its a different world now

Iowa St went 2-22 last year - fired Prohm / hired TJ O from UNLV

He hit the portal for like 6 guys - they are Top 25 now

Not saying this is simple to do - but not having a great class is not a deal breaker - you can fix things in the portal. I hope Pikiell is much more aggressive hitting it this spring

 

[Fighter of the Nightman]

Rutgers isn't considered a destination school for top tier recruits.Pikiell must depend on player development which has shown mediocre results.Recruiting emphasis has been tall and athletic versus shooting ability ,

Neither was Baylor or Virginia or Clemson Football once upon a time. Right recruiter can get talent to most Power Five locations and definitely to the only broad appeal state school in NJ, a stone’s throw from NYC.

 

[RUsojo]

Missed this conversation on Harris but I’ll just add anyone arguing the idea that taking on his brother would be a non starter and we shouldn’t it (presumably because it wastes a ship) should pause because Pikiell never uses all his ships anyway.

 

[Mbash93]

Missed this conversation on Harris but I’ll just add anyone arguing the idea that taking on his brother would be a non starter and we shouldn’t it (presumably because it wastes a ship) should pause because Pikiell never uses all his ships anyway.

^^^^ we wasted scholarships on guys like Souf Mensah, Mamadou Docoure and Matt Bullock, I think Jamir Harris wouldn't have been an actual waste of a scholly

 

[toby83]

Anybody catch the Montverde game on espn last night? Their PG going to Indiana looks amazing, can shoot, uber athlete, under control.

 

[tjb]

Every one of us knew which schools were “better” academically without having to buy the US News rankings issue - at least if we were headed for a selective college.

So it goes for recruits. Even if they don’t know where the schools fall in the “hierarchy”, the people around them do.

That’s what Rutgers is fighting.

Good recruiters 1. ”win” kids above their slot in the hierarchy, 2. identify kids who can play above *their* spot in their hierarchy (hard to do consistently) or 3. develop kids beyond their expected potential (tough to do better than anyone else given the amount of money spent on this - staff, facilities, etc., by your peers).

If you’re looking up from the bottom of the Big 10, you have to recruit some kids who are looking at offers from the middle of the Big 10 or other P5 conferences - Iowa, Wake Forest, Minnesota, Illinois - and absolutely have to beat the bottom - Northwestern, Pitt, PSU.

If I were hiring at a school like RU, I’d look for evidence of a coach beating his peers (whoever they are) in those three categories in the league they compete in.

 

[fluoxetine]

^^^^ we wasted scholarships on guys like Souf Mensah, Mamadou Docoure and Matt Bullock, I think Jamir Harris wouldn't have been an actual waste of a scholly

Doucoure doesn't belong on this list, he was a 4 star recruit.

 

[fluoxetine]

Every one of us knew which schools were “better” academically without having to buy the US News rankings issue - at least if we were headed for a selective college.

So it goes for recruits. Even if they don’t know where the schools fall in the “hierarchy”, the people around them do.

That’s what Rutgers is fighting.

Good recruiters 1. ”win” kids above their slot in the hierarchy, 2. identify kids who can play above *their* spot in their hierarchy (hard to do consistently) or 3. develop kids beyond their expected potential (tough to do better than anyone else given the amount of money spent on this - staff, facilities, etc., by your peers).

If you’re looking up from the bottom of the Big 10, you have to recruit some kids who are looking at offers from the middle of the Big 10 or other P5 conferences - Iowa, Wake Forest, Minnesota, Illinois - and absolutely have to beat the bottom - Northwestern, Pitt, PSU.

If I were hiring at a school like RU, I’d look for evidence of a coach beating his peers (whoever they are) in those three categories in the league they compete in.

2 and 3 are difficult to separate but there is evidence that Pike does one or both of them well. #1 not so much.

 

[Mbash93]

Doucoure doesn't belong on this list, he was a 4 star recruit.

Yea but he clearly was over recruited, he is like a D2 level player

 

[fluoxetine]

Yea but he clearly was over recruited, he is like a D2 level player

Sure, but that seems like a different category than the others, who were complete reaches to begin with. No one would've thought offering Doucoure was "wasting a scholarship" at the time.

 

[Shelby65]

It’s not about ‘bagmen’ or practice facility or playing midwestern opponents. Top players want playing time and an opportunity to put up good numbers.

With our rosters in recent years, we’re a 50-60 ppg defense-oriented, stagnant O team that’s simply not attractive to top recruits.

