OT: Electric vehicles

[mildone]

I know you're poking, but there is a misconception about the ground that legacy auto has to make up and the hurdles on the horizon.

Audi e-Tron: 700 kg pack weight
95 kWh pack capacity
218 mi range

Those are embarrassing specs from an established brand. Most likely negative margins on every one produced, especially given the volume is so low. In summary, ICE ain't EV.

And, let's not forget about Chinese EVs. China tends excel at replication rather than innovation, but they do have access to localized supply chains and a cheaper labor force. I think we're going to see the Chinese brands do exactly what the Japanese did in the 90s.

True, I am mostly joking because I don’t have any dogs in the automotive competition fight. The thing you’re overlooking is that people will still buy the Audi e-Tron and pay a lot for it even with those specs. Audi and Porsche (and Mercedes, and others) all know what they are doing when it comes to marketing, supply chains and manufacturing. They have their target market and they’ll sell quite well into it.

There is no hurdle. They are building what they’ve determined they need to build. If the determine they need to to build something better spec-wise, they will. They’ve been at this game forever.

 

[mildone]

I feel like I have been hearing for ten years how Lucid will take on Tesla. They have been all talk, and when they finally come out will have full competition with mainstream auto makers. I don't see them as anything special and not sure if they make it long haul.

Nobody can say what will happen with Lucid with any confidence. Of course.

But we can all say that the major auto manufacturers who've been around forever are extremely likely to not only survive but thrive w/EVs. They aren't Lucid and they have way, way more experience building and selling cars than Tesla. They'll catch up quickly and if Tesla's lucky, and well run, then it'll survive which would be great.

 

[LBusDoor90]

If anybody in this thread wants to talk RUFB AND EVs today in person today, look for my black Model 3 in the front row of the green lot by the Bubble and visitor’s side.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[LBusDoor90]

View embedded media

This is what happens when you put in minimal effort to create EVs to earn tax credits, hoping hundreds of moving parts will return to dominance, so that all your 50-60 something upper management folks will maintain their retirement stock-based weslth.
You let the rabbit disappear out of sight while your promises of mass production get pushed back to 2022, then 2023, then 2024, then…..🤷🏼‍♂️
It matters not ONE BIT you’ve been making ICE cars for 100+ years.

 

[mildone]

🤣

Wish I had a dime for every time people said company X was untouchable. But… but… Tesla’s gonna be the first, right?

 

[lne001]

🤣

Wish I had a dime for every time people said company X was untouchable. But… but… Tesla’s gonna be the first, right?

Jim Beam has existed for 225 years. I suspect Tesla would be satisfied with that long a run.

Saying that Tesla has a 5-10 year technical advantage is far from claiming they are 'untouchable', which I suspect is your fabrication. Whatever.

 

[LBusDoor90]

🤣

Wish I had a dime for every time people said company X was untouchable. But… but… Tesla’s gonna be the first, right?

I hope you’re old enough to see you’ll regret arguing the supposed “masters” can/could catch up whenever they want. They won’t because the current people that run them don’t want to and therefore can’t.
See you in 20 years when I’m 70ish. 👍🏼

 

[mdk01]

I hope you’re old enough to see you’ll regret arguing the supposed “masters” can/could catch up whenever they want. They won’t because the current people that run them don’t want to and therefore can’t.
See you in 20 years when I’m 70ish. 👍🏼

Commodore anyone?

 

[mildone]

Jim Beam has existed for 225 years. I suspect Tesla would be satisfied with that long a run.

Saying that Tesla has a 5-10 year technical advantage is far from claiming they are 'untouchable', which I suspect is your fabrication. Whatever.

I'm not talking about "existing". I'm saying that Tesla had a head start with EVs but that the major auto makers will quickly catch up. Which seems to be what you're also saying.

The other two guys think Tesla is untouchable and any time anybody posts anything about any EV from anybody BUT Tesla, they react defensively and attack the other companies. My post is in response to them. Try to keep up.

Oh, and Jim Beam is crap. So to carry your given example forward, it seems you're insinuating that Tesla will be content to produce crap while all the luxury auto-makers out there will be producing 100 year old Macallan. That may be true, it's the future so who can say. But I suspect Tesla's shareholders won't be so easily satisfied.

 

[mildone]

Commodore anyone?

