OT: 2023 NY Giants Off Season Thread
- Thread starter Tango Two
- Start date
- Status
Do you think Giants go WR in the draft and who could be available as a #1 with the 25th pick?
Do they go OL?
The more I think about it- Giants have almost forced their hand with Jones once they didn't extend him last year. Great they made the playoffs but it almost worked to their worst possible outcome. The finished high enough in the standings that they are not in position to draft a "top" QB. And Jones was a big part of that winning, so now they will have to pay a premium. They also can't just cut him and try to fill in this year and sort of give up on it.
And to try to sign one of the bigger names like Carr- it will cost even more and if you still do not have weapons, he won't do much better.
And to Franchise Jones- that just cuts your balls off if you want to improve as there is no cap space left.
So, they are left with signing him long term and spreading out the cap in order to improve other areas.
Do they go OL?
The more I think about it- Giants have almost forced their hand with Jones once they didn't extend him last year. Great they made the playoffs but it almost worked to their worst possible outcome. The finished high enough in the standings that they are not in position to draft a "top" QB. And Jones was a big part of that winning, so now they will have to pay a premium. They also can't just cut him and try to fill in this year and sort of give up on it.
And to try to sign one of the bigger names like Carr- it will cost even more and if you still do not have weapons, he won't do much better.
And to Franchise Jones- that just cuts your balls off if you want to improve as there is no cap space left.
So, they are left with signing him long term and spreading out the cap in order to improve other areas.
You can get some excellent IOL, especially OC, on the 2nd day. WR, LB or one of the top TEs on day 1. And is there really no cap space left if they franchise Jones?
From my point of view, the Giants made the right call not exercising Jones's option. He hadn't shown himself yet to be a good QB, but he had shown promise and had an awful supporting cast (particularly OLine) and revolving door of coaches. So give him a year to prove himself, and the worst outcome would then be that he proves himself to be a good or even better QB, which becomes one of those "good" type problems, leaving only the difficulty of signing him, for which they would have options. They made the right decision, particularly since hindsight wasn't available back then. So far this management team has made a lot of good decisions.
Hard to blame the Giants for their decision last year- but boy, it bit them hard in the ass. It's funny, I remember before the season some of the FANs radio guys were saying that best case would be for DJ and Barkley to perform well in the first half but the Giants just suck in general where they could get some value for both of them in a trade and still be bad enough to get a top 10 draft pick...lol
It really only bit them hard in the ass if you think that Jones is a top QB and the Giants are now going to have to pay. But even then they would have had to pay at some point. If, instead, you think that Jones is only going to be an average or slightly above average QB, then the Giants have the option of dropping him and going a different direction. It's by no means a dire situation for them. The Giants are here because of a well-calculated decision. As is always the case, they now have another decision to make.
I'd recommend not listening to the FAN. It's just a bunch of droning on. Haven't listened in years.
I'd recommend not listening to the FAN. It's just a bunch of droning on. Haven't listened in years.
What happened is not so much that Jones proved to be a top QB but he manned up and proved that he was very good for this system and they can win with him.
To drop him and going a different direction is an option but...then, you are going to pay a FA just as much and you have no idea if they can handle the Giants and if they would be any better. Trade, well then you are not only dropping Jones but you are giving up draft capital. Draft- not at #25
No Jones, no playoffs next year, especially if it's a rookie or a retread giving the rookie time to develop. How much do you think Carr is going to want? Add a top WR, help at LB and IOL and they could definitely make some noise. We supposed to wait another 6 years for a playoff game?
This is why I started with that Giants do have to sign Jones now. And while you can't blame them for not extending him prior to the season, it did bite them in the ass in both a good and bad way. Good, that he most likley could lead this team if he gets a supporting cast, to a championship and bad, if only we all could see the future- it would have cost so much less with very little guaranteed last year. But going retread, rookie etc...is a huge no go after the success of last year. They NEED to make the playoffs again.
So he didn't prove he was very good in this system? With one of the shittiest WR corps in the NFL (especially with the injuries)?
I don't think missing out on Jones' 5th year option is as devastating as some people are making in out to be. Jones' 5th year option was ~$22.4 M for 2023 and after that they would have had to extend him on a much higher contract (assuming they would have extended him based on performance). If they non-exclusive Franchise him - it will be for ~$32M. If/when they re-sign him, they will likely back-load the deal to retain cap space this year for other moves - probably less than a $22M cap hit this coming year.
"Starting over" isn't nearly as dire you make it seem.
Eagles won the Super Bowl in 2017 with Wentz and Foles. Then they supposed to be in "cap hell" aftwards.
