OT: PATH extension to Nwk Airport?

[ScarletKid2008]

Can someone tell me why politicians think its a good use of money to extend the PATH to Newark Airport ?!

$1.7B for the project.

I just can't see that being a great use of money and resources. As of now you can take NJ transit from either NYC or Hoboken to get to the airport. I can't imagine anyone in Jersey City or Hoboken using the PATH (which it would be at least 1 transfer and min 20 minute ride) when you can drive to or taxi to the airport in 15 min (with no traffic) for about $20-30.

Wouldn't this money be better used to further improve NJ linkage and service into NYC? Fix Port Authority or Penn Station? More train capacity? Just seems to me the PATH linking to NWK Airport should be much lower on the list of Port Authority priorities.

http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf...ed_in_pa_spending_plan.html#incart_river_home

 

[AreYouNUTS]

My guess is that they've run the #'s and the NEC/monorail connection, to the airport, isn't going to be able to handle them in another 10 years. Linking the PATH directly would take a ton of strain off the bottleneck at the NEC/Airport stop.

 

[RAA-1]

Penn Station is not a Port Authority building and a new station will be located across the street at the old Post Office Building. This has been in the works for years. There are plans for a new Port Authority Bus Terminal which I believe will be built in the next few years.

Perhaps NJ wanted some Port Authority money spent in our State as NY is getting the new bus terminal and much construction at its 2 airports.

http://www.panynj.gov/press-room/press-item.cfm?headLine_id=2389

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/07/n...-for-penn-station-and-farley-post-office.html

 

[RUevolution36]

the PATH to EWR is a boondoggle project to try and boost the city of Newark.

 

[Upstream]

the PATH to EWR is a boondoggle project to try and boost the city of Newark.

How does it help the city? If anything, it potentially hurts the city as PATH riders would no longer have to transfer in downtown Newark to get to the airport.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

How does it help the city? If anything, it potentially hurts the city as PATH riders would no longer have to transfer in downtown Newark to get to the airport.

Exactly.

 

[Plum Street]

Heard it was some federal thing to put a path station somewhere in a poor neighborhood in Newark . This station would be between penn and airport. Only way to sell it to the paying public is to say path is getting extended from penn to airport. I would suggest anyone to look further into this and see if there is in fact path station planned in between in poor neighborhood.
Fed grant will spend some type of earmarked money for this certain ghetto area based on census data probably.

 

[Plum Street]

the PATH to EWR is a boondoggle project to try and boost the city of Newark.

Yes?

 

[bsh75]

Penn Station is not a Port Authority building and a new station will be located across the street at the old Post Office Building. This has been in the works for years. There are plans for a new Port Authority Bus Terminal which I believe will be built in the next few years.

Perhaps NJ wanted some Port Authority money spent in our State as NY is getting the new bus terminal and much construction at its 2 airports.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/nyregion/ny-nj-port-authority-new-bus-terminal.html

There are still major issues for a new Port Authority building. There are major disagreements for the sight. The proposal for a sight to the west of the current building will face major opposition in Manhattan that could prevent acquisition of the needed property. There seems to be split between NJ and NY sides of the PA. I would be surprised if a new terminal opened any time before 2030.

 

[retired711]

Can someone tell me why politicians think its a good use of money to extend the PATH to Newark Airport ?!

$1.7B for the project.

I just can't see that being a great use of money and resources. As of now you can take NJ transit from either NYC or Hoboken to get to the airport. I can't imagine anyone in Jersey City or Hoboken using the PATH (which it would be at least 1 transfer and min 20 minute ride) when you can drive to or taxi to the airport in 15 min (with no traffic) for about $20-30.

Wouldn't this money be better used to further improve NJ linkage and service into NYC? Fix Port Authority or Penn Station? More train capacity? Just seems to me the PATH linking to NWK Airport should be much lower on the list of Port Authority priorities.

http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf...ed_in_pa_spending_plan.html#incart_river_home

I'm probably wrong about this, but the idea may be to help the many carless individuals who live in Manhattan. LaGuardia and JFK airports are overcrowded, so it makes sense to encourage New Yorkers to use Newark.