That might be a bit of an extreme example, but IBM and Intel are two more examples of supposedly untouchable, uncatchable companies who got caught and even passed. The business world is replete with such examples. Because people are so easily caught up in marketing hype.

But nope, Tesla is going to maintain it's lead forever and all the major automakers don't want to even try. Which couldn't possibly be a boat-load of Tesla-driven marketing hyperbole. 😃

Getting the timing of the sale of TSLA shares right, and then possibly the timing of a subsequent repurchase, may prove highly profitable at some point in the not too distant future.

 

[mildone]

I hope you’re old enough to see you’ll regret arguing the supposed “masters” can/could catch up whenever they want. They won’t because the current people that run them don’t want to and therefore can’t.
See you in 20 years when I’m 70ish. 👍🏼

What "masters"? That's your word, not mine.

I'm talking about companies, not individuals. And where are you getting the theory that the major auto manufacturers don't want to build and sell tons of EVs? I mean, it's true they probably don't GAF about EVs versus ICEs. But they do care about revenue and profits. So they have been, and will continue to, do whatever it takes to succeed in the business of building and selling cars. If that means EVs, then that's what they'll do.

And if the various boards and executives of these companies don't do that, then they'll be replaced with folks who do.

I am really curious where you get the idea that the large corporations are not interested in generating revenue and profits.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Didn't you tell me that it would just get done and pooh-pooh'ed my point and said that I was being too cautionary when I mentioned that getting the infrastructure built to support a huge growth in EV's was going to be painfully difficult? You mentioned Moore's Law and all that to try to make your point. You overestimate and overvalue your ability to put together a cohesive, logical point of view.

We know how to build an EV infrastructure.
We don't know how to build a shit ton of solid state batteries. Apples and oranges.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

True, I am mostly joking because I don’t have any dogs in the automotive competition fight. The thing you’re overlooking is that people will still buy the Audi e-Tron and pay a lot for it even with those specs. Audi and Porsche (and Mercedes, and others) all know what they are doing when it comes to marketing, supply chains and manufacturing. They have their target market and they’ll sell quite well into it.

There is no hurdle. They are building what they’ve determined they need to build. If the determine they need to to build something better spec-wise, they will. They’ve been at this game forever.

So plan A was to invest millions in R&D, build a grossly inefficient EV w inferior specs, have limited sales, and lose money on every one? What am I missing?

 

[mildone]

So plan A was to invest millions in R&D, build a grossly inefficient EV w inferior specs, have limited sales, and lose money on every one? What am I missing?

Volumes. 😉

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Volumes. 😉

... which is by far the most difficult part.
Good! Glad we're getting somewhere

 

[LBusDoor90]

I'm not talking about "existing". I'm saying that Tesla had a head start with EVs but that the major auto makers will quickly catch up. Which seems to be what you're also saying.

The other two guys think Tesla is untouchable and any time anybody posts anything about any EV from anybody BUT Tesla, they react defensively and attack the other companies. My post is in response to them. Try to keep up.

Oh, and Jim Beam is crap. So to carry your given example forward, it seems you're insinuating that Tesla will be content to produce crap while all the luxury auto-makers out there will be producing 100 year old Macallan. That may be true, it's the future so who can say. But I suspect Tesla's shareholders won't be so easily satisfied.

No. They won’t because their current management has no desire to do so.

 

[mildone]

... which is by far the most difficult part.
Good! Glad we're getting somewhere

I hoped you’d go there. Good stuff. LOL

 

[fsg2]

No. They won’t because their current management has no desire to do so.

Lol. 2015 wants its sweeping declaration back.

 

[LBusDoor90]

Lol. 2015 wants its sweeping declaration back.

You ICE mega fans are such a cute knee-slapping audience for each other. Reminds me of the way a certain side of the political spectrum accuses the other of being virtue signalers while it’s own base flies crosses and flags everywhere because they are CERTAIN they are the only true patriots and good people everywhere they go.
Once again, I’m out from this thread like I was the first. See you in 2040. Tell me about your ICE cars then. 👍🏼

 

[fsg2]

You ICE mega fans are such a cute knee-slapping audience for each other. Reminds me of the way a certain side of the political spectrum accuses the other of being virtue signalers while it’s own base flies crosses and flags everywhere because they are CERTAIN they are the only true patriots and good people everywhere they go.
Once again, I’m out from this thread like I was the first. See you in 2040. Tell me ab ICE cars then. 👍🏼

Another illiterate jackass who doesn't know the first thing about which he speaks.

