Carino: “Big Ten needs a philosophy change. Theyre running slow offenses through bigs like it’s 1985”

[Loyal_2RU]

What I want to know is after watching how teams like Arkansas, Creighton, uconn, Houston, Alabama, Miami etc played in this tournament why would you want to continue playing the "big ten style" even if it wasn’t a detriment to national success (which it is).

I like our style of play. Hard nose, grind it out. Unless we can play like 75-76 with great D, great transition, and fast fast fast, that I liked even better

 

[Loyal_2RU]

The conference bashing or stating conference A is better than conference B doesn’t hold up for most of the time periods. Hawk has cited going back to the 80’s and 90’s and the Big 10 record but that isn’t very relevant
Here is another stat; From 2000-2019 the BIG 10 reached 16 Final Fours and the most of any conference and 48 Sweet 16 ‘s just shy of the ACC’s 50 during that time. The Big 10 has played in the National Championship game and lost in 2005 Illinois , 2007 Ohio State , 2009 Michigan State , 2013 Michigan , 2015 Wisconsin and 2018 Michigan . So losing 6 championships games in 13 years is a little bit of bad luck.
So the narrative prior to 2018/2019 is just stupid and dumb. Considering how many years the data is there from 2000.

Next , the argument about the lack of NBA Talent but that isn’t it either as the BIG 10 had the most players drafted in 2022 and still did not win in 2022 and likely will not win in 2023 and will still have a number drafted this year.

So is it style of play going through the bigs or is it the better seeded teams just underperformed. In 2021 Illinois as a 1 and Iowa as a 2 and Ohio State as a 2 lost to a 15 seed and in 2022 top seeded Wisconsin and Illinois and Iowa off their Big 10 tourney championship flamed out as well . This year Purdue was a flawed team and flamed out but seeded 1 but the rest of the conference , went 5-3 on Days 1 and 2 but only MSU survives but the losses by Maryland 7 seed lost to a 1 Alabama ; NW a 7 seed loses to first 2 Seed UCLA ; Penn State a 10 seed loses to second 2 seed in Texas , so all 3 lost to not only regular season or conference tourney champs , 2 out of 3 in competitive games. Indiana a 4 lost to Miami a 5 ,,, another regular season ACC champ . Illinois and Iowa spit the bit and lost in 8/ 9 matchups. So this year it is just losing to higher seeded teams except Purdue. This is also the first year there are no dominant teams not Alabama , not Houston , not Kansas , not UCLA or Texas either. Just the losses to higher seeded teams that happened to win championships.

So the argument of more athletic NBA talent and guards doesn’t hold water in 2022 when Iowa with Murray , Purdue with IVey; Wisconsin with Jonny Davis , Ohio State with Malaki Brangham , or going back to 2019 with Purdue losing with Carson Edwards. So not concluding that as the reason.


The only thing that seems to be true from the eye test , is that teams that play more uptempo , shoot more 3’s especially in transition and make them seem to have success over the possession to possession half court teams. But that doesn’t explain Tennessee or Houston or San Diego State lockdown defensive efforts to beat Duke , Auburn and Furman ( who beat Virginia ‘s half court style with their transition 3’s )

The only thing one can conclude when all the teams in the country are flawed is that you better shoot the 3 well and you better play pretty decent defense.and rebound to have a better chance of winning than losing. I wonder if the answer is that the Big 10 grind of 20 games plus the tourney has left the teams without the legs to shoot well enough to win and still play the defense that they do in order to win.

The Big 12 , without much doubt was a gauntlet this year and they killed each other for 18 games plus the tourney but they only have 2 of 7 left , one being Texas , their tourney champ ( who only beat Penn State because they went thru their Big who scored a career high 28 points ) and Kansas State . Their 1,3,5,6,7 are out. The BiG 10 fatigue filtered to the BIG 12 this year as well.

Thank you for saving me the work of writing that..


The lemmings following the sheep on these stupid narratives about the B1G...