 

[Plum Street]

I'm probably wrong about this, but the idea may be to help the many carless individuals who live in Manhattan. LaGuardia and JFK airports are overcrowded, so it makes sense to encourage New Yorkers to use Newark.

See my post above. If what I hear is right, It's to throw money into Newark into some poor neighborhood based on some scheme planning .

 

[Upstream]

Heard it was some federal thing to put a path station somewhere in a poor neighborhood in Newark . This station would be between penn and airport. Only way to sell it to the paying public is to say path is getting extended from penn to airport. I would suggest anyone to look further into this and see if there is in fact path station planned in between in poor neighborhood.
Fed grant will spend some type of earmarked money for this certain ghetto area based on census data probably.

WTF are you talking about. The plan is to extend PATH Service to parallel the NEC train line from Newark Penn Station to the existing Newark Airport Station where riders can transfer to the existing airport monorail system.

 

[Plum Street]

WTF are you talking about. The plan is to extend PATH Service to parallel the NEC train line from Newark Penn Station to the existing Newark Airport Station where riders can transfer to the existing airport monorail system.

That there will be another path stop in between. Or somewhere else in Newark a new path station built as part of this project? I heard it was all a scheme to find a creative way for the PA to get more federal money to "help the poor".

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

This is about connecting travelers in Manhattan to EWR.

 

[NotInRHouse]

A couple of things-

- A ride on NJT from NYC to EWR right now is more expensive and less convenient than JFK. NJT does not run all the time unlike the A or E train. The NJT ticket costs more than a subway fare plus Air Tran. And from Midtown, time wise it ends up being a wash quite often as you need to time your ride to EWR to catch a train.

- Will encourage more hotel stays in JC for tourists- same line to airport and to NYC. This is a growing business

- Could potentially add commuter parking to sweeten the deal for the burbs

 

[ScarletKid2008]

If anyone believes this is going to make people in Manhattan more likely to consider EWR than they do now, then they are very out of touch.

This would require someone from Manhattan to take a subway line to a PATH station then wait and transfer. And then most likely wait and transfer again to a second PATH train. And then wait and transfer again at the AirTran link to the airport. So that's 3 transfers !! No New Yorker would ever consider that a viable answer. Best case scenario is someone is downtown already near the one PATH stop and takes the WTC line to the AirTran link.

 

[WhiteBus]

Well anyone that thinks this a bad idea is crazy. Probably was against the NJT station at Newark Airport , which is a huge success. The amount of people that take the train to the airport is staggering.
I was one of those that thought that station was stupid, I was wrong.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Perhaps NJ wanted some Port Authority money spent in our State as NY is getting the new bus terminal and much construction at its 2 airports.

^^^This^^^

PATH is a NY+NJ entity. It is mainly focused on New York City and all the travel such a world city requires. Bridges, tunnels, airports... and as we saw in the WTC.. development projects that are tangentially related to same.

As such, PATH to Newark Liberty will help get travelers into and out-of Manhattan easier. And if they add another station nearby.. say in Elizabeth Seaport, they could make a big commuter lot there making commuting a bit easier as well for many NJ residents. More options.

 

[Upstream]

That there will be another path stop in between. Or somewhere else in Newark a new path station built as part of this project? I heard it was all a scheme to find a creative way for the PA to get more federal money to "help the poor".

Nope. That's not part of the plan. I just rechecked the PA website, just to confirm nothing in the plan had changed. No new station. Just extending PATH to the existing airport rail station.

 

[Plum Street]

Nope. That's not part of the plan. I just rechecked the PA website, just to confirm nothing in the plan had changed. No new station. Just extending PATH to the existing airport rail station.

