OT: Former Jet RB Joe McKnight murdered in road rage incident

[vkj91]

Nobody ITT would be clamoring for "the facts" if the roles were reversed.

Stop. You sound silly and sadly with a majority of the high profile cases lately we've seen the facts are very different than the original stories. When they aren't the people have been properly punished. Anybody who rushes to judgment based on any social media/news reports is setting themselves up to look foolish.

 

[yesrutgers01]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I sure would.

If it's racial roles you're talking about, then it's more than a little ironic that you are painting everyone in this thread with the same broad brush. Over-generalization is wrong even when it's not race-related.

Not everyone in this thread because there is a diverse group but...the point is not far off- if reversed, pretty much a shut and closed case...if you don't believe so, you are hidden under a rock.
Not to say this 54 yo man had every right to "defend" himself but roles reversed...........

 

[RU_Planning]

I don't recall the specifics, but the guy who murdered Will Smith in a road rage incident was charged with second degree murder. Was there video for that incident?

 

[mildone]

Not everyone in this thread because there is a diverse group but...the point is not far off- if reversed, pretty much a shut and closed case...if you don't believe so, you are hidden under a rock.
Not to say this 54 yo man had every right to "defend" himself but roles reversed...........

As I said, I'm not speaking for anybody else but myself.

I don't feel compelled in any way to reach any kind of conclusion. I seem to often annoy people because I refuse to form a firm conclusion about these sorts of things. Mostly because I feel like much of the media no longer accurately represents those facts without bias.

And in the absence of reliably reported facts, how can any of us reach a conclusion not based on possibly flawed assumptions?

So far, I can only conclude this event was tragic.

 

[formerlyknownasrutgers100]

I don't recall the specifics, but the guy who murdered Will Smith in a road rage incident was charged with second degree murder. Was there video for that incident?

Will smith also had a gun in his car btw which McKnight didn't

 

[RU_Planning]

Will smith also had a gun in his car btw which McKnight didn't

Tracing back it seems Smith was still in his car when he was killed, at least that is what it suggested in an article from back when the incident occurred.

 

[KingHigh]

I mean it's


Shooting an unarmed person because you feel threatened is horse bleep. SYG makes it way too easy to get away with needlessly killing someone.

There is a really easy way to avoid being killed under SYG laws: don't attack other people. it's easy to do. You just don't try to hurt others and you'll never have a problem. Real easy for most of us.

 

[jtung230]

There is a really easy way to avoid being killed under SYG laws: don't attack other people. it's easy to do. You just don't try to hurt others and you'll never have a problem. Real easy for most of us.

so you can start a fight but if the other guy doesn't run away and all of a sudden you get scared you can shot the other person. Real easy huh?

 

[KingHigh]

so you can start a fight but if the other guy doesn't run away and all of a sudden you get scared you can shot the other person. Real easy huh?

Syg does not protect the initial aggressor.

 

[RU_Planning]

Syg does not protect the initial aggressor.

How does one determine the aggressor, particularly in a road rage incident?

 

[ArminRU]

SYG allows people to get away with murder who probably should have just got their their ass beat.

Things used to be settled by a simple fistfight. Now you have neckbeards killing people because they ran their mouth, started to get smacked around, then they pull out their gun they have been dying to use on more alpha male.

 

[yesrutgers01]

SYG allows people to get away with murder who probably should have just got their their ass beat.

Things used to be settled by a simple fistfight. Now you have neckbeards killing people because they ran their mouth, started to get smacked around, then they pull out their gun they have been dying to use on more alpha male.

It creates too much of a gray area. What does one person perceive as threatening vs what really is? I have seen first hand where a 5ft10 180 lb guy gets loud and aggressive to a really big guy. Big guy turns around and gets loud back at the smaller guy and now smaller guy who may not have touched the big guy gets scared and thinks they may be in danger. Stands his ground and shoots big guy. He was in fear and never touched the big guy and big guy never touched him.

 

[jtung230]

Syg does not protect the initial aggressor.

Tell that to T Martin's family.

 

[Saint Puppy]

Wow - this SYG law has some definite holes in it - an unarmed man was shot and killed and the shooter potentially faces no repercussions? For this Particular case agree that we need to let the facts come out, but again something seems off with SyG.

 

[KingHigh]

Tell that to T Martin's family.

There was a whole trial with witnesses and judges, jury...the whole 9. witnesses testified under oath about what they saw which was trayvon violently attacking gz. same account zimmerman gave to officers. based on those facts (rather than what NBC news falsely reported over and over), Syg did apply there. it was a disgrace what the media did in that case to fool so many people about the true facts in that instance.

