I'm Not Kidding, Eddie Jordan should be given a 3 year extension now...

[goru7]

Choppin is right just 2 programs. I think your expections for year over year improvement are significantly overblown.

Our deficiencies? Cover every aspect of the college game. The real question is what do we excel at? Right now nothing.

Offensively, we're getting better because Corey is getting better and Grier is having a much better year than I expected. The rest of the team is a mess. The players are usually slow to the pick, hardly penetrate, are poor shooters. We don't really have an organized offense. It turns helter smelter the minute it gets into the hands of Danials, Foreman or Lewis. Our biggest problem on O is no consistent low post offense. Without that, the guards will have consistently difficulty getting their shots open and in rhythm.

Defensively we're a mess. Our weak side defender is almost always late and the rotations, in many cases, aren't just slow but don't come at all. That's why you see so many open jump shots for the opposition on the wings. We're too slow on the perimeter and not disciplined in the interior. Our bigs will foul on almost every fake. It's incredibly frustrating to watch. Some is talent, some is desire, and some is coaching.

I could continue on with our problems but it serves no purpose. This program from a basketball playing perspective is in terrible shape.

The additions next year are mostly unproven recruits or marginal B10 talents. This program, much more than football, needs a complete rebuild. That requires a proven college coach with success who has a plan and a direction for program. At this point in his tenure, as much as I like EJ as a person, it's clear that he's not a program rebuilders. I've never heard espouse on a big picture plan for the future or how he was going to accomplish that goal.

He's a steward not a builder of programs. I think his job here is done. We're ready to move to the next stage of bringing the program back from the Mike Rice debacle.

The next coach will be younger, driven, with a plan for success. I'm looking forward to seeing this program grow. With the right hire, we can be very successful.

I do not disagree with some of what you say especially regarding defense..Maybe Eddie is not sitting people for falling to do it properly or we are just too depleted to do it better..The amount of times, Grier or Daniels do not get back in transition and find their man, ,often leading to open guys and open 3's is frustrating.
However, our offense sets with back doors and layups, along with drive and dish is nicely done except our guys at the 2 or 3 do not consistently hit the three. We average 4.8 threes per game , last in the big ten, but if we hit 3-4 more per game , we would be third to fifth. Considering we do not have Freeman and essentially no guy with low post attack power except DJ, who becomes out of control and doesn't finish, it is remarkable how functional the offense is. Defensively, the three point defense is the worst I have seen, a part due to digging down on the bigs and not recovering in time, or lazily going under screens, instead of over screens, as well as the weak side guard leaving their man in the corner and never getting there on ball reversal. However, we are also at the bottom in rebounding, which leads to more offense opportunities for our opponents and less offensive rebounding from us. This problem is a direct function of the injuries. Shaquille and Freeman will solve the defensive rebounding discrepancy and Freeman will increase the offensive rebounding based on his Juco play.
I do not share your sentiment on Eddie at this point and this roster is not the one to judge him. I do know that our hire and fire 3-5 year plans have not worked for 30 years. I see improvement and potential . You do not. Ok but neither one of us is either right or wrong so this is our opinion.

 

[goru7]

I honestly don't know what Freeman will end up looking like in Big Ten play, because I've mostly seen him against bad teams.

The teams he faced this year, their Sagarin rank, and his points/boards:
48 Clemson - 13 pts, 3 rbs
51 Creighton - 14 pts, 7 rbs
114 Wake Forest - 5 pts, 4 rbs
202 St. Johns - 7 pts, 4 rbs
303 Howard - 17 points, 7 rbs
332 Central Ark - 23 pts, 8 rbs
Div 3 RU-Newark - 13 pts, 4 rbs

8 of our conference games this year against are teams ranked higher than the best team he's faced (Clemson). 7 more games against teams ranked higher than Wake. That's 15 of 18 conference games that are against better teams than all but two of the teams he's faced so far. There's no way to know how well he'll do with that step up in competition. Against the teams he's already faced, he's averaged 13.1 pts and 5.3 rbs... there's no reason to assume against a large step up in competition, he's going to improve his scoring by more than 50% - or even maintain what he's shown so far.

Also for what it's worth, regarding Big Ten teams with 4 double digit scorers:
2014-15: None
2013-14: Wisconsin (10.4-13.6 - Final Four)
2012-13: Michigan (10.7-19.2 - NC runner up), Minnesota (10.0-13.9 - NCAA Rd of 32)
2011-12: None
2010-11: OSU (11.8-17.2 - Sweet Sixteen)
2009-10: Illinois (10.4-15.1 - NIT quarters), OSU (12.7-20.3 - Sweet Sixteen)
2008-09: None
2007-08: Indiana (10.0-21.3 - NCAA Rd of 64)
2006-07: OSU (10.5-15.5 - NC runner up)
2005-06: Michigan (10.9-17.5 - NC runner up), OSU (10.2-12.4 - NCAA Rd of 32), Purdue (10.1-15.2 - five players)

So, in 10 complete seasons... there have been just 11 teams to accomplish having 4 players average in double digits. Those include 3 NC runners up, 1 Final Four, 2 Sweet Sixteens, 2 Rd of 32s, 1 Rd of 64, 1 NIT quarterfinal, and just 1 team that missed the postseason (despite having 5 players in double digits). Only two managed to do it with 4 double digit scorers AND a 20 point scorer.

While I admire your optimism, your expectations and assumptions are entirely out of whack.

Okay what is out of whack regarding our point potentials for our returning starters with Nigel and Mike combining for 10-15 and Shaquille and Diallo combining for 8-10?