Ok then I am mistaken. But you can still never trust the PA

 

[Upstream]

^^^This^^^

PATH is a NY+NJ entity. It is mainly focused on New York City and all the travel such a world city requires. Bridges, tunnels, airports... and as we saw in the WTC.. development projects that are tangentially related to same.

As such, PATH to Newark Liberty will help get travelers into and out-of Manhattan easier. And if they add another station nearby.. say in Elizabeth Seaport, they could make a big commuter lot there making commuting a bit easier as well for many NJ residents. More options.

No plans for an additional station beyond the airport station. But the plans do include a park-and-ride parking lot at the airport station for non-aviation commuters.

 

[OTBOTOR]

No plans for an additional station beyond the airport station. But the plans do include a park-and-ride parking lot at the airport station for non-aviation commuters.

And "access" to the station for the neighborhood along Frelinghuysen Ave. I think that's where the confusion may have come from. Currently you can't get to the Airport train station except by rail or monorail. With the PATH extension, commuters will be able to park, and neighbors will have new access to the station that they don't have now.

 

[Plum Street]

And "access" to the station for the neighborhood along Frelinghuysen Ave. I think that's where the confusion may have come from. Currently you can't get to the Airport train station except by rail or monorail. With the PATH extension, commuters will be able to park, and neighbors will have new access to the station that they don't have now.

Ok maybe that's it. I had heard that PA was doing some "creative and shady" planning to get its hands on federal money to help the poor. I was mistaken that it was a new station, but what you post makes sense.

 

[Upstream]

And "access" to the station for the neighborhood along Frelinghuysen Ave. I think that's where the confusion may have come from. Currently you can't get to the Airport train station except by rail or monorail. With the PATH extension, commuters will be able to park, and neighbors will have new access to the station that they don't have now.

There is no parking, but there is access to the current station for people who live nearby via the airport monorail to take NEC trains to downtown Newark or NYC.

The commuter parking lot is planned for commuters who are driving to the station (similar to how the 15X lot at the Secaucus Junction Station is used). The intent is that commuters from suburban NJ who may currently drive to private lots in Harrison or JC, or drive into NYC, would instead park at the PA-owned lot near the airport to commute to downtown Manhattan.

 

[RUevolution36]

Ok maybe that's it. I had heard that PA was doing some "creative and shady" planning to get its hands on federal money to help the poor. I was mistaken that it was a new station, but what you post makes sense.

https://www.panynj.gov/corporate-information/pdf/CPEAM-PUBLIC-PATH-to-EWR-Update-043015.pdf

http://www.newarkha.org/cni/CNIDOCS...on_Street_TP_-_Narrative_Only_04-09-14[1].pdf

 

[Plum Street]

https://www.panynj.gov/corporate-information/pdf/CPEAM-PUBLIC-PATH-to-EWR-Update-043015.pdf

http://www.newarkha.org/cni/CNIDOCS/CNI TRANSFORMATION PLAN/Draft_Dayton_Street_TP_-_Narrative_Only_04-09-14[1].pdf

So some of this is cloaked as a revitalization plan for the Dayton neighborhood in Newark.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I'm probably wrong about this, but the idea may be to help the many carless individuals who live in Manhattan. LaGuardia and JFK airports are overcrowded, so it makes sense to encourage New Yorkers to use Newark.

Manhattan? Last I checked --- NYC Penn Station to EWR Airport stop on the NE Corridor via NJ Transit is pretty damn simple already. Right?

 

[OTBOTOR]

There is no parking, but there is access to the current station for people who live nearby via the airport monorail to take NEC trains to downtown Newark or NYC.

But to get on the monorail don't you have to be on airport? To get on airport, people who live in the neighborhood have to take a bus. So for someone in South Ward to get to a train station 1,000 feet from their apartment, they need to wait for a bus that runs once an hour to connect to a monorail that runs once every 5-15 minutes to get to a train station to catch a train that runs anywhere from once every 10 minutes at peak to once an hour late/weekends. Am I missing something?