Go slam your Model 3 door on your micro-boner and think of Elon!

 

[lne001]

I'm saying that Tesla had a head start with EVs but that the major auto makers will quickly catch up. Which seems to be what you're also saying.

Nowhere did I say the OEM's will 'quickly catch up'. You seem to play rather fast and loose with other people's words. Is that intentional?

The other two guys think Tesla is untouchable and any time anybody posts anything about any EV from anybody BUT Tesla, they react defensively and attack the other companies. My post is in response to them.

I'm sorry, but I don't seem to have neither the time nor inclination to follow this thread as assiduously as you. But since you do would you please show me the specific quotations from the 'other two guys' which support your conclusion that they believe Tesla is 'untouchable'. I'll be quite surprised should you be able to do so, but I've been surprised before.

Try to keep up.

Since I'm the one who has owned an electric vehicle for 14 months (a Tesla) I guarantee that I know far more than you regarding batteries, charging, driving characteristics and pretty much everything else in the realm of BEV's.

That may be true, it's the future so who can say. But I suspect Tesla's shareholders won't be so easily satisfied.

Can't speak to the future with as much certainty as you seem to, but I will assure you that I am more than pleased with the return on my purchase of thirty 2024 convertible bonds in 2019. 😛

 

[theRU]

Rivians look even better in person. I might have to get me one of those

 

[mildone]

Nowhere did I say the OEM's will 'quickly catch up'. You seem to play rather fast and loose with other people's words. Is that intentional?


I'm sorry, but I don't seem to have neither the time nor inclination to follow this thread as assiduously as you. But since you do would you please show me the specific quotations from the 'other two guys' which support your conclusion that they believe Tesla is 'untouchable'. I'll be quite surprised should you be able to do so, but I've been surprised before.



Since I'm the one who has owned an electric vehicle for 14 months (a Tesla) I guarantee that I know far more than you regarding batteries, charging, driving characteristics and pretty much everything else in the realm of BEV's.


Can't speak to the future with as much certainty as you seem to, but I will assure you that I am more than pleased with the return on my purchase of thirty 2024 convertible bonds in 2019. 😛

You owned a car so you’re an expert on car tech? Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

I‘m guessing you were being intentionally funny with that part.

Sorry, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to be your personal Cliff Notes for the thread.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[RUevolution36]

Tesla needs to address 'basic safety issues' before expanding semi-autonomous tech

Tesla calls some of its technologies "Full Self Driving" and "Autopilot," despite the fact that the vehicles are not actually capable of autonomously driving themselves.

www.autoblog.com

and the original article for those with a WSJ sub...

WSJ News Exclusive | Elon Musk’s Push to Expand Tesla’s Driver Assistance to Cities Rankles a Top Safety Authority

Tesla plans to expand access to its Full Self-Driving system and defends its technology. A safety official says more work is needed and calls the name irresponsible.

www.wsj.com

 

[mdk01]

Tesla needs to address 'basic safety issues' before expanding semi-autonomous tech

Tesla calls some of its technologies "Full Self Driving" and "Autopilot," despite the fact that the vehicles are not actually capable of autonomously driving themselves.

www.autoblog.com

and the original article for those with a WSJ sub...

WSJ News Exclusive | Elon Musk’s Push to Expand Tesla’s Driver Assistance to Cities Rankles a Top Safety Authority

Tesla plans to expand access to its Full Self-Driving system and defends its technology. A safety official says more work is needed and calls the name irresponsible.

www.wsj.com

And Elon basically put a "Kick me" sign on his butt over the weekend with his tweet about Biden. And it will be interesting to see how the Tesla stock reacts to being excluded from the current "environmental new deal" benefits that are a part of the mammoth bill in Congress because it's a non-union shop.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

And Elon basically put a "Kick me" sign on his butt over the weekend with his tweet about Biden. And it will be interesting to see how the Tesla stock reacts to being excluded from the current "environmental new deal" benefits that are a part of the mammoth bill in Congress because it's a non-union shop.

2 American companies doing great things for the country and not a single word of acknowledgement from the president. Embarrassing.