 

[goru7]

I honestly don't know what Freeman will end up looking like in Big Ten play, because I've mostly seen him against bad teams.

The teams he faced this year, their Sagarin rank, and his points/boards:
48 Clemson - 13 pts, 3 rbs
51 Creighton - 14 pts, 7 rbs
114 Wake Forest - 5 pts, 4 rbs
202 St. Johns - 7 pts, 4 rbs
303 Howard - 17 points, 7 rbs
332 Central Ark - 23 pts, 8 rbs
Div 3 RU-Newark - 13 pts, 4 rbs

8 of our conference games this year against are teams ranked higher than the best team he's faced (Clemson). 7 more games against teams ranked higher than Wake. That's 15 of 18 conference games that are against better teams than all but two of the teams he's faced so far. There's no way to know how well he'll do with that step up in competition. Against the teams he's already faced, he's averaged 13.1 pts and 5.3 rbs... there's no reason to assume against a large step up in competition, he's going to improve his scoring by more than 50% - or even maintain what he's shown so far.

Also for what it's worth, regarding Big Ten teams with 4 double digit scorers:
2014-15: None
2013-14: Wisconsin (10.4-13.6 - Final Four)
2012-13: Michigan (10.7-19.2 - NC runner up), Minnesota (10.0-13.9 - NCAA Rd of 32)
2011-12: None
2010-11: OSU (11.8-17.2 - Sweet Sixteen)
2009-10: Illinois (10.4-15.1 - NIT quarters), OSU (12.7-20.3 - Sweet Sixteen)
2008-09: None
2007-08: Indiana (10.0-21.3 - NCAA Rd of 64)
2006-07: OSU (10.5-15.5 - NC runner up)
2005-06: Michigan (10.9-17.5 - NC runner up), OSU (10.2-12.4 - NCAA Rd of 32), Purdue (10.1-15.2 - five players)

So, in 10 complete seasons... there have been just 11 teams to accomplish having 4 players average in double digits. Those include 3 NC runners up, 1 Final Four, 2 Sweet Sixteens, 2 Rd of 32s, 1 Rd of 64, 1 NIT quarterfinal, and just 1 team that missed the postseason (despite having 5 players in double digits). Only two managed to do it with 4 double digit scorers AND a 20 point scorer.

While I admire your optimism, your expectations and assumptions are entirely out of whack.

Do you think if healthy Corey and Freeman would not have improved their chemistry to up Freeman's points from 13.5 upwards? Has Corey's assists increased over the last 4 games since Laurent is back?
Listen , I get it ,you think I am being unrealistic, but I look at it as an optimistic view and a glass half full world for us and you look at it pessimistically and glass half empty guy.

 

[MADHAT1]

What do you think Freeman as our primary scorer will average next year if Healthy and if Coreyis our point guard? Do you think he has better hands than any recent big guy we have had?

Balanced scoring is what will be needed most if Freeman can average 12 ppg. 8rpg while handling his defensive assignment , that's all we should hope for him next season and that should be enough to expect.
If Doorson averages just under 10, and rebounds well along with doing a good defensive job at center that will help RU become a better team.
Add in Nigel Johnson proving to be close to what ( the positive posters) he's expected to add and Sanders improving because of the experience he gained this season. RU might be looking like it might have a chance to end the disappointment every RU MBB fan has had when we think of the lack of improvement we see on a yearly bases.
With Laurent probably improving as a soph and Williams improvement in his junior year, Rutgers MBB might give us reason to hope that every year forward we might see an even better program.
Diallo might also help as he gains experience and makes RU's front-court better than it has been.
Foreman developing more will help that happen.
Guard play with Sanders , Johnson and Williams might bring a smile on RU fans faces
and if Laurent plays like he has shown he can on a constant bases, next season might be far better than we think. Especially if the recruits prove better than they look on paper ( offers/ ratings) .

Of course my theory has holes in it and I'm sure that will be pointed out by those who feel doom and gloom is the only future RU fans should expect.
I feel some on this board ( and could be right) feel every optimistic opinion needs to be corrected by making the positive posts look like fantasy rantings that have no place in the RU MBB program's world of negativity.
Never is heard an encouraging word and the sky remains cloudy all day [jumpingsmile]

 

[goru7]

Balanced scoring is what will be needed most if Freeman can average 12 ppg. 8rpg while handling his defensive assignment , that's all we should hope for him next season and that should be enough to expect.
If Doorson averages just under 10, and rebounds well along with doing a good defensive job at center that will help RU become a better team.
Add in Nigel Johnson proving to be close to what ( the positive posters) he's expected to add and Sanders improving because of the experience he gained this season. RU might be looking like it might have a chance to end the disappointment every RU MBB fan has had when we think of the lack of improvement we see on a yearly bases.
With Laurent probably improving as a soph and Williams improvement in his junior year, Rutgers MBB might give us reason to hope that every year forward we might see an even better program.
Diallo might also help as he gains experience and makes RU's front-court better than it has been.
Foreman developing more will help that happen.
Guard play with Sanders , Johnson and Williams might bring a smile on RU fans faces
and if Laurent plays like he has shown he can on a constant bases, next season might be far better than we think. Especially if the recruits prove better than they look on paper ( offers/ ratings) .

