Camp War: Total Victory on All Fronts
- Thread starter Eagleton96
- Start date
I will say that money and victors seem genuine in their posts and are more about 'talking shop' as opposed to goofy trash-talk. I actually think aged wolverine is also a good poster too...some of the other 'visiting' posters, not so much.
Joe P.
Joe P.
I can understand Ash's decision to hold another camp opposite Michigan. The bottom line is he has to do SOMETHING to energize a fanbase, to rally the troops, whatever usual sports phrase you want to use.
I'll withhold my comments on the suggestion that Rutgers is "cleaning up", or that there has been a sizable shift in recruiting New Jersey. Your sample size is tremendously small, and is open to interpretation, to say it midly.
But what I want to speak to, is something that I would bet money makes most Rutgers' fans uneasy, if they can actually admit it.
What I'm referring to, is what is going to happen when the season starts. This, believe it or not, is the "easy time" of the build. Ash still has that new car smell, recruits are interested, everything is good, the kool-aid is delicious, and you guys are drinking it by the gallon. This was no different than MIchigan fans with RichRod (to a degree), Hoke, and big time with Harbaugh (understandably given his pedigree).
But the bottom line is, you have to deliver, you have to win, because THAT is what attracts and keeps the top talent. Make no mistake, even with Harbaugh's pedigree, and Michigan's name, had Harbaugh not delivered a 10 win season, his stellar 2016 class would have finished much differently.
Looking at Rutgers' schedule, I see a best case scenario of 4-5 wins. I see games that *could* get ugly for the Scarlet Knights. The smell might come off the rose really quick, so to speak.
I'll withhold my comments on the suggestion that Rutgers is "cleaning up", or that there has been a sizable shift in recruiting New Jersey. Your sample size is tremendously small, and is open to interpretation, to say it midly.
But what I want to speak to, is something that I would bet money makes most Rutgers' fans uneasy, if they can actually admit it.
What I'm referring to, is what is going to happen when the season starts. This, believe it or not, is the "easy time" of the build. Ash still has that new car smell, recruits are interested, everything is good, the kool-aid is delicious, and you guys are drinking it by the gallon. This was no different than MIchigan fans with RichRod (to a degree), Hoke, and big time with Harbaugh (understandably given his pedigree).
But the bottom line is, you have to deliver, you have to win, because THAT is what attracts and keeps the top talent. Make no mistake, even with Harbaugh's pedigree, and Michigan's name, had Harbaugh not delivered a 10 win season, his stellar 2016 class would have finished much differently.
Looking at Rutgers' schedule, I see a best case scenario of 4-5 wins. I see games that *could* get ugly for the Scarlet Knights. The smell might come off the rose really quick, so to speak.
Yost24,
I think most knowledgable Rutgers fans understand that. Ash is at a great disadvantage this year because he is working with the last regime's players (minus some really good ones due to graduation and leaving for the NFL) in both new offensive and defensive schemes. For the most part fans know that there could be a potential for disaster while we hope for the best. It's not like this has never happened before in the world of college football where a new HC came in with a new staff to take over for a fired prior coach and completely changed the way the team works. Sometimes the first year is worse than what the fired coach achieved and other times everything magically jells and the results are amazing. I think everyone will give Ash the benefit of the doubt if the scores don't show improvement in the first year as long as the effort is there and the team acts competitive.
I think most knowledgable Rutgers fans understand that. Ash is at a great disadvantage this year because he is working with the last regime's players (minus some really good ones due to graduation and leaving for the NFL) in both new offensive and defensive schemes. For the most part fans know that there could be a potential for disaster while we hope for the best. It's not like this has never happened before in the world of college football where a new HC came in with a new staff to take over for a fired prior coach and completely changed the way the team works. Sometimes the first year is worse than what the fired coach achieved and other times everything magically jells and the results are amazing. I think everyone will give Ash the benefit of the doubt if the scores don't show improvement in the first year as long as the effort is there and the team acts competitive.
I can see where you're coming from but you're missing some key details:
-For better or worse, Rutgers isn't Michigan. Expectations are different. Michigan has been playing 1A football since the early 20th century; Rutgers since about 1980 or so. While our team will aim to win every game it plays in, I doubt many fans/recruits/ their families and coaches are fully expecting a 10-win season for Rutgers in 2016 (see below).
