OT: Copa America 2016

[RUevolution36]

The problem is that soccer isn't popular enough with enough kids. The best athletes play football or basketball. When LeBron James, Michael Westbrook, Marshawn Lynch, Calvin Johnson, etc. start playing soccer, we will start winning. In all honesty, right now in the United States, soccer is a sport for middle class kids who can't play football or basketball. Training our mid-tier athletes to death still won't be enough.

that's sort of incorrect. the athletic physical freaks play football or basketball. if you're under 6'1, your chances of making the NBA are slim. If you can't grow to 230-300lbs, or be tall and really fast, football is going to be tough as well.

soccer is perfect for great athletes who don't have the size that basketball and football require.

 

[RU23]

Topdeck: we have more than enough kids interested in soccer.

Chilehas a population of 18mil. New York City alone has 8mil.

But while people in Chile dream of being soccer players to escape poverty, Americans dream of a piece of the American Pie (nice house, cute family, secure/meaningful career).

Meh I don't buy that theory. Plenty of American kids dream of being pro athletes, and plenty want to be pro soccer players. Belgium and the Netherlands have similar standards of living to us, are even tinier in population and yet the Netherlands has finished top 3 at each of the last two World Cups while Belgium has easily a top 5 team in terms of talent right now.

 

[miketd1]

RU23: they can centralize their resources. Here, what if our four best players are split between NJ, TX, FL, & CA? That's where the lifestyle choice is forced upon a child & parents. Most will say forget it, especially given the financial requirements vs. the odds. Which is understandable.

 

[topdecktiger]

Topdeck: we have more than enough kids interested in soccer.

Chilehas a population of 18mil. New York City alone has 8mil.

But while people in Chile dream of being soccer players to escape poverty, Americans dream of a piece of the American Pie (nice house, cute family, secure/meaningful career).

No, we don't. The fact is, soccer just isn't that popular in the U.S., and all our best athletes play other sports. We have plenty of athletes who use sports to escape poverty. The problem is all those good athletes choose football or basketball, or even baseball.

that's sort of incorrect. the athletic physical freaks play football or basketball. if you're under 6'1, your chances of making the NBA are slim. If you can't grow to 230-300lbs, or be tall and really fast, football is going to be tough as well.

soccer is perfect for great athletes who don't have the size that basketball and football require.

No, it's not incorrect. What you aren't factoring in is that this trickles down to the grass roots level. Even our great athletes who aren't sized for football or basketball don't play soccer. They try to make it in one of those other sports. In high school and college, they are still standout football/basketball players, and that's what they play their whole lives. The kids who seriously play soccer all their lives are the ones who aren't good enough at the other sports.

For example, let's take Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. If those guys were Americans, they would have grown up playing quarterback/receiver or point guard their whole lives. They may not have made it as professional athletes, but they would have been top athletes in their hometowns, and would have been stars on their local football or basketball teams.

 

[miketd1]

Topdeck: we will have to disagree. If the US can field an ice hockey team that can compete internationally with the best, from a numbers standpoint, we should be able to do the same in soccer. Keep in mind there are many more barriers to entry for an American ice hockey hopeful...

It's something other than participation numbers.

 

[RUevolution36]

No, we don't. The fact is, soccer just isn't that popular in the U.S., and all our best athletes play other sports. We have plenty of athletes who use sports to escape poverty. The problem is all those good athletes choose football or basketball, or even baseball.



No, it's not incorrect. What you aren't factoring in is that this trickles down to the grass roots level. Even our great athletes who aren't sized for football or basketball don't play soccer. They try to make it in one of those other sports. In high school and college, they are still standout football/basketball players, and that's what they play their whole lives. The kids who seriously play soccer all their lives are the ones who aren't good enough at the other sports.

For example, let's take Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. If those guys were Americans, they would have grown up playing quarterback/receiver or point guard their whole lives. They may not have made it as professional athletes, but they would have been top athletes in their hometowns, and would have been stars on their local football or basketball teams.

Just an honest question topdeck...where did you grow up?

In places like central jersey (Mercer county), top athletes play soccer and not football.

 

[CERU00]

No, we don't. The fact is, soccer just isn't that popular in the U.S., and all our best athletes play other sports. We have plenty of athletes who use sports to escape poverty. The problem is all those good athletes choose football or basketball, or even baseball.



No, it's not incorrect. What you aren't factoring in is that this trickles down to the grass roots level. Even our great athletes who aren't sized for football or basketball don't play soccer. They try to make it in one of those other sports. In high school and college, they are still standout football/basketball players, and that's what they play their whole lives. The kids who seriously play soccer all their lives are the ones who aren't good enough at the other sports.