Of course my theory has holes in it and I'm sure that will be pointed out by those who feel doom and gloom is the only future RU fans should expect.
I feel some on this board ( and could be right) feel every optimistic opinion needs to be corrected by making the positive posts look like fantasy rantings that have no place in the RU MBB program's world of negativity.
Never is heard an encouraging word and the sky remains cloudy all day [jumpingsmile]

Well stated!!!
Another huge point that Sae and Choppin are not acknowledging is that Corey is the best point guard we have had in at least 10-15 years. He will make everybody better and get Laurent and Freeman and Doorson easy shots close to the basket.. Now our history of missing easy layups ( Indiana game) is there but they will have plenty of chances. We have been pathetic at feeding the post the last 5-6 years , even Mack did not feed Jack well !!

 

[bac2therac]

After my recent post, I just went to Big 10 statistics and no one averages 20 a game, but Hill and Nunn average 19.6 and 16.2, Uthoff and Jok 18.6 and 17.1, Yogi Farrell 19.2, Nigel Hayes18.4, Brandon Taylor 16.4 , Diamond stone and Melo Trimble at 14.9 and 14.7 and our Corey Sanders at 17 per game. The player in the role most like what Freeman's role will be is Hill at Illinois, their go to best player down low. Melo and Stone's averages of almost 15 per game is what I would expect from Corey and Freeman. However Corey will score likely less than 17 per night and Freeman off Corey's assists will pick up the extra few points .. Another comparison is Yogi at 19.2 and Thomas Bryant at 12.2. But unlike Maryland or Indiana Who each have 5 guys who can score and do not rely on any one guy to score more, we will be relying on Freeman to be our leading scorer, especially down low which will get him more shot attempts and likely a few more points.
Also remember that Iowa, Maryland and Purdue have blown out people so their starters have not played full games whereas Freeman will be playing almost the whole game because I doubt we will be blowing out anybody but I fully expect a lot of games to be undecided with 4 minutes to go.
Look what happened in the Iowa game, one of our better efforts losing 90-76. Peter Jok went for 29 and Jarod Uthoff 20 because they played the whole game. Freeman will be playing almost 35-40 minutes next year. It is more likely than not that Freeman will average 20 points per game and Corey averages less with more options next year.

1. Malcolm Hill, Illinois 23 134 27 144 439 19.1
2. Jarrod Uthoff, Iowa 22 144 46 71 405 18.4
Denzel Valentine, Michigan State 18 113 57 48 331 18.4
4. Kevin Yogi Ferrell, Indiana 23 133 51 84 401 17.4
5. Nigel Hayes, Wisconsin 23 115 24 140 394 17.1
6. Andrew White III, Nebraska 23 135 60 62 392 17.0
7. Brandon Taylor, Penn State 23 135 29 75 374 16.3
8. Shavon Shields, Nebraska 23 132 16 79 359 15.6
9. Corey Sanders, Rutgers 21 110 33 68 321 15.3
10. Peter Jok, Iowa 21 110 50 47 317 15.1
11. Bryant McIntosh, Northwestern 24 129 37 60 355 14.8
Melo Trimble, Maryland 23 108 41 83 340 14.8
Tre Demps, Northwestern 24 136 45 37 354 14.8
14. A.J. Hammons, Purdue 21 123 4 51 301 14.3
15. Shep Garner, Penn State 23 98 48 70 314 13.7
16. Nate Mason, Minnesota 23 106 33 64 309 13.4
Bryn Forbes, Michigan State 22 97 61 40 295 13.4
Bronson Koenig, Wisconsin 23 104 53 47 308 13.4
19. Marc Loving, Ohio State 24 103 35 70 311 13.0
Diamond Stone, Maryland 23 109 0 80 298 13.0
Troy Williams, Indiana 23 106 13 73 298 13.0

 

[SAE96]

I do not disagree with some of what you say especially regarding defense..Maybe Eddie is not sitting people for falling to do it properly or we are just too depleted to do it better..The amount of times, Grier or Daniels do not get back in transition and find their man, ,often leading to open guys and open 3's is frustrating.
However, our offense sets with back doors and layups, along with drive and dish is nicely done except our guys at the 2 or 3 do not consistently hit the three. We average 4.8 threes per game , last in the big ten, but if we hit 3-4 more per game , we would be third to fifth. Considering we do not have Freeman and essentially no guy with low post attack power except DJ, who becomes out of control and doesn't finish, it is remarkable how functional the offense is. Defensively, the three point defense is the worst I have seen, a part due to digging down on the bigs and not recovering in time, or lazily going under screens, instead of over screens, as well as the weak side guard leaving their man in the corner and never getting there on ball reversal. However, we are also at the bottom in rebounding, which leads to more offense opportunities for our opponents and less offensive rebounding from us. This problem is a direct function of the injuries. Shaquille and Freeman will solve the defensive rebounding discrepancy and Freeman will increase the offensive rebounding based on his Juco play.
I do not share your sentiment on Eddie at this point and this roster is not the one to judge him. I do know that our hire and fire 3-5 year plans have not worked for 30 years. I see improvement and potential . You do not. Ok but neither one of us is either right or wrong so this is our opinion.

Goru,

I respect your opinion and the civil manner with which you expressed it today. Can you please tell me what EJ's long term plan is concerning the program and how does he intend to get us there?

Coach Ash has been here for a minute and I have a good idea what his answers would be. Coach Jordon has been here for three years and I still have no idea in which direction he's trying to take the program, his recruiting strategy, strategy to change the culture, defensive philosophy. The only thing I can tell you is what he would like to do on offense. 3 years and we don't have a direction, a moribund fan base, and a handful of posters with unreasonably optimistic expections that don't help the program.

If Eddy was retained and he won 10+ games with a couple of wins again top half Big 10 teams and brought in 2 top 100 recruits, I'd say that's progress. I wouldn't be thrilled, but I wouldn't deny the progress. Here we are 3 years into his tenure and I see no progress, a moribund fan base, no wins in conference, and a lower tier recruiting class.