-New year, new staff, completely new schemes primarily with players who were not recruited for said schemes. I think most football people know that it usually takes a year or two for a program to adjust, especially when recruiting was relatively 'light' over the last 3 seasons. I think as long as we show fight and improvement we can be ok (similar to the improvement we showed under Schiano in his earlier seasons)
-I think most Rutgers fans and recruits understand we're coming off a rough 2015 season on and off the field that gut-punched the program. I think it's reasonable to think that as long as we show improvement and carry ourselves well/ competitively, recruits can forgive a potential losing season in 2016 and see the bigger picture.
Joe P.
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Really? That's the best case you can see? I disagree. Games we can win that would not be much of an upset: Howard, New Mexico, Illinois, Indiana, at Maryland. That is five right there.
Games we can win that would be bigger upsets: Washington (brand new schemes with no film study, unlikely but doable); Iowa (whIle they had a good 2015 they were not all that in 2014, I think); at Minnesota (if we can handle the run); Penn State (they lost some big time defensive players and will have a new QB, home game, wild atmosphere).
The rest would be bigger upsets.
Best case IMO is a bowl game with a winning record. I am not predicting 7+ wins but it is possible.
All true. We don't have to win more than 4-5 games to hold the class together. As others mentioned, nobody expects this team with no QB and a new scheme and lesser talent to win big. And the coaches will be preparing the recruits for what's to come, they aren't dumb. The odds are in our favor that we hold the class together, but it could all fall apart, no doubt. But we can't get embarrassed repeatedly and could use a couple of moral victories where we play tough against teams with better talent.
Was with you up until "best case scenario of 4-5 wins". Not sure where that comes from. There are definitely 5 wins on the schedule without a "best case scenario" (Howard, New Mexico, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland), and more in a "best case scenario" season.
You make many valid points, particularly the "new car" metaphor. Yes, there is a lot of buzz with our new coach. Sizable shifts in recruiting is a largely relative term. For US, we have never had (and it is very early) this many top tier recruits FROM NJ. That is where we see a major change in the recruiting.
I agree with many here that a bowl game is "doable", though I recognize it won't be a simple task either. For my part wins and losses will matter less if we don't get torched as often, or as badly, as last year. This part remains to be seen.
“Myself, my team, my school are being viciously and personally attacked for having a coach from another state speak at our graduation ..."
My, my, my ... me, me, me ... get over yourself !
Really? If you are so thoroughly & intentionally obtuse that you are unable to figure out why this is happening
- go hire a marketing/public relations consultant & pay them some big bucks to explain it to you in small words.
Here's a free hint - actions speak loudly - a pattern of actions become perceived even more loudly
- and the accumulation of actions by your institution has resulted in a prevailing perception that your institution, in general, is decidedly inclined to say "F-U" to Rutgers at just about all available opportunities - You don't like that? Then fix it - do things to change perceptions - stop enabling actions that reasonable people will perceive as an intentional sharp poke in the eye to Rutgers - don't just whine & moan that you are not being perceived that way that you like.
My, my, my ... me, me, me ... get over yourself !
Really? If you are so thoroughly & intentionally obtuse that you are unable to figure out why this is happening
- go hire a marketing/public relations consultant & pay them some big bucks to explain it to you in small words.
Here's a free hint - actions speak loudly - a pattern of actions become perceived even more loudly
- and the accumulation of actions by your institution has resulted in a prevailing perception that your institution, in general, is decidedly inclined to say "F-U" to Rutgers at just about all available opportunities - You don't like that? Then fix it - do things to change perceptions - stop enabling actions that reasonable people will perceive as an intentional sharp poke in the eye to Rutgers - don't just whine & moan that you are not being perceived that way that you like.
Let me see if I under stand this. A high school in your state has the top players in your state who have aspiration to play in the NFL. They are also pretty good students that meet the entrant requirements at UofM. These same players do not choose RU. For this you fault the HS president and when he invites a nationally recognized figure that happens to be the coach of the university you find personal attacks as an acceptable means of modifying behavior.