Drafted Hurts in the 2nd round in 2020.
Got rid of both Wentz and Foles.
And just returned to the Super Bowl in 2023.
I'd give HC Daboll and GM Scheon more credit than wait another 6 years. At least for now.
No- not miss understand. Giants are at a major cross road here. And let me put this out there- this year, and with this staff, I think Jones can be a franchise QB. But let's say they picked up his option on the 5th year- that is at minimum a 10 mil difference in cap this year. If he performs the same or better again and we have that extra capital to get the extra talent he needs and we get to the playoffs- and further then we did this year- then w know he is our guy for the next 5 and you can max his ass out. The key to all of this, the franchise is no longer a project, the franchise just needs a few pieces.
Now- if they dont come up with a contract and "tag" him rather than franchise him...it is again a gamble, kind of doubling down on a loss. We have next year, but he gets even better- now what happens?
IMO $10m is not major. They have options. They can sign Jones to a 4-5 year deal and backload to level back to that $22m cap hit range this year. They are $47m under the cap and potentially up to $20m more with maneuvering by cutting Golladay and renegotiating or cutting Williams etc. If Jones is Franchised, they will still be able to maneuver. If he is franchised and performs even better, they pay him more....when you find a good QB that fits, you pay him.
You sign him and the hit is not bad and you create room to maneuver. The franchise is trickier but at that point- either say you believe in him or not. Still cut Galloday and see if you can work something out with Williams. He was a big part of the success this year. Team wise- I get it with Williams but on the player side- this is what sucks with the NFL. They sign you and tell you to perform, you do and even exceed and it means nothing to tge team. The have to look at tge number before the player.
Jones was ranked 15th in NFL for yards (Mahomes @ #1 had 2000 more yards)
He had 15 TDs passing and 7 rushing
I think 45m is top five money
Jones made great progress but 45m is steep for veteran, upper mid-range QB.
Daboll might be able to squeeze as much out of another QB
Hopefully the 45m is just a bargaining lever and the Jones team expects less
Jones had a slightly better completion rate than Mahomes (67.2% v 67.1%). Mahomes sizeable passing yardage advantage was due to way more passing attempts. Jones needs receivers, having more quality pass catchers and those able to gain more yards after the catch will boost Jones' passing yards via more attempts, as Big Blue will work more passing schemes into their playbook. With that, Jones deserves the big $$$.Jones was ranked 15th in NFL for yards (Mahomes @ #1 had 2000 more yards)
He had 15 TDs passing and 7 rushing
I think 45m is top five money
Jones made great progress but 45m is steep for veteran, upper mid-range QB.
Daboll might be able to squeeze as much out of another QB
Hopefully the 45m is just a bargaining lever and the Jones team expects less
No one knows for sure that he wants $45M a year. That is what some reporters say. This happens all the time during contract negotiations. I like Jones a lot but know he has limitations. Staying healthy, lack of TD's and reading the defense. These should improve with better supporting cast. Over the next few years the salary cap is expected go up significantly. $45M a year may not even be top 10 in the league anymore. Some reports say he didn't even begin negotiating yet so no idea were that $45M came from. Carton reported that number was fake news. Im hoping it works out and for less tbh I dont think he is worth $45M a year. Hopefully they get something done and not have to use the tag on him.
that number is almost 100% being leaked by his new agents. Testing the waters and seeing not only if the Giants flinch but do any other teams bite...
45m a year is what Mahomes makes (and after winning a Super Bowl and being NFL MVP)
"During a recent appearance on “NFL Live,” ESPN’s senior NFL reporter, Jeremy Fowler, was asked what the Giants quarterback is said to be commanding as free agency looms, noting how some NFL teams believe the $45 million figure is “real.”
“I believe it’s real,” Fowler said. “After making calls the last 24 hours, talking to teams, I do believe it’s real, I know some teams believe it’s real.”
“Forty five million dollars? You’re out of your mind,” Boomer said. “You gotta understand who you are. Fifteen touchdowns and five interceptions is not getting you $45 million a year. It’s just not…his worth is somewhere between $27 and $32 million a year.”
Giants news, 2/25: Is $45M a real number for Daniel Jones?
New York Giants news for Saturdaywww.bigblueview.com
45 might be an opening bid. And when has Boomer been objective about the Giants?
I expect 45m is an example of "The Art of the Deal"
Boomer is only stating the obvious
Jones hadn't even made Pro Bowl alternate never mind All Pro 2nd team.
The Giants haven't even won their league
No way DJ should get Mahomes money.
Personally I dont care what he makes aside from cap situation .