All Choppin has done, and I thank him, is show that an exceptionally low probability exists that just one of your optimistic pronouncements will come true, let alone all of them.

 

[RUChoppin]

Do you think if healthy Corey and Freeman would not have improved their chemistry to up Freeman's points from 13.5 upwards? Has Corey's assists increased over the last 4 games since Laurent is back?
Listen , I get it ,you think I am being unrealistic, but I look at it as an optimistic view and a glass half full world for us and you look at it pessimistically and glass half empty guy.

It's more a "this cup will hold so much water" vs. "I have so much water that a cup can't contain it. I'll need a bucket - or better yet, I should build a pool".

Freeman may be an excellent player, top 10 in the conference, and still not approach 20 points a game. Based on what we've seen so far, he definitely has a strong skillset - but we haven't seen him bang against Big Ten defenses down low, and we haven't seen Big Ten coaches scheme against him. To think in his first year in the league (which next year will be), that he'll suddenly be a better scorer than every other player is just setting the bar unrealistically high.

As far as double digit scorers, the Big Ten has generally had about 30-32 per year this past decade across 12-14 teams. That's usually 2 per team, with a few of the better teams having three... and rare teams having 4 (11 out of 137 possibilities, or about 8% of the time). Next year, that will very likely be Freeman and Sanders - and they'll probably fall out somewhere in the 12-15 range, would be my guess. If Laurent can elevate to average double digits, Freeman and Sanders might both have slightly less as the ball is distributed around a bit more. I don't see us averaging more than maybe 74 per game (at the top end), which would put us mid-pack in the conference (and is really just 6 more points than this year).

The bigger question is on defense, where we currently give up 79 points per game. How do we get that down below 70? Or better yet, down below 68 or so, to get to mid-pack in the conference.

Also keep in mind that this year there has been very little built in terms of offensive or defensive philosophy, as the team is so limited that it can't even run 5 on 5 in practice. So, most of the team-level practice won't be able to start until our bigs are healthy - which may be stunting the development of guys like Foreman, who have no one to practice against (with Lewis even limited by injury).

Underneath, we lose our most experienced player in Lewis. The expectation is that Doorson/Diallo will step into the five... but they will need some time to develop. Doorson saw time last year, but only averaged 10 min per game... with a game high of 4 pts. He averaged 5.5 fouls over 40 minutes. This year before he went out, Diallo was averaging 3.8 pts in 15 min... but a whopping 7.7 fouls per 40 min. How quickly can they learn to put in significant minutes without fouling - while still playing strong defense? While also contributing on offense?

At the forward spot, we'll see an immediate step up in Freeman... and hopefully Foreman will begin to progress, because I believe he can have a high upside. Laurent should also progress, and we'll see what Thiam brings to the table.

At shooting guard, hopefully Williams continues to develop, though he'll likely see his minutes drop off a bit as more guys are healthy and we have a more realistic rotation. Johnson saw 18 min per game with KState last year, but only averaged 5.2 points. If you were to blend Williams and Johnson together for 40 minutes, you'd expect a little better than 14 ppg between the two of them based on their averages in their most recent season of playing.

I could see the season shaking out like:
Freeman 15
Sanders 13
Laurent 9
Williams/Johnson 14
Diallo/Doorson 10
Other 10-12

 

[SAE96]

It's more a "this cup will hold so much water" vs. "I have so much water that a cup can't contain it. I'll need a bucket - or better yet, I should build a pool".

Freeman may be an excellent player, top 10 in the conference, and still not approach 20 points a game. Based on what we've seen so far, he definitely has a strong skillset - but we haven't seen him bang against Big Ten defenses down low, and we haven't seen Big Ten coaches scheme against him. To think in his first year in the league (which next year will be), that he'll suddenly be a better scorer than every other player is just setting the bar unrealistically high.

As far as double digit scorers, the Big Ten has generally had about 30-32 per year this past decade across 12-14 teams. That's usually 2 per team, with a few of the better teams having three... and rare teams having 4 (11 out of 137 possibilities, or about 8% of the time). Next year, that will very likely be Freeman and Sanders - and they'll probably fall out somewhere in the 12-15 range, would be my guess. If Laurent can elevate to average double digits, Freeman and Sanders might both have slightly less as the ball is distributed around a bit more. I don't see us averaging more than maybe 74 per game (at the top end), which would put us mid-pack in the conference (and is really just 6 more points than this year).

The bigger question is on defense, where we currently give up 79 points per game. How do we get that down below 70? Or better yet, down below 68 or so, to get to mid-pack in the conference.

Also keep in mind that this year there has been very little built in terms of offensive or defensive philosophy, as the team is so limited that it can't even run 5 on 5 in practice. So, most of the team-level practice won't be able to start until our bigs are healthy - which may be stunting the development of guys like Foreman, who have no one to practice against (with Lewis even limited by injury).

Underneath, we lose our most experienced player in Lewis. The expectation is that Doorson/Diallo will step into the five... but they will need some time to develop. Doorson saw time last year, but only averaged 10 min per game... with a game high of 4 pts. He averaged 5.5 fouls over 40 minutes. This year before he went out, Diallo was averaging 3.8 pts in 15 min... but a whopping 7.7 fouls per 40 min. How quickly can they learn to put in significant minutes without fouling - while still playing strong defense? While also contributing on offense?

