If you're not going to donate, you'll just have to be patient
- Thread starter rutgersal
- Start date
Also did not assert anything. You inferred that’s what I said. What I did say was, it’s important to watch film correctly.
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You’re in my thread pal, feel free to start your own. Don’t try to hide behind semantics and jargon to discredit the basic point raised, which is the kid is going to use off-season film study to get better.
It’s a Rutgers fan message board, we can be superficial.
No he did not, he said: "Show me evidence where Gavin knows how to watch film properly? If you continuously make the wrong reads and are not in position to make the play what does that tell you. It’s either he is not a legit qb(not saying that) he wasn’t coached properly on field (possibility) he didn’t learn from film work (better possibility)."
What @kupuna133 said was there were three possibilities when a QB makes wrong reads: (1) not a legit QB (he denied); (2) (not coached properly on field (possibility); (3) he did not learn from film work (better possibility).
Greg said at his end of season presser that it could be on the coaching staff why players or position groups are underperforming, it could be on execution (the players), or a combination of both.
We have repeatedly provided the example of Nova not learning how to read defenses and mechanics until Friedgen coached him in his final year. This happens frequently, and most fans do not realize it.
There is another component at player here, which falls under coaching- and that is offensive scheme and game plan, which is completely on the coaches.
You started this thread on the premise that if fans were not going to donate, they would have to be patient. Giving to the NIL is NOT going to fix the coaching issues on offense.
Let's be real, Rutgers football fans have been very kind to Wimsatt, if this was a fanbase that truly cared about winning he would not be treated with such kid gloves. But like you said, this board is for superficial nonsense, no need to let reality enter the conversation.
Thanks knightshift but I’m done with this thread. Goalposts moved too many times for my liking. Love when someone changes the narrative and say someone is “hiding behind semantics and jargon” when someone has more than basic understanding of the game and coaching.
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Oh, I got confused about who you were talking about. But speed is far from the only thing a receiver needs. Good route-running skills and a strong body and hands are necessary. You may have watched the Eagles-Cowboys game, in which a Cowboy defender literally pulled a pass out of the receiver's hands for an interception. And, of course, a receiver must also be able to get off press coverage. You may remember the Olympic sprinter Frank Budd, who signed with the Eagles as a wide receiver in the early 1960s. His career was quite short.
Schiano meddling in the offense has been going around on the boards for years, back to his first tour of duty with us. Frankly I never put any stock in it, putting it down to fans grousing at the head coach. After all, not only was he the head coach but also the defensive coordinator at the time. How could he possibly have had the time to insert himself into the offense as well?
But I've seen several times where you've mentioned this season that he's meddling. You're not a guy I consider an emotional poster, generally your posts are thoughtful and well considered. So I have to ask, is this meddling thing something you're hearing from inside the program or just suspecting based on results on the field?
I have no inside info.
But remember the various timeouts and sideline meetings with Schiano and Gleeson where Greg looked like he was going to stroke out he was so stressed out? He and Sean were going at something that was quite intense. Seemed Greg and Sean were discussing the play/strategy. Could be wrong, but what else would they be discussing? Maybe Greg was blowing off steam because Adam Korsak was too busy to talk with him.
The interesting thing about Alabama is that they changed their philosophy after winning multiple National Championships with game manager QBs and dominant talent at all the other positions. Saban was proactive in changing both their style and recruiting philosophy.
I've mentioned it here before and posted excerpts from an Athletic article. It was a conversation with Phil Bennett and the Briles Baylor offense. Saban knew sooner or later it was coming to the SEC and he wanted to information on it. Kiffin was the OC he hired to try and open up their offense.
I do remember those. I thought Schiano might have an aneurysm. Poor Sean, getting fired must have been a relief. There are several ways of interpreting those exchanges, not knowing what was said. He clearly wasn't happy but it sure looked to me like Sean was running the offense. Why else would Greg be so angry when it wasn't working? If he was inserting himself into the offense, he'd have nobody but himself to blame.
I could be completely wrong. He could be exactly the micromanaging prick so many fans say he is. But generally I am pretty sure most fans are just talking out of their asses, and it makes zero sense to me that a defensive coach would try to run the offense. A new DC sure improved the defense this year. To my mind, that's evidence that he's letting his coordinators run their own side of the ball.
And that's one reason why the two coaches are in different universes and Saban is the best coach in college football history. Saban could see that even his defenses were not going to be able to hold everyone to 13 points and so he needed fast, productive offenses.
I think Doug Flutie is a good comparison for Taulia. Too small and fragile for the NFL, although elite in college. Maybe they will have similar professional career arcs (success in Canada, career backup in NFL)...
When you said “you might as well set the money on fire” it’s struck me because this is actually the pitch at least one SEC school is using to alumni about giving to NIL.