Here's a free hint - actions speak loudly - a pattern of actions become perceived even more loudly. Win some football games, Show you can get the top players to the NFL while offering a solid education. Get over yourself.
Hiring Ash was a good start.
Here's a hint. Know some facts before you start telling others what to do. 24 Michigan players on NFL rosters. 25 Rutgers players on NFL rosters. Adios amigo.
Yeah, you reveal your ignorance with the NFL line.
A top high school in our state has:
- Hosted a camp run by Michigan
- Asked the Michigan HC to speak at graduation
- Will be moving a game to Michigan stadium
That's pretty clearly saying "we're hitching our wagon to Michigan, and our state university can go pound salt". Can't fault Rutgers fans for taking issue with that.
Then, to have the high school complain about magnets, a teddy bear, and a letter that spelled out "Go F---Yourself" down the left side as if it was people spraypaing hate speech on the walls of the cafeteria? That's about the tamest prank one could possibly have imagined.
Now, imagine a top Michigan HS started doing that with Ohio State. Hosts an OSU camp, asks Urban Meyer to speak at graduation, moves a game to The Horseshoe, all after having their former coach hired to the OSU staff... and then having the HS bitch and moan about a minor prank... You don't think that Michigan fans would take issue with that?
If you believe that, you probably believe Harbaugh will be around in ten years, too.
If that is all you have as a reply you missed the point. Please share your thoughts on personal attacks on a HS president for inviting a out of state coach to be commence speaker.
Since the Harbaugh hire the UofM coaching staff is loaded with coaches with NFL experience. Michigan is coming off 7 years of marginal coaching staffs. Kids see Harbaugh and staff as a path to the NFL.
Oh by the way in the last 5 years Rutgers players drafted 10 UofM 13 In 2016 Rutgers had 1 player drafted while Michigan had 3.
I'm sure there would be plenty of unhappy fans. My question was do you feel personal attacks on the HS president are an acceptable way to change the behavior of the president and will it stop top recruits from leaving the state?
You are revealing your Homerism with your NFL comment. If you think recruits feel the Current Rutgers staff will be better at knowing what it takes to get into the NFL than a bunch of Michigan coaches with NFL experience you are wrong.
This is a minor point but the numbers quoted in the 24/25 are 1015 numbers and do not take into account the 2016 draft numbers. 1 Rutgers 3 Michigan.
I will jump in and share my thoughts because your ignorance about NJ and Paramus Catholic finally touched a nerve. As a graduate of Paramus Catholic, it was an embarrassment to me to have Harbaugh speak at commencement. Am I qualified in your eyes to render that opinion?
When I graduated PC, our football team was not competitive with the parochial powers in NJ on any type of consistent basis. Was I proud of our team when we won state championships? Yes. Did I go watch and cheer for them at MetLife Stadium? Yes. But I will be critical of the president of PC because he appears to have placed football above everything else at the school the past few years and drawn the ire/hatred of many in the area. There have been allegations of recruiting tactics/transfers I cannot even defend.
When I graduated, a Senator from NJ spoke at my commencement. Not a narcissistic, albeit highly successful, football coach who is using my school for his own self-interests, who is borderline crazy, and who pushes the rules to their absolute limits. Now, my high school is hated in NJ and I have to answer embarrassing questions when people find out where I graduated from.
You Colossally DO NOT understand the situation.... you are pontificating upon this through an immediate & generalized time frame focus - and presuming it is as though Harbaugh was the root causal factor - when, if you knew the back stories, you would see that he is but a element of an ongoing pattern of activity.
Depends what you mean by "personal attacks." He has been roundly criticized, and like anyone who has the misfortune to be negatively in the public eye in the NY media market, some criticism comes in four letter words. So what? That's how things work. It's not a mystery or a coordinated effort. Do something people don't like and you get criticized. Publicly whine about the completely expected and frankly pedestrian criticism, and you get attacked more. That's Jersey Media 101.