At the forward spot, we'll see an immediate step up in Freeman... and hopefully Foreman will begin to progress, because I believe he can have a high upside. Laurent should also progress, and we'll see what Thiam brings to the table.

At shooting guard, hopefully Williams continues to develop, though he'll likely see his minutes drop off a bit as more guys are healthy and we have a more realistic rotation. Johnson saw 18 min per game with KState last year, but only averaged 5.2 points. If you were to blend Williams and Johnson together for 40 minutes, you'd expect a little better than 14 ppg between the two of them based on their averages in their most recent season of playing.

I could see the season shaking out like:
Freeman 15
Sanders 13
Laurent 9
Williams/Johnson 14
Diallo/Doorson 10
Other 10-12

Think your slightly more optimistic on Freeman than I am, especially coming off two injury plagued years and no proven outside threat for next year.

The rest of your predictions seem very plausible.

 

[goru7]

It's more a "this cup will hold so much water" vs. "I have so much water that a cup can't contain it. I'll need a bucket - or better yet, I should build a pool".

Freeman may be an excellent player, top 10 in the conference, and still not approach 20 points a game. Based on what we've seen so far, he definitely has a strong skillset - but we haven't seen him bang against Big Ten defenses down low, and we haven't seen Big Ten coaches scheme against him. To think in his first year in the league (which next year will be), that he'll suddenly be a better scorer than every other player is just setting the bar unrealistically high.

As far as double digit scorers, the Big Ten has generally had about 30-32 per year this past decade across 12-14 teams. That's usually 2 per team, with a few of the better teams having three... and rare teams having 4 (11 out of 137 possibilities, or about 8% of the time). Next year, that will very likely be Freeman and Sanders - and they'll probably fall out somewhere in the 12-15 range, would be my guess. If Laurent can elevate to average double digits, Freeman and Sanders might both have slightly less as the ball is distributed around a bit more. I don't see us averaging more than maybe 74 per game (at the top end), which would put us mid-pack in the conference (and is really just 6 more points than this year).

The bigger question is on defense, where we currently give up 79 points per game. How do we get that down below 70? Or better yet, down below 68 or so, to get to mid-pack in the conference.

Also keep in mind that this year there has been very little built in terms of offensive or defensive philosophy, as the team is so limited that it can't even run 5 on 5 in practice. So, most of the team-level practice won't be able to start until our bigs are healthy - which may be stunting the development of guys like Foreman, who have no one to practice against (with Lewis even limited by injury).

Underneath, we lose our most experienced player in Lewis. The expectation is that Doorson/Diallo will step into the five... but they will need some time to develop. Doorson saw time last year, but only averaged 10 min per game... with a game high of 4 pts. He averaged 5.5 fouls over 40 minutes. This year before he went out, Diallo was averaging 3.8 pts in 15 min... but a whopping 7.7 fouls per 40 min. How quickly can they learn to put in significant minutes without fouling - while still playing strong defense? While also contributing on offense?

At the forward spot, we'll see an immediate step up in Freeman... and hopefully Foreman will begin to progress, because I believe he can have a high upside. Laurent should also progress, and we'll see what Thiam brings to the table.

At shooting guard, hopefully Williams continues to develop, though he'll likely see his minutes drop off a bit as more guys are healthy and we have a more realistic rotation. Johnson saw 18 min per game with KState last year, but only averaged 5.2 points. If you were to blend Williams and Johnson together for 40 minutes, you'd expect a little better than 14 ppg between the two of them based on their averages in their most recent season of playing.

I could see the season shaking out like:
Freeman 15
Sanders 13
Laurent 9
Williams/Johnson 14
Diallo/Doorson 10
Other 10-12

Nice post. We are not far off in the individual point projections, but I expect Freeman and Laurent and Doorson to benefit from Corey!! Also remember big men make tremendous progress as they older. Although Shaquille only had afew points, he did show some flashes on a pick and roll to benefit from Corey! If he could be taught a drop step , O' Koren's responsibility, I think he improves every year because you cannot teach height.
Defensively, is where we have more agreement in the lack of philosophy. Eddie was a tenacious defender, so it is mind boggling he doesn't make his guards pressure the point to interrupt their sets. I also cannot believe how lazy we aregoing under screens and repeatedly allowing open 3's. I wonder with our frontline and rim protectors back whether he will demand Corey! Nigel and Mike to pressure the ball and fight over screens

 

[Mr Magoo]

Check out the recruits coming in next year.

It's going to take a lot more than those Freeman, Sanders and Laurent to get this turned around. Or haven't you been paying attention?

Exactly. He's brought in 1 B1G player so far. Freeman may be also and Laurent looks promising of late. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, we need 3 of these players per year, not 3 in 3 years. And by the way, Zero for next year, so we are trending downwards...and that's from the bottom.

 

[goru7]

Goru,

I respect your opinion and the civil manner with which you expressed it today. Can you please tell me what EJ's long term plan is concerning the program and how does he intend to get us there?

Coach Ash has been here for a minute and I have a good idea what his answers would be. Coach Jordon has been here for three years and I still have no idea in which direction he's trying to take the program, his recruiting strategy, strategy to change the culture, defensive philosophy. The only thing I can tell you is what he would like to do on offense. 3 years and we don't have a direction, a moribund fan base, and a handful of posters with unreasonably optimistic expections that don't help the program.

If Eddy was retained and he won 10+ games with a couple of wins again top half Big 10 teams and brought in 2 top 100 recruits, I'd say that's progress. I wouldn't be thrilled, but I wouldn't deny the progress. Here we are 3 years into his tenure and I see no progress, a moribund fan base, no wins in conference, and a lower tier recruiting class.