High priced QBs really ding a roster
The problem is that $45m isn't just Mahomes money.
It's Kyler Murray money.
$40m is Dak money.
It's very easy to see Jones and his people looking around at other QBs and saying "I should be paid like them going forward" regardless of the $$ amount.
Yes that could make it easier for Jones to ask for 40- 45m because those guys aren't worth it either despite each making ROTY and Pro Bowl 2x (and Dak being NFL man of the year).
No law against overpaying.
Think Belichick would give Jones 45m?
Didn’t Brady pretty much lead WB’s in pay for many of his years?
Maholms does deserve to get top $$$ the other guys, not so much.
I don't really follow contracts too much because between salary, signing bonuses and cap magic it can be hard to Follow.
Brady made 39.4m in 2021
Kyler Murray's cap hit was 12.7m in 2022 but goes to 52m in 2024
I don't know how all that happens but Cards will be taking risks.
Some good coaches have trouble keeping track of TOs and clock management - it hurts them at times
Some good teams are bad at business, drafts etc and it holds them back.
"Despite what I said about the raise being low, the fact is I would not have projected Murray to get any raise over Mahomes a few months ago. Even the Rodgers contract I think would have been meaningless. While I like Murray and have at times said he should at least have been in MVP discussions during the year, the fact is his seasons have seemingly trailed off after the first month or two of the season...
To me Murray right now is not a sure thing. Dead money on QB’s has skyrocketed in recent years as teams have committed million of guaranteed dollars with the assumption that he will just get better but often it doesn’t happen. The Cardinals decision to double down on the coach, GM, and QB in the same offseason for so many years is quite risky in my mind, but I guess once you sign the first two you may as well do the QB at the same "
Thoughts on Kyler Murray's $230.5 Million Contract Extension | Over the Cap
Thoughts on Kyler Murray's $230.5 Million Contract Extension | Over the Cap
overthecap.com
I think you have it backwards.
NFL does have something - it's the Franchise Tag.
The NBA has no protections.
You can offer more money (a better Max deal) than other teams but there is no guarantee the player stays at all.
What protection are you thinking of?
Isn't the whole issue that the Giants don't want to pay more for Jones and are trying to get a potentially under-market deal?
No- I had my thoughts correct. NBA team can blow past the cap with offering max deals. Doesn’t mean the player stays but they can do it. The FT may allow an NFL team to keep a player but it also is a full hit on cap.
Now, if you could FT a player you drafted and it allowed to to go over cap, that would be something different
Got it.
Yes NBA teams can go over the cap to retain their own players.
It's a different situation though because every NBA contract is fully guaranteed.
I guess since the FT is also fully guaranteed it would be similar. Wonder if the NFL players ever fully move towards fully guaranteed contracts. A couple (Cousins, Watson, FT players) dabble in it.
I've heard some people say just make QBs a non-cap position. Because it is so overly weighted on cap impact against every other position.
No idea how to make it better. The current system sucks though. You have players getting cut that had a previously good year only because o their cap hit. And where it hurts a lot of players, are not even the bigger contracts- you can have a 3rd year player who has his role and gets a good number of snaps each year but is coming up on year 4. The year that they may actually get out of the minimum contract as well as qualify for full pension benefits. And that is the guy getting cut to save a few hundred grand. Teams figure just bring in a first year guy to replace him.
It comes down to how much is guaranteed. What Jones wants (or is rumored to want) does not mean he will land on that exact number. But in reality, what really matters most is the guarantee number. Lets say the Giants and Jones agree on $180m contract with $90m guaranteed over 5 years. $18m would be spread out every year for 5 years....the rest woukd not be guaranteed and could be distributed differently.
Year 1 - $22 m cap hit ($72m dead cap)
Year 2 - $28 m cap hit ($54m dead cap)
Year 3 - $40 m cap hit ($36m dead cap)
Year 4 - $45 m cap hit ($18m dead cap)
Year 5 - $45 m cap hit
Stud QB contracts are quickly approaching $50m plus per season and may reach the $60m mark by Jones contract year 5. Also, the cap rises every year.
If Jones is very good or even approaches top tier QB type, they can extend his contract in year 3 or 4 to spread things out further and give him another guarantee bonus.
Giants would also be well served to draft a QB next year in case Jones sucks it up, is injured or mediocre. This way they will be positioned to have a QB on a rookie deal to step in. In this case they would be able to cut him loose after year 3 (more likely after Year 4) and take a dead cap hit.
I get all that. I don't see Jones signing a deal like that but maybe I'm wrong. We'll see
- Status
Similar threads