““Consider NIL giving as lighting money on fire” but will allow us to compete at the highest level” is a pitch that the fan base is buying into.
Absolutely correct. But one of the biggest things that our receivers had issues with was getting separation, and speed would help in this regard in addition to other wr skills. If you listen to the Big Ten telecasts, Matt Millen sounded like a broken record in stating, “the receivers are not getting separation. There is no one open”
Schiano flat out pretty much admitted to meddling in the offense. When we run the ball 50 times vs Temple, it was Schiano meddling in the offense. When we had nonsensical playcalling after jumping out to a 13-0 lead against Nebraska, as if the offense went into a shell, it was Schiano meddling in the offense. When he gets up on an opponent, he doesn’t want to take any undue risks. He has stated this openly. If he can win games 3-2, he is happy to do so.
I think we agree that speed would help in getting separation, but that it's not the only thing. That's why I questioned your "speed kills" remark.
I don't mind winning games 3-2. I do mind losing them 3-2. If we're going to lose, I'd rather we lost 35-28 than 3-2 (with the 28 not coming just during garbage time.) At least watching offense is fun. I may be wrong, but I think many fans feel this way. Nor do I think this is confined to football; in most sports, fans like offense.
I don't have any problem with a head coach "meddling" in the offense. The head coach is the head coach after all. My problem is that Schiano's intervention seems counterproductive. That's why he needs to give the OC considerable power.
And how is that winning games 3-2 strategy, working out?
Unless HC Schiano is ready to completely change the offensive philosophy that his offense will run, it won't matter who the OC is.
And the thing nobody wants to admit?
The offensive philosophy change isn't happening in 1 year.
It's likely going to take 2-3 years until the offense is turned around (new system, new plays, likely new players and different skill sets?).
So now it's potentially year 5 or 6until a competitive offense?
That's if he even moves down the path a completely different offensive approach.
Unless HC Schiano is ready to completely change the offensive philosophy that his offense will run, it won't matter who the OC is.
And the thing nobody wants to admit?
The offensive philosophy change isn't happening in 1 year.
It's likely going to take 2-3 years until the offense is turned around (new system, new plays, likely new players and different skill sets?).
So now it's potentially year 5 or 6until a competitive offense?
That's if he even moves down the path a completely different offensive approach.
it is a false premise to say that Wimsatt makes bad reads because he does not effectively study film. Just because Nova had to learn how to study film doesn’t mean that Wimsatt has to do the same.
Furthermore, it is not true that Wimsatt continuously made the wrong reads. Wimsatt made the correct read on the majority of his throws. Did Wimsatt have bad reads, yes. But bigger issues were the lack of effective pass protection, and the lack of good WR play, and instances where he made the right read but demonstrated poor accuracy, likely due to bad mechanics. It also would have helped if Rutgers had an effective running game, to help him out.
It’s not a coincidence that Wimsatt had his best game, when talent levels were similar, and Rutgers running game was effective, when we faced MSU. In that game he completed 20 of 36 passes for 236 yards and Manangai had 164 yards rushing in that game.
In the rest of Wimsatt’s games, Rutgers was completely outclassed, the running game was nonexistent, the pass rush was relentless, and the receivers were not getting separation. These games were Michigan, Penn State, Minnesota, and Maryland. No amount of effective film study by Wimsatt would have made Rutgers competitive against these teams.
And it’s not like Schiano is going to come out and say at the end of the season, “the kids lack talent”, even though it is painfully obvious, because that would hurt a lot of feelings. So he says, “We didn’t execute”. But the #1 reason we didn’t execute is due to the lack of talent, not because the proper play wasn’t called.
NIL addresses the #1 issue, affecting Rutgers competitiveness, because it will allow us to land playmakers who can make plays. This is what is sorely needed. Long ago, some stated, “It isn’t the alignment, it’s the alignees.” That couldn’t be more true in our case”. We need kids who can block and we need kids who can catch the ball.
USC addressed their talent issues via NIL. They gave millions to Caleb Williams and got a good quarterback. They gave millions to Jordan Addison and got a good WR. They recently gave a lot of money to a UFlorida
Offensive Tackle, and they now have a good tackle.
For our situation, we should raise funds to land WR1 for offense, because he would offer the most bang for the buck for this offense. Then we could look at other positions, if there is support.
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GS is a known micromanager who is unlikely to change, which is likely why it is taking so long to fill the OC position. However, He’s only involved with the offense because it’s been ineffective.
Once the offense lands more talent, and is effective, GS won’t need to “intervene”.
The fact that the coaches haven't seemed to notice that there is a problem with Wimsatt's mechanics is concerning for his future development. The first thing Friedgen did with Nova was fix the flaws in his mechanics. I hope it doesn't take until Wimsatt's senior year for someone to turn him into a B1G QB.