All Choppin has done, and I thank him, is show that an exceptionally low probability exists that just one of your optimistic pronouncements will come true, let alone all of them.

Sae, I think Eddie's plan is to recruit length and build around a point guard. How he got Corey is still amazing ! His failure in recruiting and maybe philosophy is the lack of three point shooters and consistency . We are dead last at 4.8 per game , which is atrocious. We need to make 8 per game to have a chance or defend it better. We are also last in defending the three. As bad as the Michigan State game was, giving up 17 three's was ridiculous. In the first half we made a nice comeback to down 7 at 32-25 after Forbes already hit 4 of his 6. But the lack of rebounding and extra possessions by State in the second half with kick outs to open shooters was too much for our depleted roster. Eddie with a full roster and rim protectors has to fix the defense first!!!

 

[RUChoppin]

Eddie was a tenacious defender, so it is mind boggling he doesn't make his guards pressure the point to interrupt their sets. I also cannot believe how lazy we aregoing under screens and repeatedly allowing open 3's. I wonder with our frontline and rim protectors back whether he will demand Corey! Nigel and Mike to pressure the ball and fight over screens

I think a lot of it comes down to depth. You can't fight through every screen and still expect to play 36+ minutes as a freshman guard... and still have your legs at the end of the game to be a scoring threat. You also can't overcommit for the steal up front if you don't have defenders behind you to back you up. We're protecting our bigs a bit, I think, from picking up fouls.

Still, this is going to be largely a lost year in defensive development - and, to some extent, offensive development (especially for the bigs). I'm still skeptical of the class we're bringing in next year - and of what ships will be available for 2017.

 

[goru7]

I think a lot of it comes down to depth. You can't fight through every screen and still expect to play 36+ minutes as a freshman guard... and still have your legs at the end of the game to be a scoring threat. You also can't overcommit for the steal up front if you don't have defenders behind you to back you up. We're protecting our bigs a bit, I think, from picking up fouls.

Still, this is going to be largely a lost year in defensive development - and, to some extent, offensive development (especially for the bigs). I'm still skeptical of the class we're bringing in next year - and of what ships will be available for 2017.

Good point about minutes played by deplete roster forces them to give up tight defense.
Are u watching game. We are up 6 going to the line and should be up double digits if we defend the damn 3 and defend the pick and roll properly.

 

[RUChoppin]

Good point about minutes played by deplete roster forces them to give up tight defense.
Are u watching game. We are up 6 going to the line and should be up double digits if we defend the damn 3 and defend the pick and roll properly.

My kids are sick and watching Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. Didn't even realize the game was on. From the box score right now, it looks like nobody other than Corey (and maybe Foreman?) realized that either.

 

[Double46RU]

I agree maybe if we extend him he could reach 50 straight conference losses, only 23 to go

 

[ruman]

My kids are sick and watching Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. Didn't even realize the game was on. From the box score right now, it looks like nobody other than Corey (and maybe Foreman?) realized that either.

That sounds like you were watching the game

 

[KnightsB10]

His teams show no improvement. They are not fundamentally sound. Injuries are part of the game. Both Jack and Mack regressed under Eddie. He has not signed one New Jersey kid. The RAC is a ghost town. We are a national embarrassment. What else do you need to hear?

 

[B1GNJHoops]

And Rutgers administration should not be criticized for giving Jordan "only three years". It should be applauded for wanting to achieve MORE in three years.

 

[MADHAT1]

His teams show no improvement. They are not fundamentally sound. Injuries are part of the game. Both Jack and Mack regressed under Eddie. He has not signed one New Jersey kid. The RAC is a ghost town. We are a national embarrassment. What else do you need to hear?

Kareem played better for Jordan as a junior and senior than he did for Rice, freshman & Soph years.
Myles' play was fairly constant under both and was honorable mention Big 10 in his senior year under Eddie.
Bash Jordan all you want, but don't try to make it look like Mack and Jack regressed from their Rice days.

 

[MADHAT1]

And Rutgers administration should not be criticized for giving Jordan "only three years". It should be applauded for wanting to achieve MORE in three years.

If there willing to pay what it takes to bring in a quality candidate, no problem from where I stand.
But if it's an on the cheap gamble hire, might be better to bite the bullet for another year and give Eddie his 4th year instead of buying him out.

Many have said Hobbs will pay the price to let Jordan go, only thing I fear is after letting Jordan go RU might be stuck with a contract that ties them to a HC that can't make RU much better and three years down the road have to hire on the cheap again after buying that one out of his last two years.

 

[RUChoppin]

Kareem played better for Jordan as a junior and senior than he did for Rice, freshman & Soph years.
Myles' play was fairly constant under both and was honorable mention Big 10 in his senior year under Eddie.
Bash Jordan all you want, but don't try to make it look like Mack and Jack regressed from their Rice days.

Statistically, Mack and Jack improved from their soph to junior seasons, but regressed in nearly every category as a senior. That may have something to do with going from the Big East as sophomores to the AAC as juniors to the Big Ten as seniors, though... so, hard to tell what level of development they really had.