 

[littlenis5]

The B1G is doing a terrible job recruiting NBA level talent. It’s not rocket science

I’ve seen this a lot and not sure if this is the real issue. The conference had 3 top 10 picks last year (Murray, Ivey, Johnny Davis). FDU and Princeton aren’t flush with NBA talent.

The conference does have a glut of talented but non-NBA style bigs. There’s almost a trickle down that because good teams in the conference of good old school centers, every team needs strong bigs to counter it. Look at the centers in the Big 12 and SEC vs B1G…it’s a different level of athleticism.

Stylistically this dictates everything. Teams play slower and more physical. Even quick guards like Ivey have restricted freedom of movement and can’t take over like other leagues guards go.

 

[RutgersClassof2004]

You act as if Rutgers and the rest of the b1g outside of NW doesn't accept NCAA minimum qualifiers haha.

Northwestern does too, but to a somewhat lesser extent. The academic argument is nonsense. Anyway, not that hard to get passing grades and play ball, when entire university looking out to make sure you are eligible.

 

[RutgersClassof2004]

Im looking deeper than one year bac. My memory hasnt failed me.

Just in case you forgot as recently as a year ago:

ACC: 3 teams in the elite 8, 2 in the final 4, 1 in the natty

How many years since the big ten has won a natty?

Big Ten will get 5-6 bids next year. Committee will finally admit...talent as it stands now simply subpar. They're correct.

 

[goru7]

i

What I want to know is after watching how teams like Arkansas, Creighton, uconn, Houston, Alabama, Miami etc played in this tournament why would you want to continue playing the "big ten style" even if it wasn’t a detriment to national success (which it is).

Creighton , Miami and Alabama I will give you that uptempo works for them because they have multiple 3 point shooters like 3-4 that also shoot them in transition. I actually think RU could have been an effective transition uptempo team and when we got our defense cranked up we did play better offensively that way.
But Arkansas , Houston Tennessee San Diego State and UConn run a half court offense that at times has been as ugly as ours , They won with defense , kinda like our defense and timely offense. We need quality depth which prevented this team from joining those 5 in the Sweet 16. Pike is addressing that and bringing in more 3 point shot makers and more athletic guards and wings.

 

[RUsojo]

i

Creighton , Miami and Alabama I will give you that uptempo works for them because they have multiple 3 point shooters like 3-4 that also shoot them in transition. I actually think RU could have been an effective transition uptempo team and when we got our defense cranked up we did play better offensively that way.
But Arkansas , Houston Tennessee San Diego State and UConn run a half court offense that at times has been as ugly as ours , They won with defense , kinda like our defense and timely offense. We need quality depth which prevented this team from joining those 5 in the Sweet 16. Pike is addressing that and bringing in more 3 point shot makers and more athletic guards and wings.

in your second group you listed two top 10 offense and two top 50 offenses.

 

[Erial_Lion]

Big Ten will get 5-6 bids next year. Committee will finally admit...talent as it stands now simply subpar. They're correct.

Great point…have to give extra bids to the CUSA and Ivy with their superior talent.

 

[biazza38]

Big Ten will get 5-6 bids next year. Committee will finally admit...talent as it stands now simply subpar. They're correct.

This is just silly. Sooooo are you saying Maryland, Illinois, and PSU shouldn’t get in?
Again, the problem for the B1G isn’t the depth of the overall conference. It’s the depth at the top of the conference. The ACC and the Pac12 aren’t great at the top either.

 

[goru7]

in your second group you listed two top 10 offense and two top 50 offenses.

I do not consider anyone in that second group a consistently good offensive team. Now, one player might go off like Sasser or Hawkins and go for 25-30 and that skews the offense stats. Watched a ton of possessions of both those teams that result in ugliness. Also some 3-24 three point shooting nights.