People in NJ pay taxes to Rutgers. Kids who aren't top football recruits rely on in-state tuition and all kinds of state support to advance in life. Rutgers is a huge economic driver in NJ that supports all of us. The rest of the state of NJ actually has pride in our home. PC doesn't need to send their players to RU. They can ensure that those players have all the options in the world and fully explore those options. They just can't actively undermine Rutgers and become an open feeder program for a Rutgers competitor. They will be ostracized and rightfully so.
He will think twice about doing things that show allegiance to an out of state school in the future. And it will be a message to others that you will get the same treatment if you try to undermine the State U. All as it should be.
Victors, see Eagleton and Clearscreen's posts for a good idea of some of the dynamics here. It's not 'just Michigan' that's the issue. PC hasn't been a consistent parochial power the way your press and maybe 1 NJ reporter seems to cover. For years they were 'good in cycles', then around 2011-2012 went supernova seemingly overnight. How they went supernova has been an area of controversy and speculation in North Jersey football circles. As Clear noted, PC has seemingly gone 'all in' on football. What's 'all in'? Tough to say definitively. There have been allegations of recruiting/ tampering. Their peer schools have seemingly made it known they do not appreciate or respect how PC has gone about handling their business-whatever that may be.
...now PC doesn't owe Rutgers any favors; each is their own institution...but when your institution resides 50 or so miles from the flagship state U that's also now in the B1G, with a number of your own students attending said state U, and you all of a sudden form a very public alliance with an out-of-state U (that's hundreds of miles away with no religious links to your Catholic-based school or even shared academic programs) that's a direct competitor your state U, I don't know how you can't expect some double-takes or criticism. Add that dynamic into the ones unique to NJ HS ball and you start to get a more complete idea of why there has been a lot of criticism regarding the Michigan/PC issue.
Joe P.
...now PC doesn't owe Rutgers any favors; each is their own institution...but when your institution resides 50 or so miles from the flagship state U that's also now in the B1G, with a number of your own students attending said state U, and you all of a sudden form a very public alliance with an out-of-state U (that's hundreds of miles away with no religious links to your Catholic-based school or even shared academic programs) that's a direct competitor your state U, I don't know how you can't expect some double-takes or criticism. Add that dynamic into the ones unique to NJ HS ball and you start to get a more complete idea of why there has been a lot of criticism regarding the Michigan/PC issue.
Joe P.
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Your sentiment is largely correct, in my opinion. I would point out one thing:
To have a "sizable shift" in NJ recruiting is relative comparison, and has happened. Even with a small sample size, the previous coach, Flood, did so terrible in NJ recruiting that even being average in NJ recruiting for a short time is a sizable shift. It was a low bar, no doubt. The 2015 season especially was a disaster on the field and somehow even worse off the field.
Ash will not need a 10 win season this year to continue his momentum -- this won't be Rich Rod where a sub-par first season already presented a huge obstacle -- but you are right that no games have been played. Ash will need to show life this season in some way (maybe getting better by end of year or pulling off one unexpected win) and will certainly need to show improvement record-wise by year 2.
But yeah, look at the schedule. For most, this season won't be judged by how Rutgers does against Michigan or Ohio State, but how they do against Illinois, Minnesota, Indiana, Maryland, New Mexico, and Penn State.
Those are staggering stats you provide. Michigan is the best!!! Oh, my personal thoughts are that Vail is a douche. Just because he runs the school doesn't mean he can't be a douche.
Actually, it speak volumes about the inability of "4 and 5 star" players (overrated) to stick with a NFL team. UNPREPARED AND OVER-HYPED. Little Rutgers not known for football has more players in the NFL than big bad MICHIGAN, now that's funny... and a FACT.[roll] Please stop using that lame excuse of bad coaches at UM the last few years.:chairshot:What's next... Ohio State and Alabama are don't have more national championships because you said so.[laughing] No one here would be upset if you didn't post anymore Michigan this or Michigan that crap.[cheers]
7 wins is not possible. 5 wins is an absolute best case scenario. 3-4 is more likely. And just as good a chance if not better we end up with 2 wins rather than 5.
I think the fan base needs a wake up call. IF we do end up with 5 wins I think it would be pretty safe to say Ash will have Rutgers above penn St and on par with Michigan St and Michigan WAY SOONER than expected.