 

[LotusAggressor]

Balanced scoring is what will be needed most if Freeman can average 12 ppg. 8rpg while handling his defensive assignment , that's all we should hope for him next season and that should be enough to expect.
If Doorson averages just under 10, and rebounds well along with doing a good defensive job at center that will help RU become a better team.
Add in Nigel Johnson proving to be close to what ( the positive posters) he's expected to add and Sanders improving because of the experience he gained this season. RU might be looking like it might have a chance to end the disappointment every RU MBB fan has had when we think of the lack of improvement we see on a yearly bases.
With Laurent probably improving as a soph and Williams improvement in his junior year, Rutgers MBB might give us reason to hope that every year forward we might see an even better program.
Diallo might also help as he gains experience and makes RU's front-court better than it has been.
Foreman developing more will help that happen.
Guard play with Sanders , Johnson and Williams might bring a smile on RU fans faces
and if Laurent plays like he has shown he can on a constant bases, next season might be far better than we think. Especially if the recruits prove better than they look on paper ( offers/ ratings) .

Of course my theory has holes in it and I'm sure that will be pointed out by those who feel doom and gloom is the only future RU fans should expect.
I feel some on this board ( and could be right) feel every optimistic opinion needs to be corrected by making the positive posts look like fantasy rantings that have no place in the RU MBB program's world of negativity.
Never is heard an encouraging word and the sky remains cloudy all day [jumpingsmile]

What is this player development you speak of? I haven't seen that here in 3 decades.

 

[scarletschuyler]

I just don't get it. When Eddie was signed, I thought great news: he played on the greatest team in Rutgers history, and has coached in the NBA. What's not to like?
26 conference losses later, I'm banging my head against the wall. is Eddie the worst coach in the Big Ten? No way, and yet.................26 in a row. Good Grief!

 

[Fuddrutgers]

I thought Eddie's NBA experience would give him clout in the recruiting game and would make up for any shortcomings in his coaching ability. I honestly thought that highly rated kids would come flocking to him, but I was very wrong.

 

[goru7]

Statistically, Mack and Jack improved from their soph to junior seasons, but regressed in nearly every category as a senior. That may have something to do with going from the Big East as sophomores to the AAC as juniors to the Big Ten as seniors, though... so, hard to tell what level of development they really had.

Jack was unstoppable as a low post option his junior year. He played defense, blocked shots and was a rim protector. Some scout or NBA type said he has to expand his game , shoot the 3, and take people one on one. He forgot the rest of his game, as his rebounds, blocked shots, defense declined and on defense he often got lost in transition defense that killed us. He got some bad advice.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Jack was unstoppable as a low post option his junior year. He played defense, blocked shots and was a rim protector. Some scout or NBA type said he has to expand his game , shoot the 3, and take people one on one. He forgot the rest of his game, as his rebounds, blocked shots, defense declined and on defense he often got lost in transition defense that killed us. He got some bad advice.

And EJ, being an experienced NBA professional, did nothing and watched Jack screw up his game. Is that what you are trying to say? That EJ is breathtakingly incompetent.

 

[Ray6232010]

Keep Eddie. Stop saying Corey will leave. There is no indication of that. He is developing well under a former NBA point guard and coach.

This is what Eddie Jordan can do when he gets his hands on a talented player

 

[TDIrish27]

His job is to build a winning basketball Program not develop 1 kid.

 

[T2Kplus10]

His job is to build a winning basketball Program not develop 1 kid.

Bingo, but the EJ apologists are trying to grab on to anything they can find.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Kareem played better for Jordan as a junior and senior than he did for Rice, freshman & Soph years.
Myles' play was fairly constant under both and was honorable mention Big 10 in his senior year under Eddie.
Bash Jordan all you want, but don't try to make it look like Mack and Jack regressed from their Rice days.

They regressed as basketball players. Don't cite statistics. Their defense was off the charts bad under Jordan.

 

[RUChoppin]

Jack was unstoppable as a low post option his junior year. He played defense, blocked shots and was a rim protector. Some scout or NBA type said he has to expand his game , shoot the 3, and take people one on one. He forgot the rest of his game, as his rebounds, blocked shots, defense declined and on defense he often got lost in transition defense that killed us. He got some bad advice.

Jack was playing against the AAC as a junior. He also finally saw an increase in minutes - from 18.2 per game to 29.2 per game. His FG% only increased from 46% to 50%... but he ended up having fewer rbs per minute, fewer blocks per minute, and more turnovers per minute. The areas of his game that stepped up from his sophomore to junior years were his scoring (about 56% increase in points per minute) and his fouling (25% reduction in fouls per minute). And all of that was against a weaker schedule than the prior year.

As a senior, he moved into the Big Ten. His FG% dropped (2P% went from .500 to .444, overall from .501 to .427), his FT attempted and FT% dropped off, his rbs/blks/pts per minute all dropped off, and his turnovers went up. He continued to improve his fouls per minute, and his steals and assists per minute went up slightly. This was all against a steeper level of competition, but as you said - he sort of forgot his game. That doesn't shine a great light on his coaching.

As for Mack...

His minutes per game were fairly consistent, though he did see a small uptick as a senior. In the AAC as a junior, he saw slight improvement... assists and points per minute improved, as did FT%. But he saw declines in FG%, 3P%, turnovers, and fouls per minute. As a senior, most "per minute" stats went down... FG attempted, FG%, 3P%, FT attempted, FT%, assists, steals, blocks, and points. He did improve in rebounding, turnovers, and fouls. Again, that was all against tougher competition than his junior year.

It's hard to say either of them really "progressed" in their game... but they also didn't have a ton of support as seniors, and defenses were allowed to focus on them.

 

[goru7]

Jack was playing against the AAC as a junior. He also finally saw an increase in minutes - from 18.2 per game to 29.2 per game. His FG% only increased from 46% to 50%... but he ended up having fewer rbs per minute, fewer blocks per minute, and more turnovers per minute. The areas of his game that stepped up from his sophomore to junior years were his scoring (about 56% increase in points per minute) and his fouling (25% reduction in fouls per minute). And all of that was against a weaker schedule than the prior year.

