OT: Former Jet RB Joe McKnight murdered in road rage incident

[yesrutgers01]

Coming from the guy who supports SYG but blames the victim for not walking away.

What if, Joe felt the other guy was threatening his life with a 4000 lb weapon?
I know that there are times I felt that way. Bottom line- I don't see any reason to fire shots out the back window. not in this case...I also doubt he had any idea this guy was ex NFL

 

[KingHigh]

Coming from the guy who supports SYG but blames the victim for not walking away.

When did I suggest that I support it? understanding how it works and correcting misconceptions about it is not supporting it. and calling the guy who is out of his car menacing another a "victim" is a little bit of a stretch. gasser will likely found criminally liable, but that is not an endorsement of McKnight's own actions.

 

[Knightmoves]

The question that seems relevant to me at this point is what were McKnights actions and what were his intentions when he got out of his car and approached Gasser's car ?

I wonder if we will ever get a good understanding of what happened here and what level of threat that Gasser actually experienced. The initial witnesses obviously lied to favor McKnight, while the story that was given by Gasser to the NOPD is obviously going to be slanted in his direction. But since he has been charged it seems clear that the police feel that Gasser is guilty. Apparently Gasser did himself no favors by talking to the police for ten hours without an attorney present.

 

[retired711]

Camdenlawprof...

Any thoughts about the Castle Doctrine and how it may apply here since the Doctrine extends to one's vehicle in Louisiana (knowing that McKnight exited his vehicle)?

I won't claim to be an expert in Louisiana law. But I can tell you that the castle doctrine means that if one is is confronted by a threat of force, one need not retreat further. At the same time, though, that individual can only use reasonable means of defense. That means that the individual can use deadly force only to confront a threat of deadly force. Apparently, the police and prosecution's theory is that Gasser was not faced with a threat of deadly force.

 

[retired711]

Damn right I'm assigning some blame to McKnight for contributing to creating an extremely dangerous situation Mr. Free Membership.

I don't think anyone would argue that McKnight bore no fault. But his killer bears more. That's why Gasser is being charged with manslaughter. To put it charitably, he overreacted.

 

[albanyknight]

Damn right I'm assigning some blame to McKnight for contributing to creating an extremely dangerous situation Mr. Free Membership.

My Lord are you pathetic. You can't even get right that I am a Premium member.

 

[RUbarb Pi]

Wtf is this with always having to say anyone is liberal or conservative. I know a hell of a lot of gun carrying conservatives that were highly confused by their laws down there. Not a single one I spoke to would have shot a person under these circumstances and if they did, they would fully expect to be arrested.
It is one thing to pull your gun and expect the unarmed man to retreat. At that point, if he doesn't retreat and continues at you, then shoot. If he retreats, the gun did what you hoped it would.
That is not a liberal view, just a bit of common sense.

"It is one thing to pull your gun and expect the unarmed man to retreat."
In a less than borderline situation, it is better to rely on martial arts training. That is what I took away from a presentation by a lawyer well versed in 2nd Amendment issues. Your defensive action cannot exceed the activity level of the threat. In consideration of that, it is probably best for a concealed carry permit holder to walk away from a situation. Avoidance and removing yourself from situations is a big part of being armed in public.

 

[batts]

McNight in a technical sense was partly responsible for his death. However, it is very doubtful that he anticipated that Gasser was a trigger happy vigilante with little regard for human life. Most of us at some point in our lives at least thought about leaving our cars to confront a reckless and /or obnoxious driver. Road rage brings out the worst in people. King High correctly pointed out that such actions can be very dangerous and deadly. However, Gasser deserves to be convicted of manslaughter and given the harshest of sentences. .

 

[miketd1]

Difficult for laws to anticipate all the different permutations of sets of facts.

That's why we have juries.

 

[retired711]

Difficult for laws to anticipate all the different permutations of sets of facts.

That's why we have juries.

Yes, but the jury will be instructed as to what the law and will be expected to follow it. Juries sometimes don't, of course, but that's fairly rare.

 

[yesrutgers01]

has anything come out saying or reporting that McKnight was either the aggressive driver or that he was aggressively confronting Gasser? Im not sure I have seen anything. And if there is nothing saying that is the case, why are we assuming he used any aggression at all?

 

[batts]

has anything come out saying or reporting that McKnight was either the aggressive driver or that he was aggressively confronting Gasser? Im not sure I have seen anything. And if there is nothing saying that is the case, why are we assuming he used any aggression at all?

The assumption of aggression is based solely on the fact that McNight exited his car and approached Gasser's car.

 

[yesrutgers01]

The assumption of aggression is based solely on the fact that McNight exited his car and approached Gasser's car.

Exactly...he could have also have been either coming out of his car to apologize and see if the other guy was already or maybe he was pissed off and out of his car trying to find out what the hell was wrong with this other guy but not threatening him in any way. We don't know but I find it interesting some are making excuses for the guy shooting him but altomatically assume McKnight was at least partially at fault for being the aggressor while there is no proof of that either.

