SCARLET KNIGHT STATUE

[ScarletKid2008]

I'm agreeing the 250 shield is not known for anything. The block R on that knight on the horse looks great. When perspective students and visitors hopefully take pictures next to the statue... Nobody is going to know what the 250 shield is. But put a block R on that thing somewhere and everyone knows it's Rutgers.

Our school and campus sorely need an identity. This is a great symbolic thing. But if nobody knows it's Rutgers then to me it feels like only a half cashed in opportunity.

 

[Leonard23]

And they both look a little cartoonish. Since as you say, they are mascots.

That is not the look @Cofifa and his gang are going for. Which is why it doesn't nor should it look like the guy who rolls around with the Dance Team. Even the one on horseback, while very cool for what it is, is a little too much.

Starting to get a "too many cooks" vibe here.

Too many cooks? LMAO. Don't be a d*sh. If you want it to be recognizable to non-Rutgers people then use a prominent R which has been used in some form since the 1800s. If not, then use an obscure academic 250 shield that's been around for less than a year that no one can identify. It's a missed opportunity.

 

[Cofifa]

Ok Leonard 23 you will not be able to have your photo taken with the statue

 

[Leonard23]

Ok Leonard 23 you will not be able to have your photo taken with the statue

I love all that you do for Rutgers & the idea to add a Scarlet Knight statue & I've been an early advocate for it, but it's a missed opportunity not using the R prominently, especially when you want it to be recognizable. If the R is best placed on the shield, instead of the chest, then put it there instead of using the 250 shield.

 

[ScarletKid2008]

I love all that you do for Rutgers & the idea to add a Scarlet Knight statue & I've been an early advocate for it, but it's a missed opportunity not using the R prominently, especially when you want it to be recognizable. If the R is best placed on the shield, instead of the chest, then put it there instead of using the 250 shield.

I think we are all coming from a passionate loving Rutgers place because my feelings and logic are strongly aligned with the above.

Cofifa is helping lead an iconic project. If the goal is to create a landmark statue which is known and famous for being on Rutgers campus, then those that know little to nothing about RU should be able to identify in seconds. The 250 shield does not do that because I'm about as die hard as a RU alumni there is and I'm unable to say the shield/crest is an identifiable RU symbol

A huge part of Rutgers branding and identity over the years is that they continual have changed the logos, symbols and signage. On campus today you have many remnants of that. The 250 logo is another example. That should be an anniversary only symbol- not an identifier for the school.

We should have a healthy debate/ discussion on the pros /cons on this because it is rather critical and permanent

 

[Leonard23]

Let's add another "cook" & see what @SF88 thinks.

 

[rumikenike]

I agree with the above.

The block R is what we're identied with now. Anytime someone sees the block R, they know it's Rutgers.

At its current state, no one would be able to guess that the knight that so much work has gone in to is the knight is from Rutgers.

 

[RUseaweed]

I'm in the 250 shield camp. There's no SC logo on Tommy Trojan nor PSU lion logo on their lion statue. Our statue can stand on its own.

 

[Upstream]

it's a missed opportunity not using the R prominently, especially when you want it to be recognizable.

The more I'm reading this thread, the more I am becoming strongly convinced that a Block R absolutely does not belong on the chest of the knight or on the shield.

• The statue is a classical medieval knight statue, not a cartoon knight statue.
• Medieval knights carried shields with crests or other designs on them. The most appropriate shield for the Rutgers knight to carry is the Rutgers Shield. The Rutgers Shield is what Rutgers University determined the shield to be. It does not contain a block R.
• Medieval knights did not have logos on their armor. To put a logo on the armor looks cartoonish. (I am also thinking the cape should be free of logos, but that is a decision that can be made later, and easily changed as often as desired.)

As far as the argument that without a Block R no one will recognize this as a Rutgers knight, that is a pretty weak argument. The Penn State lion statue doesn't have the Penn State logo on it's back. The Maryland Terrapin statue doesn't have the Maryland logo on its back. The West Virginia Mountaineer statue doesn't have a WV logo on his chest.

No one confuses the Princeton Tiger statue and the LSU Tiger statue, even though neither has a logo.

Why aren't they confused? Because one is in New Jersey and the other is in Louisiana. And most people taking the picture know which state they're in. Even for pictures posted on social media, the photo would likely be tagged identifying what it is, or at the very least it would be with a bunch of other photos of the campus.