I'm not saying this access justifies the cost of extending PATH, but with or without PATH, I think it would be great to make it easier for people living a short distance away to get to the train. With this aspect of the project done, people living in Dayton can just walk 5 minutes to the train. And then rents will rise, kick everyone there now out, and Dayton could soon become NJ's hottest neighborhood.

 

[Upstream]

So some of this is cloaked as a revitalization plan for the Dayton neighborhood in Newark.

No it's not. Newark is a poor city with revitalization plans for most neighborhoods. But just because there is a revitalization plan for a nearby neighborhood does not mean that the revitalization plan is the purpose of extending the PATH line to the airport.

The purpose of extending the PATH line is to provide direct rail access from downtown Manhattan to Newark Airport (and conversely, to provide commuter access to downtown Manhattan).

If you really think the purpose is to revitalize a nearby poor neighborhood, then explain how opening a park-and-ride lot and PATH service benefits the neighborhood? There is already rail service from that station. If there is a need for cheaper transportation to serve that neighborhood, you could give them passes to use the existing rail service without paying the $5 airport transfer fee (or just run bus service) for a lot less than the $1.7B that the PATH extension will cost. Heck, for less than the $1.7B cost of the PATH extension, you could just give each of the 1500 households in that neighborhood a million dollars cash and move them to Short Hills.

 

[Upstream]

But to get on the monorail don't you have to be on airport? To get on airport, people who live in the neighborhood have to take a bus. So for someone in South Ward to get to a train station 1,000 feet from their apartment, they need to wait for a bus that runs once an hour to connect to a monorail that runs once every 5-15 minutes to get to a train station to catch a train that runs anywhere from once every 10 minutes at peak to once an hour late/weekends. Am I missing something?

I'm not saying this access justifies the cost of extending PATH, but with or without PATH, I think it would be great to make it easier for people living a short distance away to get to the train. With this aspect of the project done, people living in Dayton can just walk 5 minutes to the train. And then rents will rise, kick everyone there now out, and Dayton could soon become NJ's hottest neighborhood.

Yes, you have to get to the airport. Or you open a pedestrian entrance on the NJ Transit side of the station. Or you run more frequent bus or jitney service to downtown. If your goal is to improve transportation options to the 1500 households in that neighborhood, there are a lot of options that are better and cheaper than extending a PATH line.

But since the goal is to provide quick, direct service between the Airport and WTC, the PATH extension might make sense.

 

[Upstream]

Manhattan? Last I checked --- NYC Penn Station to EWR Airport stop on the NE Corridor via NJ Transit is pretty damn simple already. Right?

From midtown, yes. I think the goal here is to serve those who live/work/visit downtown and Wall Street.

There was an interesting Op-Ed in the NY Times today on why rural voters tend to be more conservative than urban voters. One of the reasons was that rural areas have to beg for infrastructure improvements while urban areas get lots of money so the rich can save a few minutes on their commutes. I think spending $1.7B so Wall Street traders can get to the airport 20 minutes faster falls into that category.

 

[demauroj]

the PATH to EWR is a boondoggle project to try and boost the city of Newark.

I disagree. With the extension to Newark Airport, it will be the only airport in the area with a direct subway train to both downtown NYC and one stop to midtown.

This is comparative to other major cities like Atlanta, Minnesota, Seattle etc, and will bring not only more people thru our airport. Which is more tax revenue.

It is a good infrastructure project and much more feasible then the ARC project was IMO.

 

[T2Kplus10]

From midtown, yes. I think the goal here is to serve those who live/work/visit downtown and Wall Street.

There was an interesting Op-Ed in the NY Times today on why rural voters tend to be more conservative than urban voters. One of the reasons was that rural areas have to beg for infrastructure improvements while urban areas get lots of money so the rich can save a few minutes on their commutes. I think spending $1.7B so Wall Street traders can get to the airport 20 minutes faster falls into that category.