And the scorers we had transferred which feeds the same narrative.

Our MO is solid defense. As our roster turns over we can become more O oriented and get those kinds of players.

 

[Vassar69]

 

[The RUT]

Our coach isn’t a closer, that’s the issue.

 

[RUonBrain]

Sadly true. All the greats have them. Even those with reputations for ethics, Krzyzewski, Wooden, all of them.
Pike's mentor certainly did.

The fact Pike’s mentor did made me think we would do the same (and good for us).
Guess he’s not, or not doing it well.

 

[Mr Magoo]

Honest question for discussion not to be negative. I know most of us believed after back to back successful seasons, good publicity, and facilities upgrades, we’d also improve recruiting. We can all hope the under Recruited develop, but RU Also needs to land more talent YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT. Can’t rely on player development Alone. So what is the problem?

Assistants?
Academic standards?
Pikes stubbornness for doing it his way with under Recruited ?

I know one thing, Transfer Recruitment philosophy has to change immediately or Pike won’t survive...can’t be worried about players asking about offense, shots, and playing Time. Talent trumps all. Good coaches figure it out.

…and he can’t be everyone’s friend and loyal to a fault. This is still a business and he’s getting paid a lot of money to produce results. He seems too nice to get we we should be. I honestly believe he’s not a bullshitter (although “best team ever” has me skeptical). Perhaps he’s too straightforward with recruits and that’s why he’s not closing? A lot of a player’s PT has to be “on them” and not on what the coach tells them.

 

[bac2therac]

They typical path for a successful rebuild is that a new coach has hopes and promises to sell and get's a couple of good new recruits. If the cookie crumbles the right way, through energy, player development, and hustle, they improve on the court in years 2-3. In year 4 they turn momentum into a big recruiting class.

Once you are off that trajectory it's hard to recover the momentum. Pike had all the momentum and didn't bring in the big recruiting classes. It's 100% a problem. I still like PIke a lot as a coach. He's far from done. But we definitely have a problem Houston.

Hit the nail

Ill add that the covid situation played a role in recruiting and the extra year given to players hamstrung Pike a bit. He didn't adapt quickly like some other coaches did. Two things..too much loyalty and lack of aggressiveness in searching the portal

This can still be fixed next year in the portal..he can offer MAJOR minutes but will he do it at the expense of slashing Paul and Calebs minutes

 

[willisneverrana43]

. . .
Assistants?
Academic standards?
Pikes stubbornness for doing it his way with under Recruited ?

I know one thing, Transfer Recruitment philosophy has to change immediately or Pike won’t survive...can’t be worried about players asking about offense, shots, and playing Time. . . .

Assistants? Sure. Pike’s assistants don’t seem to be good at recruiting. But I think that’s a reflection of Pike. He’s had chances to upgrade when assistants leave by getting recruiters but didn’t.

Academics? No. That’s an excuse.

Stubbornness of wanting to do it with under the radar recruits? No. That’s a made-up thing. Pike’s offering the big-time recruits who are on everybody’s radar, but he’s just losing those recruiting battles and settling for guys further down his offer list. We just saw this play out over the last few months. He lost recruiting battle after recruiting battle and was forced to sign guys with almost no offers.

Improperly focusing on transfer players who don’t ask for playing time and opportunities to score? Not true. More nonsense. That’s just a thing you, as a coach, say when you failed to successfully recruit and get the better transfers. We just heard Pike a couple of days ago say that Miller was asking for playing time and good for him. He says all the time that he tells his guys to just keep taking good shots and they’ll eventually start falling. He—like every sane coach—wants players who WANT to play and score. The problem is that landing good transfers is just another form of recruiting, and so we see the same problem that we see recruiting HS players. Our coach and assistants lose transfer recruiting battles way too often.

Recruiting may also be a problem with retaining players, which is another form of recruiting. What do you think this roster will look like if Harper leaves over his mistaken belief that the NBA is a possibility and Cliff transfers out? Oof.

Some coaches just don’t have it when it comes to recruiting. Others don’t properly emphasize it. But recruiting is hard. It’s as intense a battle as the actual games. And if the coach isn’t good at it or doesn’t get the right people to do it and organize it, you’ll lose more and more games before they ever even tip off.

 

[higgins3]

Pikiell has to continue to hunt NJ. It's a good bet for him.

The 5 stars require a lot of energy and when you miss, you are left with nothing.