So I think there is very little chance that a knight statue on College Avenue in New Brunswick will be confused for anything other than the Rutgers Scarlet Knight. And if anyone thinks their friends, seeing a picture of the knight in context of other pictures of Rutgers or a Rutgers football game, will be confused, then you should just tag your picture #RutgersScarletKnight.

 

[Cofifa]

Well said

 

[mentulbloc]

Agreed. A big R will look cartoonish. Was there any thought about the knight having a more action based stance? Like getting ready to charge, or shield up and sword back getting ready to swing....

 

[Cofifa]

Yes lots of discussion particularly about sword
The artist have some options but was concerned in a college environment of thinks like 15 fraternity brothers hanging on it
Those poses would have weakness and vulnerable to damage

 

[Upstream]

Yes lots of discussion particularly about sword
The artist have some options but was concerned in a college environment of thinks like 15 fraternity brothers hanging on it
Those poses would have weakness and vulnerable to damage

One type of damage you'll have to keep in mind is opposing fans painting their colors on the statue.

 

[Cofifa]

Yes this will be a very public place with lots of cameras I hope we don't experience a lot of vandalism
I would think not to many fans that can afford to travel from the mid west will be carrying paint ...but there always are the PSU Fans

 

[Cofifa]

Maybe we get fraternities to guard the statue on game weekends . Might be a good fundraiser or I could at least buy them pizza , tacos, subs, and cupcakes

 

[Korbermeister]

I agree that the a block R on the chest would obscured by the shield but I also agree that the Block R is our most recognized symbol. As of now, a stranger looking at the statue would need to squint to see the R on the handle of the sword. the problem is that the shield logo as is is largely unknown to the populous. Therefore the block R should be on the shield, taking up a quadrant.

 

[e5fdny]

Well said

When @Upstream says it, it usually is very well said.

 

[Upstream]

...but there always are the PSU Fans

Yeah. I wasn't really worried about OSU, Indiana, Wisconsin, or even Maryland fans painting the statue red.

 

[SF88]

Let's add another "cook" & see what @SF88 thinks.

Since I did start the thread...and was called out here....

Big shout out to Cofifa for making this happen, regardless of the details. It is a B1G deal and will become an iconic part of Rutgers for years to come, so we all want to get it right. I agree with both sides. Personally, I'd like to see the R on the chest of shield. I believe that the block R is THE logo for Rutgers, now and forever at this point. However, like others have said, the Knight is the Knight, and is our Knight, so it doesn't necessarily need a logo on it, ie Trojan/Lion/Spartan. I'm an advocate for a large base, like the above statues all have. Perhaps a large block R could be on the base?? I also, agree with the visor comments/suggestions. I think the UCF knight has it right

Side note, my daughter was wearing red high top Cons while committing to RU today!!!

 

[Cofifa]

Here's my position on a base we want to have the knight accessble for photos so if we go with a base it has to be high enough not to be a tripping hazard but enough room for a family to all get in a graduation photo
I will wait until the site work is done , lawn , granite curb, granite seat wall, bus shelter . If it all works I am amenable to a base but not like the Trojan it needs to be accessble

 

[Leonard23]

The more I'm reading this thread, the more I am becoming strongly convinced that a Block R absolutely does not belong on the chest of the knight or on the shield.

• The statue is a classical medieval knight statue, not a cartoon knight statue.
• Medieval knights carried shields with crests or other designs on them. The most appropriate shield for the Rutgers knight to carry is the Rutgers Shield. The Rutgers Shield is what Rutgers University determined the shield to be. It does not contain a block R.
• Medieval knights did not have logos on their armor. To put a logo on the armor looks cartoonish. (I am also thinking the cape should be free of logos, but that is a decision that can be made later, and easily changed as often as desired.)

As far as the argument that without a Block R no one will recognize this as a Rutgers knight, that is a pretty weak argument. The Penn State lion statue doesn't have the Penn State logo on it's back. The Maryland Terrapin statue doesn't have the Maryland logo on its back. The West Virginia Mountaineer statue doesn't have a WV logo on his chest.

No one confuses the Princeton Tiger statue and the LSU Tiger statue, even though neither has a logo.

Why aren't they confused? Because one is in New Jersey and the other is in Louisiana. And most people taking the picture know which state they're in. Even for pictures posted on social media, the photo would likely be tagged identifying what it is, or at the very least it would be with a bunch of other photos of the campus.

So I think there is very little chance that a knight statue on College Avenue in New Brunswick will be confused for anything other than the Rutgers Scarlet Knight. And if anyone thinks their friends, seeing a picture of the knight in context of other pictures of Rutgers or a Rutgers football game, will be confused, then you should just tag your picture #RutgersScarletKnight.