For example, let's take Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. If those guys were Americans, they would have grown up playing quarterback/receiver or point guard their whole lives. They may not have made it as professional athletes, but they would have been top athletes in their hometowns, and would have been stars on their local football or basketball teams.

Wrong! Messi is 5'7". In the US he would have been told he is too short for professional sports.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Topdeck: we will have to disagree. If the US can field an ice hockey team that can compete internationally with the best, from a numbers standpoint, we should be able to do the same in soccer. Keep in mind there are many more barriers to entry for an American ice hockey hopeful...

It's something other than participation numbers.

I agree with you that I think we have more than enough people here who find soccer popular to compete with the top of the world but we're not discovering them.

That article someone posted and I referred to above was quite eye opening for me. I don't know that without dramatic changes that it will ever come from the current pool of players we keep fishing in. From what I read here, it doesn't seem like the structured environments players from higher socioeconomic backgrounds get developed in will ever yield world class players.

It seems like those"playground soccer" types are in the urban minority areas and they are the ones in the future who could have the skill to develop into world class players. But it doesn't seem like much or enough is done to harness all those undiscovered diamonds in the rough. This may be a dumb question but are there any AAU type soccer setups around the country? Is anything like that feasible or does it already exist?

We have a huge latin american population in this country and for many of them "their sport" is soccer and the environment they grow up in would likely foster that "playground soccer" development. So to me for us to take a step up on the world stage, finding more players from that pool and harnessing it is the way forward. Otherwise if not that then I agree with your prior post then when playing these top teams stylistically try and be a "poor man's" Italy with our skill level likely plateauing about here.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Early on looks like a rematch with Colombia for the 3rd place game. Also rematch between Argentina Chile.

 

[miketd1]

Chile is another monster. Love their attacking style tho

 

[rutgersguy1]

They seem very opportunistic. Bad header by Colombia and put away by Chile for easy goal. Rebound off the post Chilean player right there to put away the rebound into an open net. Were quite opportunistic in that drubbing of Mexico too.

 

[topdecktiger]

Topdeck: we will have to disagree. If the US can field an ice hockey team that can compete internationally with the best, from a numbers standpoint, we should be able to do the same in soccer. Keep in mind there are many more barriers to entry for an American ice hockey hopeful...

It's something other than participation numbers.

Numbers aren't the issue. It's participation. In the U.S., the "Big 4" sports have always been football, basketball, baseball, and hockey. There has been little motivation, until recently, for the majority of athletes in the U.S. to play soccer. Even hockey, which has always been a distant 4th in the U.S., has historically been more popular than soccer. You had more of a pool of athletes to choose from in hockey than soccer. As an example, then NHL has been around in the U.S. since the 20s. MLS didn't start until the 90s.

Just an honest question topdeck...where did you grow up?

In places like central jersey (Mercer county), top athletes play soccer and not football.

I live in South Carolina. You can cherrypick certain areas, but nationwide, the best athletes play football or basketball. (I notice you didn't list basketball in your post.) Regardless, the type of soccer participation you are describing is just recent. In Europe and South America, that type of participation has been going on for decades. To get our best athletes into soccer, the sport simply has to become more popular and has to become as commonplace as backyard hoops. Right now, it isn't close to that point.

Wrong! Messi is 5'7". In the US he would have been told he is too short for professional sports.

Classic case of someone not accurately reading a post. I never said Messi would play professional sports in the U.S. Here is what I actually said:

For example, let's take Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. If those guys were Americans, they would have grown up playing quarterback/receiver or point guard their whole lives. They may not have made it as professional athletes, but they would have been top athletes in their hometowns, and would have been stars on their local football or basketball teams.

How you can misunderstand what I said is beyond belief.

 

[CERU00]

Numbers aren't the issue. It's participation. In the U.S., the "Big 4" sports have always been football, basketball, baseball, and hockey. There has been little motivation, until recently, for the majority of athletes in the U.S. to play soccer. Even hockey, which has always been a distant 4th in the U.S., has historically been more popular than soccer. You had more of a pool of athletes to choose from in hockey than soccer. As an example, then NHL has been around in the U.S. since the 20s. MLS didn't start until the 90s.



I live in South Carolina. You can cherrypick certain areas, but nationwide, the best athletes play football or basketball. (I notice you didn't list basketball in your post.) Regardless, the type of soccer participation you are describing is just recent. In Europe and South America, that type of participation has been going on for decades. To get our best athletes into soccer, the sport simply has to become more popular and has to become as commonplace as backyard hoops. Right now, it isn't close to that point.