That's probably one of the reason he goes for underrated recruits.

 

[Caliknight]

We are not recruiting on a level playing field with many other P5 schools. Our recruits are the best kids he can find that he can get to come here. That being said we don’t give the added incentives most other P5 schools give. You can’t coach up height, strength or speed. He recruits 2-3 stars because the 4 stars usually dont come here for men’s hoops. The practice facility is not the magnet we were told it would be. Beside incentives most players like an uptempo offense and that is not the offense we have had with this staff.

The facility was never a magnet. Every school has something similar if not better.

Recruiting is slimy. We don’t have the stomach for it as a school or alumni.

If I was Pike I’d scour the Euro market.

 

[kcg88]

The facility was never a magnet. Every school has something similar if not better.

Recruiting is slimy. We don’t have the stomach for it as a school or alumni.

If I was Pike I’d scour the Euro market.

He's tried that. We've got Palmquist and we missed on Bobi Klintman.

 

[bac2therac]

so I was just searching through some old threads from 2017, 2019 and even one from last year after the Penn State loss.....one constant was alot of posters had major concerns about Pikiell's recruiting and were concerned over the misses like Doucore, Mensah, Bullock, Kiss.

Its not Pikiell's coaching that has been the concern although that is debatable now, Rutgers fans have always been worried about his wobbly recruiting.

 

[MCKnight2004]

Simpson and a football player coming in next year following a disaster class of Reiber Palmquist and Mag is not making anyone feel excited....and the attitude and approach to the transfer portal is the biggest concern. pike does not show a willingness to adjust to this new normal and NEED to attack the transfer portal to be successful. Cliff and Jones have a chance to be IMPACT players this year, let’s see it...but half of us think they’ll transfer after a 11-20 season

 

[RC80]

This is actually the most important question & a lot of serious well thought out reasons given. Hope this type of dialogue continues. To me - seems like Wenzel is closest comparison to now; had to dig out of a creator - got team to two tourneys - and was given 9 years. Of course the next set of moves didn't exactly work either.

 

[willisneverrana43]

so I was just searching through some old threads from 2017, 2019 and even one from last year after the Penn State loss.....one constant was alot of posters had major concerns about Pikiell's recruiting and were concerned over the misses like Doucore, Mensah, Bullock, Kiss.

Its not Pikiell's coaching that has been the concern although that is debatable now, Rutgers fans have always been worried about his wobbly recruiting.

To steal a phrase: It's the recruiting, stupid.

 

[zebnatto]

With solid back to back seasons, this was the year to pick up on the recruiting front.. But no. If we have as bad a season as most of us expect this year, has that window cloaed, at least with Pike at the helm. Certainly, it'll get tougher. (Portal, this is Rutgers calling.)

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Jesus christ man give it up, I don't need to go by damn articles when I know one of his coaches. You are wrong, just let it go mr paragraph post every time

You mentioned it, and got called out on it....you were so full of BS, you didn't even have the courage to actually name the recruit.....it wasn't until I responded with the name of the player, that you kept claiming that it happened...it's not complicated....the player (supposedly) claims he wants to go to RU....if true, he'd be committed......

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

The portal really isn't fixing multiple problems or holes in your roster....ask Maryland how that's working out for their 3 or 4 portal kids....one frosh already left last week, another doesn't play at all......Pike and the staff didn't come up with the next Caleb McConnell or Myles Johnson that can play and offers immediate impact off the bench.....we got Palmquist, Reiber, Mag and now Miller instead, which means they need more time or aren't future starters.......adding in Simpson and Woolfork and it puts an enormous amount of pressure on Simpson to be good early next year......have we added a starting caliber player outside of Cliff and Jones, since the 2018 class??

 

[Mbash93]

You mentioned it, and got called out on it....you were so full of BS, you didn't even have the courage to actually name the recruit.....it wasn't until I responded with the name of the player, that you kept claiming that it happened...it's not complicated....the player (supposedly) claims he wants to go to RU....if true, he'd be committed......

It was Jaquan Harris. The other two recruits I was referring to was Quadry Adams and Trey Patterson. Happy now.