Agreed. A big R will look cartoonish. Was there any thought about the knight having a more action based stance? Like getting ready to charge, or shield up and sword back getting ready to swing....

The UCF knight statue has UCF on the shield & It isn't cartoonish.

Since I did start the thread...and was called out here....

Big shout out to Cofifa for making this happen, regardless of the details. It is a B1G deal and will become an iconic part of Rutgers for years to come, so we all want to get it right. I agree with both sides. Personally, I'd like to see the R on the chest of shield. I believe that the block R is THE logo for Rutgers, now and forever at this point. However, like others have said, the Knight is the Knight, and is our Knight, so it doesn't necessarily need a logo on it, ie Trojan/Lion/Spartan. I'm an advocate for a large base, like the above statues all have. Perhaps a large block R could be on the base?? I also, agree with the visor comments/suggestions. I think the UCF knight has it right

Side note, my daughter was wearing red high top Cons while committing to RU today!!!

Congrats!

 

[e5fdny]

The UCF knight statue has UCF on the shield & It isn't cartoonish.

But the school is. ;)

I look at it this way...this is going to be the "grown up" version of the Knight. Our Knight. Just in time for the 250th. This one "looks" the part for that.

And I do not need or want to see anybody climbing on it or getting too close so get that base thing down right, @Cofifa or the Block R will be the least of our problems.

 

[Korbermeister]

Yeah. I wasn't really worried about OSU, Indiana, Wisconsin, or even Maryland fans painting the statue red.

So you want it treated like a minor diety, untouchable? This isn't Colonel Henry or Mother Mary

 

[e5fdny]

So you want it treated like a minor diety, untouchable? This isn't Colonel Henry or Mother Mary

Without the R it could be seen that way down the road. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

 

[RC1966]

As an "old grad", I believe it's more appropriate for the scarlet knight statue to carry the commemorative shield rather than the block R because knights' shields of yore used to bear such heraldic symbols. Perhaps if the statue were located at the stadium, then the R, as the official spirit symbol, would be OK, but this statue will be facing the oldest part of the campus and should honor it's illustrious history. Rutgers, at least as I remember it, is much more widely regarded for its academic reputation than its athletic prowess. Our Scarlet Knight shouldn't seek to copy a knight statue at a school like UCF that has little history or tradition.

 

[mentulbloc]

I think the base should be prominent, give the knight a sense of grandeur. It should elevate the knight similar to what is in vorhees mall. Being on the ground makes it seem of less importance (just a photo op as opposed to our pride) and will allow people to dangle all over or vandalize it. Also the base could be a place to put the Rutgers R maybe straddled by 17 and 66 to satisfy both camps (new and old grads);
17 R 66
-It will also serve to emphasize how old this school really is.
@Cofifa again thanks doing all this and I don't mean to critique but it seems you are open to thought out suggestions.

 

[e5fdny]

Fix the visor, get a good base (with mentulbloc's suggestion) and I think were good.

 

[Leonard23]

As an "old grad", I believe it's more appropriate for the scarlet knight statue to carry the commemorative shield rather than the block R because knights' shields of yore used to bear such heraldic symbols. Perhaps if the statue were located at the stadium, then the R, as the official spirit symbol, would be OK, but this statue will be facing the oldest part of the campus and should honor it's illustrious history. Rutgers, at least as I remember it, is much more widely regarded for its academic reputation than its athletic prowess. Our Scarlet Knight shouldn't seek to copy a knight statue at a school like UCF that has little history or tradition.

That doesn't reconcile as the scarlet knight is an athletics mascot, not academics:

In the early 1950's, in the hope of spurring both the all-around good athletic promise and RU fighting spirit, a campus-wide selection process changed the mascot to that of a Knight.

By 1955 , the Scarlet Knight had become the new Rutgers mascot. The Scarlet-garbed knight, riding a spirited white charger, came to represent a new era - the rejuvenation of first class football "On the Banks."
http://www.scarletknights.com/trads/tradition.html

 

[mentulbloc]

That doesn't reconcile as the scarlet knight is an athletics mascot, not academics:

In the early 1950's, in the hope of spurring both the all-around good athletic promise and RU fighting spirit, a campus-wide selection process changed the mascot to that of a Knight.