7 wins is a stretch for Rutgers this year, but it's not impossible. I think people shouldn't just look at things from Rutgers prospective. People give Rutgers so little credit and give too much to opponents. If I ask you to breakdown the 2016 opponents chances are you couldn't. I'm not saying these are given wins for Rutgers, but let's not give away games based on nothing. Here's a quick breakdown of some of 2016 opponents. It's not in depth, but does raise concerns for the opponents.
B1G opponents: Illinois's top receive coming off a major knee injury. Solid RB, but lack depth at skill positions to help ease pressure off the top WR and RB. Sounds familiar... hmmm Defense was OK at home and so-so on the road. Now they are changing their scheme and got a late start. It didn't go all that well in the spring.
Indiana: Gone stud QB and RB. We saw what this offense look like when neither were in the game... now what? Plus they lose one of their top 2 OL to the draft. Their to DL declare early for the draft on a defense that was suspect for the start.
Maryland: QB situation is worse than Rutgers. Several defensive players didn't return. Depth is an issue across the board for the defense. The offense lost depth at WR and the back RB.
Minnesota: You see it will be easier to pass on their secondary because most of the studs are gone. The offense was run, run and run some more. The TE saved them a lot, but he gone too.
PSU: the DL was the lifeblood of the defense and it's basically gone. Lets' see with a new DC and important parts to replace who they do overall. The offense has a strong RB who makes the OL look good, but even that doesn't stop the OL from slowing down the RB at key moments. The OL hasn't shown the ability to improve and now through in replacing a 4 year at QB. Did I mention a new OC.
WOW this all sounds similar to issue Rutgers is dealing with now. Everyone had major problem that can blow up at any given minute. Hopefully Ash is better at the details to prevent it from costing Rutgers.
7 wins is not possible? Seriously? If you truly feel that way, would you make a 1000 to 1 odds bet on us not winning 7? If not, then you do not think it is not possible.
If you can find an actual line (judging you don't bet by your post) for Rutgers O/U 6.5 I will take you up on that bet and you can name the amount. Just show me the site.
Don't bet. This is my 17 years of coaching instincts. I've been within a game every year since 2008. 2010 was the one year where I was way off, but that was the year EL had his major injury. Now that school is out for the summer I will spend time watching the spring games and several games from last year on all of Rutgers' opponents. I'll keep watch from player movement and roster updates. I'm not going to sit and say I know it all, but I trust my judgement over most publications. Outside of the top 15 schools the publication don't do indepth research.
7 wins? Are people serious? This is coach who hasn't coached a game, and had a month to recruit his first class which isn't even on campus yet. We are completely changing the whole offensive system which requires different athletes.
7 wins this year and we have a future HOF coach on our hands, it would be that incredible.
5 wins for this team would be a very nice debut.
7 wins this year and we have a future HOF coach on our hands, it would be that incredible.
5 wins for this team would be a very nice debut.
Spot on. And we were 4-8 last year with ABYSMAL coaching, lots of players lost due to arrest, injury, etc. and our HEAD COACH suspended for 1/4 of our season. To think we can't improve upon that by 1 or 2 wins is just silly. Besides, I still maintain that college football is set up for teams to finish 6-6. The amount you deviate from that either positively or negatively depends on a host of factors. Our locker room was a dumpster fire last year, our head coach (who was average at best to begin with) was suspended for 3 games. There were fights in the parking lot between players and their girlfriends after the games. And we still won 4 games and were two blown 4th quarter leads from finishing 6-6. I"m confident we will hold on to the majority if not all of our verbal commitments.
Dude, it's 2016. NFL teams find the talent, no matter where they play. Could be Michigan, could be Rutgers, could be Missouri Baptist University, could be on the moon. If you can play, they will find you. "Preparing kids for the NFL" is so overhyped. Even if a college player isn't coached up and isn't drafted, if they have the measureables, raw ability and work ethic they can showcase their talent at an undrafted rookie camp/tryout and get on a roster for NFL fall camp where they will receive this coaching of which you speak while competing for a job. It really is that simple.
Victor, I don't mean to come at you. I'm just saying that any good coach worth a damn who TEACHES the game will prepare players for the next level.