 

[KingHigh]

Wow - this SYG law has some definite holes in it - an unarmed man was shot and killed and the shooter potentially faces no repercussions? For this Particular case agree that we need to let the facts come out, but again something seems off with SyG.

I'm not sure how I feel about it either. too much room for unnecessary killing. at the same time, if I had to choose between getting my ass beaten, maybe to death maybe not, and shooting the guy in the chest, better him than me.

 

[WhiteBus]

This nut was arrested years ago for a road rage incident at the exact same intersection. Charged later dropped.

 

[jtung230]

There was a whole trial with witnesses and judges, jury...the whole 9. witnesses testified under oath about what they saw which was trayvon violently attacking gz. same account zimmerman gave to officers. based on those facts (rather than what NBC news falsely reported over and over), Syg did apply there. it was a disgrace what the media did in that case to fool so many people about the true facts in that instance.

He attacked him after Martin stalked him in a car and then on foot. Your cool with people stalking your kids for no reason?

 

[jtung230]

This nut was arrested years ago for a road rage incident at the exact same intersection. Charged later dropped.

Sanctuary city?

 

[KingHigh]

He attacked him after Martin stalked him in a car and then on foot. Your cool with people stalking your kids for no reason?

No, although I'm also not cool with people cutting through my yard at night when there are a lot of break-ins going on. that necessitated a neighborhood watch, of which gz was a member. in was in that regard that gz was following tm. which wasn't as unreasonable as you have just implied. would you agree?

 

[jtung230]

No, although I'm also not cool with people cutting through my yard at night when there are a lot of break-ins going on. that necessitated a neighborhood watch, of which gz was a member. in was in that regard that gz was following tm. which wasn't as unreasonable as you have just implied. would you agree?

We can agree to disagree on the TM issue. He followed him because he was black, I think that's unreasonable.

 

[KingHigh]

We can agree to disagree on the TM issue. He followed him because he was black, I think that's unreasonable.

That's a very diverse neighborhood. many black residents there. did gz follow all black men around? we never heard anything about that. so many people made this about race because the media forced people to learn about it that way. remember the edited 911 phone call? my faith in truthful media coverage about anything was irreconcilably destroyed when I learned about that. those bastard want us to hate each other over things like race. I refuse to fall for it.

 

[LevaosLectures]

I didn't see where it was stated that McKnight was confirmed as the aggressor. It may be able to be assumed since the shooter was let go. If I missed it, please share.

What does agreesor even mean? If he was possed off and got in the guy's face that is not license to shoot the guy dead.

There is a really easy way to avoid being killed under SYG laws: don't attack other people. it's easy to do. You just don't try to hurt others and you'll never have a problem. Real easy for most of us.

You don't get it.

 

[mildone]

You just don't try to hurt others and you'll never have a problem. Real easy for most of us.

Well sure, but where's the fun in that? :D

 

[retired711]

I'm not a criminal law expert, but I believe the first person to touch the other is the aggressor so far as the law is concerned. I think people should let the facts of the McKnight case come out before passing judgment..

 

[jtung230]

That's a very diverse neighborhood. many black residents there. did gz follow all black men around? we never heard anything about that. so many people made this about race because the media forced people to learn about it that way. remember the edited 911 phone call? my faith in truthful media coverage about anything was irreconcilably destroyed when I learned about that. those bastard want us to hate each other over things like race. I refuse to fall for it.

He was well known by the police department. He made many calls to the police department about suspicious person. something tells me he followed a lot of black people around. You don't have to fall for it but just don't be in denial.

 

[KingHigh]

He was well known by the police department. He made many calls to the police department about suspicious person. something tells me he followed a lot of black people around. You don't have to fall for it but just don't be in denial.

Gz has proven himself to be an asshole over and over again, so I'm not interested in defending him or his character. the social and legal concepts set forth the case are interesting to me.

 

[rutgersdave]

The fact that this guy was in another road rage case at the same intersection raises suspicious. We need to see how far McKnight was from the car for him to be shot. Why shoot him 3 times?

 

[RU_Planning]

What does agreesor even mean? If he was possed off and got in the guy's face that is not license to shoot the guy dead.



You don't get it.

That to me is the question. Aggressor seems very arbitrary, or likely very arbitrary in most stand your ground incidents.

 

[retired711]

I think my previous answer was an overgeneralization -- it varies from situation to situation -- but it's really not that hard in practice. If Gasser screamed at McKnight, and McKnight approached him with a deadly weapon, then McKnight is the aggressor. Verbal provocation does not make one an aggressor.