Classic case of someone not accurately reading a post. I never said Messi would play professional sports in the U.S. Here is what I actually said:


How you can misunderstand what I said is beyond belief.

Easy. My bad for seeing the second part of that comment. But I'll go further and say Messi wouldn't have been a star on the local level either. He would've been looked over for both sports. Size has been overvalued in the US.

 

[miketd1]

Numbers aren't the issue. It's participation... You had more of a pool of athletes to choose from in hockey than soccer.

Show your work.

 

[wcfan10]

I've said it before and I'll repeat it. You do not need to to be a great athlete to be a great soccer player.
Messi has been the best soccer player of this decade, and I believe of all-time.
He is not a great athlete, in fact, he is quite average. He is small in stature about 5'6" or so, light frame(although he bulked up significantly with weights), and definitely not fast. Yet he is the best soccer player in the world.

Another similar example is Diego Maradona.

 

[RU23]

I've said it before and I'll repeat it. You do not need to to be a great athlete to be a great soccer player.
Messi has been the best soccer player of this decade, and I believe of all-time.
He is not a great athlete, in fact, he is quite average. He is small in stature about 5'6" or so, light frame(although he bulked up significantly with weights), and definitely not fast. Yet he is the best soccer player in the world.

Another similar example is Diego Maradona.

I hate to be so blunt, but you very clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Messi is fast as hell with unreal balance, acceleration, change of direction, etc.

 

[RUevolution36]

I've said it before and I'll repeat it. You do not need to to be a great athlete to be a great soccer player.
Messi has been the best soccer player of this decade, and I believe of all-time.
He is not a great athlete, in fact, he is quite average. He is small in stature about 5'6" or so, light frame(although he bulked up significantly with weights), and definitely not fast. Yet he is the best soccer player in the world.

Another similar example is Diego Maradona.

deandre yedlin has been reported to run a 4.2 40 yard dash. he needed every single bit of that speed to barely beat messi to that loose ball the other night. to say that messi isn't fast is a lie.

 

[RUevolution36]

Numbers aren't the issue. It's participation. In the U.S., the "Big 4" sports have always been football, basketball, baseball, and hockey. There has been little motivation, until recently, for the majority of athletes in the U.S. to play soccer. Even hockey, which has always been a distant 4th in the U.S., has historically been more popular than soccer. You had more of a pool of athletes to choose from in hockey than soccer. As an example, then NHL has been around in the U.S. since the 20s. MLS didn't start until the 90s.



I live in South Carolina. You can cherrypick certain areas, but nationwide, the best athletes play football or basketball. (I notice you didn't list basketball in your post.) Regardless, the type of soccer participation you are describing is just recent. In Europe and South America, that type of participation has been going on for decades. To get our best athletes into soccer, the sport simply has to become more popular and has to become as commonplace as backyard hoops. Right now, it isn't close to that point.



Classic case of someone not accurately reading a post. I never said Messi would play professional sports in the U.S. Here is what I actually said:


How you can misunderstand what I said is beyond belief.

i used football as one example. same can be said for basketball. as mentioned earlier, americans place too much emphasis on height/weight combos. there are a lot of great athletes out there without the prototypical bball or football measurables. 6'1 Cristiano Ronaldo has a vertical leap higher than the average NBA player. gareth bale and raheem sterling have hit speeds as fast as ted ginn (fastest mph during a game in 2015). deandre yedlin, who's short as hell, runs a 40 as fast as Chris Johnson. and all these guys do it while running an average of 7 miles per game, while the average nba player runs less than 2 miles, and the average WR or CB run only slightly more than a mile. to discount the level of "athletic ability" because a guy doesn't look like a freak of nature is showing your biases towards those two sports.

 

[rutger80]

I'd like to see the US divided into separate regions for soccer development purposes. Whether it's 6 or 8 or however many 'zones', all can be administered by US Soccer, with the same structure, coaching and development. Would make player development easier to monitor and things wouldn't be as spread out as they are now. Top players in each zone at each age would be identified for national team selection.

 

[wcfan10]

deandre yedlin has been reported to run a 4.2 40 yard dash. he needed every single bit of that speed to barely beat messi to that loose ball the other night. to say that messi isn't fast is a lie.

My friend.Messi isn't fast. Maybe you should verify Yedlin's actual speed before you make these outlandish comments... I didn't see the US-Arg game. I'm,\ focused on the Euro Cup.