 

[KingHigh]

Exactly...he could have also have been either coming out of his car to apologize and see if the other guy was already or maybe he was pissed off and out of his car trying to find out what the hell was wrong with this other guy but not threatening him in any way. We don't know but I find it interesting some are making excuses for the guy shooting him but altomatically assume McKnight was at least partially at fault for being the aggressor while there is no proof of that either.

I think our common Human Experience would guide us to the conclusion that after a heated traffic incident Joe McKnight was not exiting his car and approaching gasser to express care and apology. I suppose I'm jumping to conclusions. Speaking for myself, when I'm in a heated traffic incident, I must say I do not feel compelled to get out of my car and offer care and apology to the other party. And if I were in such a state of mind, I would probably approach in a way that would not compel the other party to shoot me to death. I agree that Gasser is guilty of a crime. Butt let's not pretend that McKnight did not contribute to the chain of events that led to the end.

 

[yesrutgers01]

I think our common Human Experience would guide us to the conclusion that after a heated traffic incident Joe McKnight was not exiting his car and approaching gasser to express care and apology. I suppose I'm jumping to conclusions. Speaking for myself, when I'm in a heated traffic incident, I must say I do not feel compelled to get out of my car and offer care and apology to the other party. And if I were in such a state of mind, I would probably approach in a way that would not compel the other party to shoot me to death. I agree that Gasser is guilty of a crime. Butt let's not pretend that McKnight did not contribute to the chain of events that led to the end.

You needed proof that Gasser was in the wrong, why don't you need proof that McKnight did something wrong?

 

[willisneverrana43]

has anything come out saying or reporting that McKnight was either the aggressive driver or that he was aggressively confronting Gasser? Im not sure I have seen anything. And if there is nothing saying that is the case, why are we assuming he used any aggression at all?

Unless the "who was the aggressor on the road" facts serve to inform whether McKnight at the passenger window was a threat requiring deadly force, it shouldn't much matter.

 

[jtung230]

You needed proof that Gasser was in the wrong, why don't you need proof that McKnight did something wrong?

Because he is not white.

 

[retired711]

I think our common Human Experience would guide us to the conclusion that after a heated traffic incident Joe McKnight was not exiting his car and approaching gasser to express care and apology. I suppose I'm jumping to conclusions. Speaking for myself, when I'm in a heated traffic incident, I must say I do not feel compelled to get out of my car and offer care and apology to the other party. And if I were in such a state of mind, I would probably approach in a way that would not compel the other party to shoot me to death. I agree that Gasser is guilty of a crime. Butt let's not pretend that McKnight did not contribute to the chain of events that led to the end.

What do you mean "*compel* the other party to shoot him to death? You mean you think McKnight held a gun to Gasser's head and said "shoot me or I'll kill you?" That's absurd. The whole basis for the charge against Gasser is that he did not have adequate reason to shoot McKnight. I do not know why you are so determined to find McKnight at fault when (according to the prosecution) Gasser was much more at fault.

 

[KingHigh]

What do you mean "*compel* the other party to shoot him to death? You mean you think McKnight held a gun to Gasser's head and said "shoot me or I'll kill you?" That's absurd. The whole basis for the charge against Gasser is that he did not have adequate reason to shoot McKnight. I do not know why you are so determined to find McKnight at fault when (according to the prosecution) Gasser was much more at fault.

I'm not saying Gasser was reasonable to shoot. sounds like he wasn't reasonable, legally. we act in ways to which we are subjectively compelled. he's a human being who processes information a lot like all other human beings. I'm giving both guys inferences that seem reasonable to me. I know it's unfashionable to think within gray areas but I'm not afraid to do so.

 

[retired711]

I'm not saying Gasser was reasonable to shoot. sounds like he wasn't reasonable, legally. we act in ways to which we are subjectively compelled. he's a human being who processes information a lot like all other human beings. I'm giving both guys inferences that seem reasonable to me. I know it's unfashionable to think within gray areas but I'm not afraid to do so.

Since we have no evidence as to what exactly McKnight did -- we do know he left his gun in his vehicle, but we don't know how he was acting toward Gasser -- there is nothing from which you can make an inference about him.

 

[Knightmoves]

Since we have no evidence as to what exactly McKnight did -- we do know he left his gun in his vehicle, but we don't know how he was acting toward Gasser -- there is nothing from which you can make an inference about him.

How likely was it that after McKnight exited his vehicle and approached Gasser that he led with an apology ?

That would likely be a first in road rage incidents.

We need more information before forming a responsible decision. Most of what is being discussed here is based on conjecture.

 

[KingHigh]

How likely was it that after McKnight exited his vehicle and approached Gasser that he led with an apology ?

That would likely be a first in road rage incidents.

We need more information before forming a responsible decision. Most of what is being discussed here is based on conjecture.

Exactly. there is reasonable doubt and there is ridiculous doubt.