 

[RU_Planning]

I think my previous answer was an overgeneralization -- it varies from situation to situation -- but it's really not that hard in practice. If Gasser screamed at McKnight, and McKnight approached him with a deadly weapon, then McKnight is the aggressor. Verbal provocation does not make one an aggressor.

Well it seems that McKnight did not have a gun on him when he approached Gasser. Does approaching a man that screams at you make you an aggressor to justify deadly force?

 

[KingHigh]

Well it seems that McKnight did not have a gun on him when he approached Gasser. Does approaching a man that screams at you make you an aggressor to justify deadly force?

No but if the facts were, say, they have a traffic incident...he cuts off McKnight. McKnight angrily gets out of the car, approaches gasser menacingly banging on his car window trying to break it and perhaps drag gasser out, obviously a threat. gasser can shoot to neutralize this threat. you may prefer the man just take an ass whooping, but this law allows a man to protect himself from an aggressor. most States including New Jersey have Criminal justifications for the use of force including deadly force if necessary for self-defense. However, in non stand your ground States, the actor can still be arrested and charged. self defense becomes for him a defense to the charge in court.

In stand your ground states, however, it is ILLEGAL to arrest the actor unless and until there is probable cause that the action was NOT in self defense. this is the special aspect of the stand your ground law, and it is the reason gasser was released pending further investigation.

 

[retired711]

No but if the facts were, say, they have a traffic incident...he cuts off McKnight. McKnight angrily gets out of the car, approaches gasser menacingly banging on his car window trying to break it and perhaps drag gasser out, obviously a threat. gasser can shoot to neutralize this threat. you may prefer the man just take an ass whooping, but this law allows a man to protect himself from an aggressor. most States including New Jersey have Criminal justifications for the use of force including deadly force if necessary for self-defense. However, in non stand your ground States, the actor can still be arrested and charged. self defense becomes for him a defense to the charge in court.

In stand your ground states, however, it is ILLEGAL to arrest the actor unless and until there is probable cause that the action was NOT in self defense. this is the special aspect of the stand your ground law, and it is the reason gasser was released pending further investigation.

You would be right if McKnight was threatening deadly force, i.e. he had a weapon. Otherwise the self-defense argument wouldn't work. In that case, Gasser would not be a murderer but rather guilty of manslaughter. This charge is often used in a situation of "imperfect" self-defense.

 

[KingHigh]

You would be right if McKnight was threatening deadly force, i.e. he had a weapon. Otherwise the self-defense argument wouldn't work. In that case, Gasser would not be a murderer but rather guilty of manslaughter. This charge is often used in a situation of "imperfect" self-defense.

The point being that until all of those questions are solved and probable cause is reached that he did not have justification to do what he did, the stand-your-ground law makes it illegal for the state to arrest or charge him.

 

[retired711]

Even if stand-your-ground applies, it works only if the threat was one of deadly force. If stand-your-ground applies then Bob Marley could shoot the sheriff only because the sheriff was trying to shoot him down. It wouldn't have worked if the sheriff had only approached with the intent to have a fistfight.

 

[RUchip]

Yeah, the killer here looks like a real bad ass gang banger...

Who said anything about him being in a gang moron?

 

[RU-05]

No but if the facts were, say, they have a traffic incident...he cuts off McKnight. McKnight angrily gets out of the car, approaches gasser menacingly banging on his car window trying to break it and perhaps drag gasser out, obviously a threat. gasser can shoot to neutralize this threat. you may prefer the man just take an ass whooping, but this law allows a man to protect himself from an aggressor. most States including New Jersey have Criminal justifications for the use of force including deadly force if necessary for self-defense. However, in non stand your ground States, the actor can still be arrested and charged. self defense becomes for him a defense to the charge in court.

In stand your ground states, however, it is ILLEGAL to arrest the actor unless and until there is probable cause that the action was NOT in self defense. this is the special aspect of the stand your ground law, and it is the reason gasser was released pending further investigation.

If McKnight actually broke a window, kicked the door and it's dented up, or actually grabbed this guy, I could maybe see it. Is there any evidence of any of this?

But shooting a guy cause he's pissed off?

 

[RU-05]

Even if stand-your-ground applies, it works only if the threat was one of deadly force. If stand-your-ground applies then Bob Marley could shoot the sheriff only because the sheriff was trying to shoot him down. It wouldn't have worked if the sheriff had only approached with the intent to have a fistfight.

So then why was Gasser released? Where was the deadly force threat?

 

[TRU2RU]

Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.

We don't know the facts yet but McKnight was tried by 1 and carried by 6