 

[rutgersguy1]

I completely forgot about the 3rd place game last night. I know the score but how did we look in Round 2 vs. Colombia?

 

[RU23]

My friend.Messi isn't fast. Maybe you should verify Yedlin's actual speed before you make these outlandish comments... I didn't see the US-Arg game. I'm,\ focused on the Euro Cup.

Lol. Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Kbee3]

I completely forgot about the 3rd place game last night. I know the score but how did we look in Round 2 vs. Colombia?

Not bad. Both sides had their chances and both sides hit the post with the ball. Columbia just had one key success in the 31st minute. The USA squad looked much better with the guys that couldn't go vs. Argentina on the field vs. Columbia.
All in all 4th place ain't bad. We've still got a ways to go.

 

[wcfan10]

Lol. Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

I suggest you learn and do research before opening your mouth and talk crap.. Messi's speed is average at best,. is not fast and I highly doubt Yedlin runs 4.2..

 

[MadRU]

Bradley took a knock early and looked slow the rest of the match, should have been subbed out earlier. Nagbe should have been in there early, IMHO.

 

[theRU]

the problem with soccer in america, is that we have coaches who have no clue about teaching soccer. Have you been to rec soccer? I'm hearing parents complain about coaches not bringing soccer balls to practice.

Youth soccer also should not focus on games being played. They should teach skills instead. America is all about the emphasis on games which is wrong.

 

[theRU]

My friend.Messi isn't fast. Maybe you should verify Yedlin's actual speed before you make these outlandish comments... I didn't see the US-Arg game. I'm,\ focused on the Euro Cup.

Def not 4.2 kind of speed, but to say that he isn't fast is outrageous.

http://espn.go.com/espn/thelife/bodyshots/?guide=messi
http://the18.com/news/how-fast-messi

More importantly than topline speed is the agility, body and ball control at high speeds which he excels at.

 

[Caliknight]

Yedlin is very fast. Without the ball. Messi is very quick. With the ball.

 

[mcbabz]

Messi is the "fastest" player with the ball at his feet, what he's able to do with the precision of control while running at close to top speed is special

 

[bitnez]

There are plenty of training academies now in the US. You only need to develop 20-25 world class players. Any kid with talent now gets plucked at a young age. Recs leagues aren't the issue.

The fact remains that the best US athletes simply don't play the game. We are a star driven society. Give us one elite player who gets the big advertising deal with Nike etc and it will change everything. Take the top 3-5 WRs and 3-5 RBs in the NFL and imagine them growing up playing soccer rather than football. Look at OBJ -- he has generational talent. Its simply not cool enough yet to play soccer. Only when that happens will we break through

 

[theRU]

There are plenty of training academies now in the US. You only need to develop 20-25 world class players. Any kid with talent now gets plucked at a young age. Recs leagues aren't the issue.

The fact remains that the best US athletes simply don't play the game. We are a star driven society. Give us one elite player who gets the big advertising deal with Nike etc and it will change everything. Take the top 3-5 WRs and 3-5 RBs in the NFL and imagine them growing up playing soccer rather than football. Look at OBJ -- he has generational talent. Its simply not cool enough yet to play soccer. Only when that happens will we break through

we have a population of 300+ million. We have no shortage of athletes playing soccer. we have a shortage of people who can develop soccer stars. You can't convince me otherwise.

The training academies are primarily for ages 12 and up. Rec soccer needs to do its part for the kids younger than that and actually teach these kids skills with the ball. When you have an 8 or 9 year old they need to learn the game the right way. The fact that you have kids at ages 8 and 9 "playing" Games is a joke.

 

[RU23]

I suggest you learn and do research before opening your mouth and talk crap.. Messi's speed is average at best,. is not fast and I highly doubt Yedlin runs 4.2..

Lol. You do research. You're the one who clearly knows nothing. Here I'll give you some nice reading materials to get you started:

http://americansoccernow.com/articles/deandre-yedlin-s-rapid-rise-through-the-u-s-ranks

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/66/u...am-and-the-premier-leagues-us-charm-offensive

http://grantland.com/features/deand...nd-fame-transfer-to-european-club-mls-soccer/

Here's a hint - all those and many, many more arrticles say Yedlin ran a 4.2 40 in college. Which is absurd. Faster than any NFL player ever. Messi is not far off. Evidence: http://www.sounderatheart.com/2016/...eo-messi-the-closest-thing-to-a-usa-highlight

But that straight line speed is certainly not what makes him great. It's the acceleration. First 15 yards he's gone - no one better. And with the ball. Forget it. No one is close.