By 1955 , the Scarlet Knight had become the new Rutgers mascot. The Scarlet-garbed knight, riding a spirited white charger, came to represent a new era - the rejuvenation of first class football "On the Banks."
http://www.scarletknights.com/trads/tradition.html

I'm not sure what you are proposing then...a book with our logo on it? Not to be tongue in cheek but we are talking about placing an iconic statue on the campus, a sense of school pride. Our pride is the knight. I do agree that a big R on the knight is somewhat cartoonish but that block R is also what most graduating alums will now come to recognize as the symbol of our school. It is what's on cars, banners, flags, helmets, T-shirts and should to some degree be on our icon. The shield is our emblem and our base is our alums and fans who dorn the Rutgers R. It makes sense that it should be represented somewhere on this statue, particularly the pedestal.

 

[ScarletKid2008]

I'm loving this conversation and how people are coming with logical and progressive ideas to accommodate all thoughts / views.

I think this is a huge project and something that can honestly change some perspective- so naturally we all get excited and want to get it right.

Probably one of the most productive and collaborative threads I've ever seen on these boards. Thanks Cofifa

 

[mentulbloc]

so a base with 17 R 66, shield with emblem, new visor and we are all satisfied? =)

 

[e5fdny]

I'm loving this conversation and how people are coming with logical and progressive ideas to accommodate all thoughts / views.

I think this is a huge project and something that can honestly change some perspective- so naturally we all get excited and want to get it right.

Probably one of the most productive and collaborative threads I've ever seen on these boards. Thanks Cofifa

Welcome to the grown up table on ScarletNation

 

[Cofifa]

I am definitely coming around on the base I need to figure out how high
I will not be able to afford a Willi style base but more of a large piece of granite
I like the block R on the base and maybe the 1766 all good ideas
I hope you all show up for the unveiling

 

[e5fdny]

I am definitely coming around on the base I need to figure out how high
I will not be able to afford a Willi style base but more of a large piece of granite
I like the block R on the base and maybe the 1766 all good ideas
I hope you all show up for the unveiling

You'll have at the minimum four sides to work with so maybe something unique on each side?

 

[Leonard23]

I'm not sure what you are proposing then...a book with our logo on it? Not to be tongue in cheek but we are talking about placing an iconic statue on the campus, a sense of school pride. Our pride is the knight. I do agree that a big R on the knight is somewhat cartoonish but that block R is also what most graduating alums will now come to recognize as the symbol of our school. It is what's on cars, banners, flags, helmets, T-shirts and should to some degree be on our icon. The shield is our emblem and our base is our alums and fans who dorn the Rutgers R. It makes sense that it should be represented somewhere on this statue, particularly the pedestal.

so a base with 17 R 66, shield with emblem, new visor and we are all satisfied? =)

I am definitely coming around on the base I need to figure out how high
I will not be able to afford a Willi style base but more of a large piece of granite
I like the block R on the base and maybe the 1766 all good ideas
I hope you all show up for the unveiling

While I'd prefer the R on the shield (1st choice) or chest (2nd choice), as a consolation, I'm in favor of having it somewhere prominently on the front of a base, as it's just too symbolic of Rutgers identity to not have it. If there isn't a base, then maybe some sort of plaque on the ground in front of it could have the R.

 

[mentulbloc]

How much would a reasonable and semi grand appearing base cost? Perhaps a fund could be started that people could get their names on bricks surrounding the statue or a plaque placed at the rear of the base with engraved names of those who donated. Always looking for a good tax write off .... @Cofifa what size base in terms of height can u guys currently afford?

 

[Cofifa]

Well since the base wasn't in the budget I have no idea
I still think it should have a base that allows people to stand next to it
I am thinking a very large piece of granite

 

[e5fdny]

How much would a reasonable and semi grand appearing base cost? Perhaps a fund could be started that people could get their names on bricks surrounding the statue or a plaque placed at the rear of the base with engraved names of those who donated. Always looking for a good tax write off .... @Cofifa what size base in terms of height can u guys currently afford?

Now we're talking!

And if it's grand enough to require some sort of landscaping I'd like to see some Cook kids get a shot at it.

 

[e5fdny]

Well since the base wasn't in the budget I have no idea
I still think it should have a base that allows people to stand next to it
I am thinking a very large piece of granite

Eh, I fine with them being in the vicinity to it...

(notice the base, gang?)

 

[Cofifa]

I can't Over complicate this place we have 7 stores , landscaped beds, a lawn , a 359sf outdoor LED board, various plazas , built in furniture , loose furniture , umbrellas, trees
We added a statue ... Gotta keeps this simple