Subway to Penn, problem solved! The $1.7B can be used for much more important needs. Seriously, every dime of money should be dedicated to funding new train tunnels under the Hudson.

 

[Upstream]

Subway to Penn, problem solved! The $1.7B can be used for much more important needs. Seriously, every dime of money should be dedicated to funding new train tunnels under the Hudson.

I don't disagree with that. I think improving the NEC tunnels to Penn Station is far more important to the economic health of the region. Saving 20 minutes on the trip between EWR and Wall St is pretty unimportant.

I'm not advocating the PATH extension. I was just trying to explain the rationale behind it.

 

[BeKnighted]

This would require someone from Manhattan to take a subway line to a PATH station then wait and transfer. And then most likely wait and transfer again to a second PATH train. And then wait and transfer again at the AirTran link to the airport. So that's 3 transfers !! No New Yorker would ever consider that a viable answer. Best case scenario is someone is downtown already near the one PATH stop and takes the WTC line to the AirTran link.

Uh, there are PATH stations at multiple locations in Manhattan - 6 in total. Lots of people live within walking distance of a PATH station. It also sounds like the WTC station would connect directly to the extension, so no change within PATH would be required from there.

And, in response to the comment above about taking a $20-$30 taxi instead of PATH from one of the New Jersey stations, a lot of people would prefer to save the money - the incremental cost of a round trip on PATH today would range from $5.50 to $0 if you had a monthly pass already.

All that said, given the choice, if $1.7 billion would be enough to get a 3rd tunnel under the Hudson, I'd go for that. Unfortunately, that's less an 1/4 of what the tunnel was estimated to cost in 2008.

 

[OTBOTOR]

Yes, you have to get to the airport. Or you open a pedestrian entrance on the NJ Transit side of the station. Or you run more frequent bus or jitney service to downtown. If your goal is to improve transportation options to the 1500 households in that neighborhood, there are a lot of options that are better and cheaper than extending a PATH line.

But since the goal is to provide quick, direct service between the Airport and WTC, the PATH extension might make sense.

Yeah the bolded was my point, and I think we agree. Opening a pedestrian entrance is a nice feature of this project (and should be done anyway), but that alone doesn't justify the whole project.

 

[Upstream]

Yeah the bolded was my point, and I think we agree. Opening a pedestrian entrance is a nice feature of this project (and should be done anyway), but that alone doesn't justify the whole project.

You don't have to do the project at all to open a pedestrian entrance. You can just open a pedestrian entrance. (And if you want a Park-and-Ride lot, you can open that too without extending the PATH line.)

 

[OTBOTOR]

You don't have to do the project at all to open a pedestrian entrance. You can just open a pedestrian entrance. (And if you want a Park-and-Ride lot, you can open that too without extending the PATH line.)

Yep

 

[RU_Planning]

That there will be another path stop in between. Or somewhere else in Newark a new path station built as part of this project? I heard it was all a scheme to find a creative way for the PA to get more federal money to "help the poor".

Ok maybe that's it. I had heard that PA was doing some "creative and shady" planning to get its hands on federal money to help the poor. I was mistaken that it was a new station, but what you post makes sense.

So some of this is cloaked as a revitalization plan for the Dayton neighborhood in Newark.

God forbid poor people get access to transit, @sshole.

 

[realhoops2]

Well anyone that thinks this a bad idea is crazy. Probably was against the NJT station at Newark Airport , which is a huge success. The amount of people that take the train to the airport is staggering.
I was one of those that thought that station was stupid, I was wrong.

The overriding gripe of some of the posters is directly related to the thought that this project is at least in part to help revitalize a "poor neighborhood". I don't know the true goal of this project (improved EWR access???) but it seems to me if they can achieve said goal while ALSO contributing to a neighborhood's revitalization it is a win-win. Amazing how some question the right to do that but then propose using the money to help wealthier people with their commute into NYC.