 

[miketd1]

Our guys are as athletic as any other squad. We are behind in fundamentals, advanced skills, and overall football IQ.

 

[RU23]

Our guys are as athletic as any other squad. We are behind in fundamentals, advanced skills, and overall football IQ.

Fundamentals is #1. Trapping a tough pass is something players around the world do with ease, yet our players can't seem to keep a difficult touch close to them if they're life depended on it.

 

[SirScarlet]

the problem with soccer in america, is that we have coaches who have no clue about teaching soccer. Have you been to rec soccer? I'm hearing parents complain about coaches not bringing soccer balls to practice.

Youth soccer also should not focus on games being played. They should teach skills instead. America is all about the emphasis on games which is wrong.

You are misinformed.

What you are describing is the old way of coaching US soccer. There has been a grassroots efforts for a while now to teach technical skills at a much earlier age. And it's working. It will take time. But rather than shoot your mouth off why don't you go and research what the basic F license requires training for.

And using Rec Soccer as a barometer is not accurate as travel soccer has become what rec soccer used to be... and the emphasis on touches in travel is significant

Trying to compare us to the top 5 teams in the world as a little unfair. But as we saw in both Colombia games our national program is not that far off. Are we behind yes... are we as far behind as some of the posters in this thread make it seem? Absolutely not.

 

[theRU]

You are misinformed.

What you are describing is the old way of coaching US soccer. There has been a grassroots efforts for a while now to teach technical skills at a much earlier age. And it's working. It will take time. But rather than shoot your mouth off why don't you go and research what the basic F license requires training for.

And using Rec Soccer as a barometer is not accurate as travel soccer has become what rec soccer used to be... and the emphasis on touches in travel is significant

Trying to compare us to the top 5 teams in the world as a little unfair. But as we saw in both Colombia games our national program is not that far off. Are we behind yes... are we as far behind as some of the posters in this thread make it seem? Absolutely not.

i dont think we're drastically behind either. i'm just saying overall coaching is lacking. I've been to european countries where their REC level soccer is of a much higher caliber because of the coaching. While our academies maybe taught as well as other academies, i think the overall general population is far behind. I believe in numbers and if we had a overall higher skill level teaching these kids we'd catch up quickly as the entire talent pool would take a massive step forward.

why do you consider my comments me shooting my mouth off? Thats really an unnecessary response

 

[RU848789]

Lol. You do research. You're the one who clearly knows nothing. Here I'll give you some nice reading materials to get you started:

http://americansoccernow.com/articles/deandre-yedlin-s-rapid-rise-through-the-u-s-ranks

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/66/u...am-and-the-premier-leagues-us-charm-offensive

http://grantland.com/features/deand...nd-fame-transfer-to-european-club-mls-soccer/

Here's a hint - all those and many, many more arrticles say Yedlin ran a 4.2 40 in college. Which is absurd. Faster than any NFL player ever. Messi is not far off. Evidence: http://www.sounderatheart.com/2016/...eo-messi-the-closest-thing-to-a-usa-highlight

But that straight line speed is certainly not what makes him great. It's the acceleration. First 15 yards he's gone - no one better. And with the ball. Forget it. No one is close.

I'm dumbfounded that there are actually people out there who would say Messi isn't a great athlete. He's a superb athlete, with good speed, incredible acceleration and agility and has the best foot-eye coordination probably ever, which allows him to dribble at top speed and in tight spaces and still finish or pass perfectly (the weighting of his passes is a thing of beauty to behold) to others.

 

[RU848789]

Not bad. Both sides had their chances and both sides hit the post with the ball. Columbia just had one key success in the 31st minute. The USA squad looked much better with the guys that couldn't go vs. Argentina on the field vs. Columbia.
All in all 4th place ain't bad. We've still got a ways to go.

I thought we looked quite good last night - huge improvement over the Argentina game, which simply was a team meltdown full of unforced errors. We passed well, defended well, possessed the ball pretty well and had at least a half dozen very good scoring chances that we just couldn't convert on, but we easily could've had 2-3 goals if that last pass or shot was just a little better (especially Dempsey's toe poke near the end). That was a very close match against a very good Colombia team - we acquitted ourselves pretty well in this tourney.

 

[mildone]

Ugh. Terrible yellow card. Hate seeing that.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Oh wow big loss there for Chile. I don't know if it was worthy of a 2nd yellow. The Fox guest ref thought it was harsh too. 10 men for Chile with more than 1/2 the game still left. Tough hill to climb against Argentina.