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Our biggest issue isn’t so much the style of offense, but more so, the lack of talent.
I’ve said elsewhere that we are likely to have a winning season by Year 6, because by then, the talent in the last two classes will have adequately developed.
Lincoln Riley installed a new offense at USC which was productive, because their boosters bought talent that could be effective in the new offense, using NIL. If people want quicker results, we’ll have to do the same. Otherwise, we’ll have to live with the growing pains that occur as a result of this transition.
Lincoln Riley is one of the best HC/OC/QB coaches working. He's in a different universe from the people coaching offense at RU. Talent is never the issue at USC. They always have players. To attribute his quick success to NIL is reductive. What USC needed was a real coach. They won 10 games because they hired one.
Why didn't either of the 2 previous OCs diagnose it?
Because Wimsatt had a very small sample size of throws and the accuracy issues did not reveal themselves. Wimsatt only became the full time starter once Nunz became the OC.
Saying USC Solely needed a real coach is reductive. USC went from 4 wins in ‘21 to 11 wins in ‘22 because they got Better coaching AND Better talent via NIL. QB Caleb Williams won the Heisman with 4,075 yards passing, and a 167.9 passer rating. His top target was WR Jordan Addison who pulled down 59 catches. Both received significant NIL.
If talent wasn’t an issue at USC, Riley would have gone with the existing players. But Riley knew better. The 2021 quarterback, Kedon Slovis, threw for 2,153 yards, almost half the output.
USC used NIL to boost its fortunes. Rutgers should do the same. But it will need boosters to step up to the plate.
USC used NIL to its advantage and went from 4 wins in ‘21 to 11 wins in ‘22. The assumption is that GS and the OC will have the expertise to determine the players needed to quickly boost Rutgers fortunes. We will have to be strategic in how we use NIL.
If we could add players that could take us from 4 wins to 6 wins, that would be good enough. A Leonte Carroo type WR and a productive tight end would do wonders for our offense.
RU is not USC. Never will be. Here is what happens when you assume.
RU doesn’t have to be USC to land good players from the portal. With NIL support, we’d improve our chances of landing an impact transfer, like Kenneth Walker who went to MSU.
But we have Samuel Brown. Kenneth Walker III was a lucky find. What did that do for Sparty in 2022? The premise of this thread is 100 percent off base.
Kedon Slovis threw for 3500+ yds his freshman season at USC with a 167.6 passer rating. He was 1 game short of a full season, he replaced the named starter IIRC.
Every year at USC after that he's been hurt, hasn't played a full season and hasn't been the same really. He's still a solid qb though.
Caleb Williams is a better qb no question and a definite upgrade but USC had plenty of talent regardless. USC recruit rankings were 10, 6, 3, 18, 71, 8 from 2016-2021 and the one down year was related to Helton's job status.
Riley did upgrade some talent at some positions but without his coaching it wouldn't matter. They had plenty of talent beforehand to win the PAC but they didn't.
Baker Mayfield was identified by KK at TT but wasn't highly recruited I think he had like 3 offers with WSU being the best. He walked on at TT and did well there but then transferred to OU (TT had Mahomes) and Riley continued his development with his system and turned him into a Heisman winner. That's coaching and system, not just raw talent like Caleb Williams. Even raw talent like Williams needs the coaching and right system fit otherwise it can become wasted raw talent.
Look at Charlie Jones at Iowa compared to Purdue. He flourished at Purdue but was wasting away in Iowa. Coaching and system matter. I more often will see coaching help talent outperform or perform to its expected level but I less often see talent just pick up the slack for poor coaching and perform to its level. Look at LSU, Joe Brady and Dave Aranda led them to a NC. They leave and it falls apart under Orgeron because he couldn't replace them well enough. Do you think LSU suddenly became devoid of talent or was it that the coordinators did a good job of utilizing the talent they had.
You need more than Sam Brown, because Sam Brown only played half the season before injury. In this league we need depth due to injury risk.Kenneth Walker was a one year rental that served his purpose.
Using NIL to land a one year impact transfer WR and or TE would be worth it.
We’ll either get the talent, or make do with what we have and likely not win as much.
Riley used NIL to land his Heisman QB and soon to be NFL draft pick WR to materially upgrade the performance of USCs offense. That is an undeniable fact.
After landing it’s OC, who will bring his system, Rutgers can similarly use NIL to land transfers good enough to get to 6 wins. That’s all we’re trying to do here.
Why does everyone keep responding to AL as if he was a logical poster? According to him we are always, truly always, on the cusp of greatness. Just see the endless list of reasons why we haven't broken through....it takes a special kind of person to blind oneself like this.