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Joe
Thanks for the background and helping me understand the NJ mentality. Not a knock on NJ.
I will say this from my exposure to Parochial schools in various states I have lived in. Unlike public HS who's players must live in the schools boundaries the parochial schools have boundaries that are county or state wide depending on your state HS athletic organization. I don't know any parochial school that does not recruit.
Again Thanks for your thoughtful post and attempt to educate this old dog.
Mike
Mike- same in NJ- for parochials there really are no borders and while 'individual recruiting' is technically not allowed, most think it happens to some extent. With PC though, the rumors were that their staff was contacting Frosh/Sophs at other parochials to entice them to their school. If you ever get bored, Google 'Jabril Peppers Don Bosco PC'- you'll get a crash course all about it.
The best equivalent overall I can think of is SMU; PC has won before but not nearly on the level they did from 2012-2014, and it raised some eyebrows. IMO part of it is probably a bit of 'Johnny-come-lately backlash' that many 'newly strong' teams get from the 'establishment', so to say, but IMO similar to SMU, there seems to be more than meets the eye.
Joe P.
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Boogie
I am not so thin skinned that I can't deal with an opposing view point. Especially given that I am always right. ( sarcasm on). Hearing and voicing opposing viewpoints is most of the reason for posting on other teams boards . Just have to wear asbestos pants.
My apologies for taking so long to respond. Let me say, rather than quote each individual post that responded to me, let me just respond to the whole. Yes, "best case scenario" was not the correct term for 4-5 wins. What I mean to say, and totally airballed, was "most likely scenario".
I see 3 "definite" wins in Howard, New Mexico, and Illinois. I see a "likely" win over Indiana given they are replacing so much. That is 4 very probable wins. I could see Rutgers also beating PSU (and believe me, I'm rooting for that to happen) for 5...BUT I don't think it's in the "likely" category (which for me is around a 70% win probability).
So to me, 4-5 wins is most likely (and to me , "best case" would be beating PSU and either Washington or Minnesota for 6 wins).
Now, that certainly can placate the fans...but again, we're talking about top Jersey area recruits. who might see Michigan have their second 10 win season under Harbaugh, in only his 2nd year, (and possibly more), Top 25 season, top bowl game, with much more to come.
I have NO doubt that Ash has the potential to improve Rutgers' recruiting....but this "fence the garden" stuff with the top recruits that Michigan, and OSU, are looking for, to me is just not realistic.
I see 3 "definite" wins in Howard, New Mexico, and Illinois. I see a "likely" win over Indiana given they are replacing so much. That is 4 very probable wins. I could see Rutgers also beating PSU (and believe me, I'm rooting for that to happen) for 5...BUT I don't think it's in the "likely" category (which for me is around a 70% win probability).
So to me, 4-5 wins is most likely (and to me , "best case" would be beating PSU and either Washington or Minnesota for 6 wins).
Now, that certainly can placate the fans...but again, we're talking about top Jersey area recruits. who might see Michigan have their second 10 win season under Harbaugh, in only his 2nd year, (and possibly more), Top 25 season, top bowl game, with much more to come.
I have NO doubt that Ash has the potential to improve Rutgers' recruiting....but this "fence the garden" stuff with the top recruits that Michigan, and OSU, are looking for, to me is just not realistic.
I dunno; look at how Mike Stoops recruited his first few seasons at Kentucky and they haven't been bowling since the 2010 season. Much of recruiting is relationships and vision; winning is obviously up there as well but then again Larry Coker won a national title and 3 conference titles at Miami and recruits were still able to see through it.
Joe P.
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Once again, your post is reasonable and fair. But, for most RU fans, we know that OSU and likely Michigan will get the ones they want the MOST, BUT they recruit nationally, so we need to keep a fair number of the top players, not all of them. In your opinion do you think Michigan would look to "load up" on NJ recruits, or grab the two to three they want most and look elsewhere after that, (in most years)? To me, this is most likely, and certainly some years might be deeper in NJ, so not looking for a hard and fast rule.
And, we ARE hoping to turn the tides on you guys being able to get your top choices. But, that won't happen yet.