 

[Shelby65]

Wrong

LOL. I bet you think Ace Bailey committed here instead of Auburn and Kentucky thinking he’s supposed to go to class ? For what ? For the 20 credits in Hoops Studies before he figures he’ll go pro with his NIL bank ? Ha ha. I don’t know what to tell you other than that you have no idea what CBB is about in 2023. If players want to go to class, Pike won’t stop them. But that’s nearly irrelevant to him no matter what he says, same as any other coach.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

This is just silly. Sooooo are you saying Maryland, Illinois, and PSU shouldn’t get in?
Again, the problem for the B1G isn’t the depth of the overall conference. It’s the depth at the top of the conference. The ACC and the Pac12 aren’t great at the top either.

Yes - so silly. Illinois and any BIG team will get in again and again with a pair of non-conference wins over 2 seeds provided they perform average in BIG play.

 

[IL Lusciato]

In the last 5 years, P12 has had 2 teams in the final four and SEC 1 team. The B1G had 2. Those leagues have not passed us.

Yeah, too much gets made of this I think. Its just a crazy tournament and it's 1 team vs 1 team in every match. Too much gets made of the conference thing in the tournament.

 

[IL Lusciato]

The conference bashing or stating conference A is better than conference B doesn’t hold up for most of the time periods. Hawk has cited going back to the 80’s and 90’s and the Big 10 record but that isn’t very relevant
Here is another stat; From 2000-2019 the BIG 10 reached 16 Final Fours and the most of any conference and 48 Sweet 16 ‘s just shy of the ACC’s 50 during that time. The Big 10 has played in the National Championship game and lost in 2005 Illinois , 2007 Ohio State , 2009 Michigan State , 2013 Michigan , 2015 Wisconsin and 2018 Michigan . So losing 6 championships games in 13 years is a little bit of bad luck.
So the narrative prior to 2018/2019 is just stupid and dumb. Considering how many years the data is there from 2000.

Next , the argument about the lack of NBA Talent but that isn’t it either as the BIG 10 had the most players drafted in 2022 and still did not win in 2022 and likely will not win in 2023 and will still have a number drafted this year.

So is it style of play going through the bigs or is it the better seeded teams just underperformed. In 2021 Illinois as a 1 and Iowa as a 2 and Ohio State as a 2 lost to a 15 seed and in 2022 top seeded Wisconsin and Illinois and Iowa off their Big 10 tourney championship flamed out as well . This year Purdue was a flawed team and flamed out but seeded 1 but the rest of the conference , went 5-3 on Days 1 and 2 but only MSU survives but the losses by Maryland 7 seed lost to a 1 Alabama ; NW a 7 seed loses to first 2 Seed UCLA ; Penn State a 10 seed loses to second 2 seed in Texas , so all 3 lost to not only regular season or conference tourney champs , 2 out of 3 in competitive games. Indiana a 4 lost to Miami a 5 ,,, another regular season ACC champ . Illinois and Iowa spit the bit and lost in 8/ 9 matchups. So this year it is just losing to higher seeded teams except Purdue. This is also the first year there are no dominant teams not Alabama , not Houston , not Kansas , not UCLA or Texas either. Just the losses to higher seeded teams that happened to win championships.

So the argument of more athletic NBA talent and guards doesn’t hold water in 2022 when Iowa with Murray , Purdue with IVey; Wisconsin with Jonny Davis , Ohio State with Malaki Brangham , or going back to 2019 with Purdue losing with Carson Edwards. So not concluding that as the reason.


The only thing that seems to be true from the eye test , is that teams that play more uptempo , shoot more 3’s especially in transition and make them seem to have success over the possession to possession half court teams. But that doesn’t explain Tennessee or Houston or San Diego State lockdown defensive efforts to beat Duke , Auburn and Furman ( who beat Virginia ‘s half court style with their transition 3’s )

The only thing one can conclude when all the teams in the country are flawed is that you better shoot the 3 well and you better play pretty decent defense.and rebound to have a better chance of winning than losing. I wonder if the answer is that the Big 10 grind of 20 games plus the tourney has left the teams without the legs to shoot well enough to win and still play the defense that they do in order to win.