The latest EV credit proposal is a giant blowjob to the UAW. Blatant corruption.
More embarrassing. Despite this, Tesla will be just fine. Under the latest proposal, Tesla buyers will get an $8K point of sale rebate. Pretty sweet considering they've been without any federal credit for 2 years and demand is still soaring.

 

[mdk01]

2 American companies doing great things for the country and not a single word of acknowledgement from the president. Embarrassing.

The latest EV credit proposal is a giant blowjob to the UAW. Blatant corruption.
More embarrassing. Despite this, Tesla will be just fine. Under the latest proposal, Tesla buyers will get an $8K point of sale rebate. Pretty sweet considering they've been without any federal credit for 2 years and demand is still soaring.

What happened to "Solidarity Forever"?

And if Elon doesn't keep his mouth shut he could lose the point of sale rebate law well. Free speech cancel cultured.

 

[lne001]

You owned a car so you’re an expert on car tech? Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Once again you are unable to understand basic English. I said I understand substantially more than you about BEVs, which you clearly prove with each post and is the lowest of hurdles. Neither one of us is an expert, but compared to you .....

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[mildone]

Once again you are unable to understand basic English. I said I understand substantially more than you about BEVs, which you clearly prove with each post and is the lowest of hurdles. Neither one of us is an expert, but compared to you .....

So we're back to this old "argument" again are we? Here's the transcript from the last one:

Teslabots: Teslas are the best and safest cars ever!
mildone: Teslas are nice, but all these other EV and ICE cars are pretty cool and safe too.
Teslabots: You know NOTHING about EVs. 😠
mildone: 😃

Such third grade level discourse never fails to put me in my place. We're all so very impressed with your self-proclaimed inexpert knowledge of EVs. 🤣

Meanwhile, the actual expertise in building and selling cars possessed by all the major automotive manufacturers is what's actually relevant to the discussion.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

What happened to "Solidarity Forever"?

And if Elon doesn't keep his mouth shut he could lose the point of sale rebate law well. Free speech cancel cultured.

From everything I read, the majority of Tesla workers are very happy. Competitive wage, safe work environment, health care, and stock options.

 

[mdk01]

From everything I read, the majority of Tesla workers are very happy. Competitive wage, safe work environment, health care, and stock options.

Tell that to Congress and the unions. I said nothing that would contradict that.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Filed under Truth is Stranger Than Fiction:

 

[RUevolution36]

Filed under Truth is Stranger Than Fiction:

View embedded media

This type of stuff is why I won't buy a Ford either.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

This type of stuff is why I won't buy a Ford either.

Support Mexican union workers! What's more American than that?

 

[eliminate2006]

I'm not sure I have anything to add to the conversation but here goes anyway:

I'm likely taking delivery of a new Model 3 long range on Saturday. I would have done a lot to buy a different EV, but Tesla has a sedan, which I much prefer (BMW i4 to be released soon), also Tesla has a much longer range than the currently available vehicles, AWD is a plus.

My family has a plug in hybrid already, so I know what I'm getting into regarding charging and some of the limitations. I understand that Tesla is not perfect, for starters build quality and the interior are not great, the ordering and delivery process are awful, Tesla can't be bothered to use the standard for charging at home or fast charging, and Elon Musk is a liar and a jerk.

All this said, I want EVs to succeed and I want both Tesla and the other automakers to succeed in making and selling them.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

I'm not sure I have anything to add to the conversation but here goes anyway:

I'm likely taking delivery of a new Model 3 long range on Saturday. I would have done a lot to buy a different EV, but Tesla has a sedan, which I much prefer (BMW i4 to be released soon), also Tesla has a much longer range than the currently available vehicles, AWD is a plus.

My family has a plug in hybrid already, so I know what I'm getting into regarding charging and some of the limitations. I understand that Tesla is not perfect, for starters build quality and the interior are not great, the ordering and delivery process are awful, Tesla can't be bothered to use the standard for charging at home or fast charging, and Elon Musk is a liar and a jerk.

All this said, I want EVs to succeed and I want both Tesla and the other automakers to succeed in making and selling them.

Congrats on the new car; looking forward to hearing about your experiences with the car.

I wasn't clear on your comment about the standard for charging at home. I've been under the impression there is no set standard. In any case, you can easily purchase adapters for other kinds of charge ports.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Not sure if this is happening with other types of cars, but this is just crazy.