Stick to mortgage lending because you are clueless at basketball

I also said "wanted" not "wants" work on your reading comprehension as well

 

[higgins3]

Simpson and a football player coming in next year following a disaster class of Reiber Palmquist and Mag is not making anyone feel excited....and the attitude and approach to the transfer portal is the biggest concern. pike does not show a willingness to adjust to this new normal and NEED to attack the transfer portal to be successful. Cliff and Jones have a chance to be IMPACT players this year, let’s see it...but half of us think they’ll transfer after a 11-20 season

I have faith that Mag can play in the big ten. Reiber, Palmquist, not sure yet and would be surprised if they panned out. For the athleticism that Cliff has, his game also has major holes. Not sure yet on Jones.

Simpson is pretty decent.The football player, Wolffolk has some good moves and plays with the physicality needed at this level.

 

[higgins3]

NJH is on point with the athleticism on the current roster. We have five starters with one having above average athleticism and the other four average, or even below average for the D1 level.

 

[Mbash93]

I have faith that Mag can play in the big ten. Reiber, Palmquist, not sure yet and would be surprised if they panned out. For the athleticism that Cliff has, his game also has major holes. Not sure yet on Jones.

Simpson is pretty decent.The football player, Wolffolk has some good moves and plays with the physicality needed at this level.

I'm not worried about simpson, but woolfolk seems like he's going to take 3 years to contribute

 

[mikeyo]

Honest question for discussion not to be negative. I know most of us believed after back to back successful seasons, good publicity, and facilities upgrades, we’d also improve recruiting. We can all hope the under Recruited develop, but RU Also needs to land more talent YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT. Can’t rely on player development Alone. So what is the problem?

Assistants?
Academic standards?
Pikes stubbornness for doing it his way with under Recruited ?

I know one thing, Transfer Recruitment philosophy has to change immediately or Pike won’t survive...can’t be worried about players asking about offense, shots, and playing Time. Talent trumps all. Good coaches figure it out.

We don't pay players. We don't provide no-show jobs. We don't provide houses or
jobs for relatives. We don't hire recruits' AAU or HS coaches. I could go on. And Pike
is not the one making that policy, to be fair

 

[Caliknight]

He's tried that. We've got Palmquist and we missed on Bobi Klintman.

Try harder.

 

[Mr Magoo]

The portal really isn't fixing multiple problems or holes in your roster....ask Maryland how that's working out for their 3 or 4 portal kids....one frosh already left last week, another doesn't play at all......Pike and the staff didn't come up with the next Caleb McConnell or Myles Johnson that can play and offers immediate impact off the bench.....we got Palmquist, Reiber, Mag and now Miller instead, which means they need more time or aren't future starters.......adding in Simpson and Woolfork and it puts an enormous amount of pressure on Simpson to be good early next year......have we added a starting caliber player outside of Cliff and Jones, since the 2018 class??

Didn’t Minnesota massively re-haul using the portal? They were decimated after Pitino was canned and now they are 7-0 with a road win today at Mississippi State. True, their OOC schedule is garbage like ours but they look miles ahead of our dysfunctional team right now.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Didn’t Minnesota massively re-haul using the portal? They were decimated after Pitino was canned and now they are 7-0 with a road win today at Mississippi State. True, their OOC schedule is garbage like ours but they look miles ahead of our dysfunctional team right now.

In a full rebuild when literally no one stayed, sure you piece it together with a roster....Pike really does not have an excuse for 2022, but the real fix is not to grab random kids....RU needs better long-term options, not quick fixes out of desperation.

If you take 2 high quality athletes that are frosh in 2022 and add 2 more from the portal, you fix both problems. It would require some roster attrition unless Caleb isn't here for a 5th year.

 

[Mr Magoo]

In a full rebuild when literally no one stayed, sure you piece it together with a roster....Pike really does not have an excuse for 2022, but the real fix is not to grab random kids....RU needs better long-term options, not quick fixes out of desperation.

If you take 2 high quality athletes that are frosh in 2022 and add 2 more from the portal, you fix both problems. It would require some roster attrition unless Caleb isn't here for a 5th year.

True….and I don’t have a crystal ball, but next year has all the makings of an Eddie Jordan season from the looks of it. Even if you plug the holes, the bench could be catastrophic. I can’t imagine Caleb will be here. I only hope Cliff and Jaden will.

BTW, Minnesota got 6 players out of the portal for this season.. that’s quite a haul.

 

[MCKnight2004]

Can Caleb and Ron return for a 5th season? Didn’t everyone get granted an extra year bc of COVID last year ?
I doubt they come back, but they both could join Paul and Cliff and Jaden to give a core again...still would need to add scoring guards, speed, depth, size