The Big 12 , without much doubt was a gauntlet this year and they killed each other for 18 games plus the tourney but they only have 2 of 7 left , one being Texas , their tourney champ ( who only beat Penn State because they went thru their Big who scored a career high 28 points ) and Kansas State . Their 1,3,5,6,7 are out. The BiG 10 fatigue filtered to the BIG 12 this year as well.

Wow excellent post. I love when false media narratives are killed in their cradles. I was starting to believe it too, but it seems like BS.

 

[MiloTalon13]

in your second group you listed two top 10 offense and two top 50 offenses.

Top 50 scoring or efficiency?
A team could have a top-efficiency offense and play slow, post-oriented offense, right?
Efficiency is more like points per possession than total points.

 

[biazza38]

Yes - so silly. Illinois and any BIG team will get in again and again with a pair of non-conference wins over 2 seeds provided they perform average in BIG play.

Then I guess we shouldn’t play out of conference games if they don’t mean anything. What you’re saying is totally illogical. Should someone like Clemson or UNC be in over Illinois then?
Again, the issue for the B1G is at the top of the conference. The teams are more than capable of competing outside of the conference. Only getting 1 team in the sweet 16 makes sense. We only had 1 team in the top 16 for the majority of the year.

 

[Bayonnebomber79]

The conference bashing or stating conference A is better than conference B doesn’t hold up for most of the time periods. Hawk has cited going back to the 80’s and 90’s and the Big 10 record but that isn’t very relevant
Here is another stat; From 2000-2019 the BIG 10 reached 16 Final Fours and the most of any conference and 48 Sweet 16 ‘s just shy of the ACC’s 50 during that time. The Big 10 has played in the National Championship game and lost in 2005 Illinois , 2007 Ohio State , 2009 Michigan State , 2013 Michigan , 2015 Wisconsin and 2018 Michigan . So losing 6 championships games in 13 years is a little bit of bad luck.
So the narrative prior to 2018/2019 is just stupid and dumb. Considering how many years the data is there from 2000.

Next , the argument about the lack of NBA Talent but that isn’t it either as the BIG 10 had the most players drafted in 2022 and still did not win in 2022 and likely will not win in 2023 and will still have a number drafted this year.

So is it style of play going through the bigs or is it the better seeded teams just underperformed. In 2021 Illinois as a 1 and Iowa as a 2 and Ohio State as a 2 lost to a 15 seed and in 2022 top seeded Wisconsin and Illinois and Iowa off their Big 10 tourney championship flamed out as well . This year Purdue was a flawed team and flamed out but seeded 1 but the rest of the conference , went 5-3 on Days 1 and 2 but only MSU survives but the losses by Maryland 7 seed lost to a 1 Alabama ; NW a 7 seed loses to first 2 Seed UCLA ; Penn State a 10 seed loses to second 2 seed in Texas , so all 3 lost to not only regular season or conference tourney champs , 2 out of 3 in competitive games. Indiana a 4 lost to Miami a 5 ,,, another regular season ACC champ . Illinois and Iowa spit the bit and lost in 8/ 9 matchups. So this year it is just losing to higher seeded teams except Purdue. This is also the first year there are no dominant teams not Alabama , not Houston , not Kansas , not UCLA or Texas either. Just the losses to higher seeded teams that happened to win championships.

So the argument of more athletic NBA talent and guards doesn’t hold water in 2022 when Iowa with Murray , Purdue with IVey; Wisconsin with Jonny Davis , Ohio State with Malaki Brangham , or going back to 2019 with Purdue losing with Carson Edwards. So not concluding that as the reason.


The only thing that seems to be true from the eye test , is that teams that play more uptempo , shoot more 3’s especially in transition and make them seem to have success over the possession to possession half court teams. But that doesn’t explain Tennessee or Houston or San Diego State lockdown defensive efforts to beat Duke , Auburn and Furman ( who beat Virginia ‘s half court style with their transition 3’s )

The only thing one can conclude when all the teams in the country are flawed is that you better shoot the 3 well and you better play pretty decent defense.and rebound to have a better chance of winning than losing. I wonder if the answer is that the Big 10 grind of 20 games plus the tourney has left the teams without the legs to shoot well enough to win and still play the defense that they do in order to win.

The Big 12 , without much doubt was a gauntlet this year and they killed each other for 18 games plus the tourney but they only have 2 of 7 left , one being Texas , their tourney champ ( who only beat Penn State because they went thru their Big who scored a career high 28 points ) and Kansas State . Their 1,3,5,6,7 are out. The BiG 10 fatigue filtered to the BIG 12 this year as well.

This is an excellent counterpoint to the lazy national media expert narrative that the Big 10 hasn’t won a national championship in over 20 years. I’ve been listening to Packer on the ACC network spew this BS for well over a year . It’s easy and lazy to cherry pick a few facts instead of digging deeper. In reality it really doesn’t matter how many NC’s are won, it’s the total “ body of work “ in the tournament. In this respect the B10 stacks up well against the other power conferences. that said
“Let’s go MSU!”

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Then I guess we shouldn’t play out of conference games if they don’t mean anything. What you’re saying is totally illogical. Should someone like Clemson or UNC be in over Illinois then?
Again, the issue for the B1G is at the top of the conference. The teams are more than capable of competing outside of the conference. Only getting 1 team in the sweet 16 makes sense. We only had 1 team in the top 16 for the majority of the year.

Huh? I am agreeing that the post saying we’ll get a max of 6 teams is silly. There is zero chance a team with a Illinois’ overall record and 2 OOC wins over 2 seeds will ever be omitted from the field.

 

[The RUT]

The national championship argument is the dumbest argument in all of sports.

Guys in 2014 The American Athletic Conference was the best basketball conference because UConn won the natty.

GTFOH.

 

[biazza38]

Huh? I am agreeing that the post saying we’ll get a max of 6 teams is silly. There is zero chance a team with an Illinois’ overall record and 2 OOC wins over 2 seeds will ever be omitted from the field.

I was confused with the the way you worded your post.

 

[RUsojo]

Great offense on display tonight

 

[fluoxetine]

Where are all the people who said the models having UConn in the top ten were “obviously wrong”?

 

[burtmanjack]

Where are all the people who said the models having UConn in the top ten were “obviously wrong”?

Big East is just a midmajor anyway.

 

[fluoxetine]

Big East is just a midmajor anyway.

So is the AAC but that doesn’t stop Houston.

 

[burtmanjack]

So is the AAC but that doesn’t stop Houston.

UCONN = Houston

Xavier = ?????

Creighton = ??????

 

[fluoxetine]

UCONN = Houston

Xavier = ?????

Creighton = ??????

I don’t know, why are you asking me this? I’ve never called the BE a mid major, it’s obviously a power conference.

 

[cm_13]

I don’t know, why are you asking me this? I’ve never called the BE a mid major, it’s obviously a power conference.

Unless I’m mistaken… isn’t he the one who just called the Big East a mid major?

 

[fluoxetine]

Unless I’m mistaken… isn’t he the one who just called the Big East a mid major?

Yes.. but from his follow up I gathered he was being sarcastic? And now he’s arguing with me because I appeared to agree with him? I dunno it’s confusing lol

 

[FIJI'83]

There is no arguing this is a bad look for the conference. Put National championships aside the Big Ten is having major trouble getting teams in the Elite 8

 

[biazza38]

View embedded media

There is no arguing this is a bad look for the conference. Put National championships aside the Big Ten is having major trouble getting teams in the Elite 8

The top of the conference has been a major let down. It’s a bunch of good teams, not great. Illinois and Purdue have been major disappointments. Illinois when they lost in the second round to Loyola Chicago and then Purdue this year and last year. The weird thing is, both team perform well in OOC play

 

[RUsojo]

I do not consider anyone in that second group a consistently good offensive team. Now, one player might go off like Sasser or Hawkins and go for 25-30 and that skews the offense stats. Watched a ton of possessions of both those teams that result in ugliness. Also some 3-24 three point shooting nights.

uconn up 32 5mins left imagine if they had a conistent offense and not just the 3rd most efficient one