As a senior, he moved into the Big Ten. His FG% dropped (2P% went from .500 to .444, overall from .501 to .427), his FT attempted and FT% dropped off, his rbs/blks/pts per minute all dropped off, and his turnovers went up. He continued to improve his fouls per minute, and his steals and assists per minute went up slightly. This was all against a steeper level of competition, but as you said - he sort of forgot his game. That doesn't shine a great light on his coaching.

As for Mack...

His minutes per game were fairly consistent, though he did see a small uptick as a senior. In the AAC as a junior, he saw slight improvement... assists and points per minute improved, as did FT%. But he saw declines in FG%, 3P%, turnovers, and fouls per minute. As a senior, most "per minute" stats went down... FG attempted, FG%, 3P%, FT attempted, FT%, assists, steals, blocks, and points. He did improve in rebounding, turnovers, and fouls. Again, that was all against tougher competition than his junior year.

It's hard to say either of them really "progressed" in their game... but they also didn't have a ton of support as seniors, and defenses were allowed to focus on them.

Choppin, Kadeem as a junior was literally unstoppable down on the block, developing a number of moves, drop steps, reverses. I know it was for only for a few games his senior year, but in the Wisconsin game(I know Kaminsky did not play) he was unstoppable again down on the block. Hayes and Decker tried to play defense but he torched them. But at 6'9 he was not doing that in the NBA and for worse we never saw that dominant guy again. If we did the losing streak , the rallying cry for the fire Eddie crowd, would never have happened. I guess some blame goes to Eddie but more so for the lack of defensive focus and guarding the opponent, which is why we continued to lose. This coupled with the sulking of Etou for Mack and Jack dominating the ball, was our downfall. Inretrospect, no team with Mack, Jack,orEtou should lose 15 straight and it happened because we didn't play defense . I cannot judge this team with the depleted roster but it appears at least on the surface, Eddie believes if the team executes properly on offense we will out score teams and win. He has been wrong. It drives Greene nuts because the way the guards defend and the failure of denial defense. Even with this depleted roster it is not emphasized this year. Look at Maryland and Indiana with their awesome offensive firepower this year, especially Indiana who lost some early games because they did Not play defense but for the last 10 games they have turned it up and won most of their games, most by a lot of points.. Maryland has been defending all year and has those 5 NBA guys as starters and that is why a lot of experts think they have a good shot to win the title.
Eddie is now recruiting length and can only hope he changes the way his team plays defense with a full roster. If he does we have a good shot at 500 in the Big 10 next year!!

 

[RUChoppin]

Choppin, Kadeem as a junior was literally unstoppable down on the block, developing a number of moves, drop steps, reverses.

Literally unstoppable... yet only scoring 14.3 per game. Those two statements don't work together. Kadeem wasn't even Top 10 in the AAC that year in scoring - and didn't come close to approaching the Top 100 nationally. In our 20 losses, he averaged 12.7 ppg... in our 12 wins, he averaged 17.1 ppg. He hit 20 points just 4 times all year... Corey Sanders has done it 7 times so far this season against tougher competition.

Douby was literally unstoppable in 2005-06 with 25.4 points per game against double and triple teams every night. I wouldn't use those words to describe Jack's play.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

.500 for some is too easy a goal to reach. Ohio has us winning 18 games and going to the Dance. We're going to go from 0 BIG wins to at least 7(incredibly conservative) because a handful of marginal recruits and two bigmen, who play like stiffs, return.

Ohio who?

Do me a favor, don't use my name in a post and make sh!t up.

 

[RutgersYay]

In Eddie's last post game press conference, even he said he should have done more to help Kadeem progress as a player. And after senior night, both Mack and Jack were very complimentary of Mike Rice but didn't say much about Eddie.

Speaks volumes.

 

[goru7]

In Eddie's last post game press conference, even he said he should have done more to help Kadeem progress as a player. And after senior night, both Mack and Jack were very complimentary of Mike Rice but didn't say much about Eddie.

Speaks volumes.

You are miss reading his words. Progress as a college player and progress to be an Nba player are 2 different things. If Jack was not playing the wing his senior year and shooting three's to expand his range for the NBA we would have been better. If Eddie just left him on the block or ran a different offense it would have helped us offensively because Jack would have better going against college kids down low.
Eddie 's failure with Jack is a similar failure defensively with this team and last year's team. Kadeem was guarding a wing , would be lost in transition , giving up open 3's that led to a lot of the Losing . Eddie should have kept him down low to guard the paint, block shots and rebound and not chase 3 wings around.

 

[goru7]

Literally unstoppable... yet only scoring 14.3 per game. Those two statements don't work together. Kadeem wasn't even Top 10 in the AAC that year in scoring - and didn't come close to approaching the Top 100 nationally. In our 20 losses, he averaged 12.7 ppg... in our 12 wins, he averaged 17.1 ppg. He hit 20 points just 4 times all year... Corey Sanders has done it 7 times so far this season against tougher competition.

Douby was literally unstoppable in 2005-06 with 25.4 points per game against double and triple teams every night. I wouldn't use those words to describe Jack's play.

Sanders has nobody else to score once Freeman went down. Jack had Mack to take an equal amount if not greater amount of shots. So the comparison to Sanders is not apples to apples.
Although I agree Douby was unstoppable and a First Team all Big East caliber player and one of the best shooters in our history , Jack was one out best low post players since Rashid Kent and Brent Dabbs. Also , if you watched the Big 10 telecasts last year, the analyst Shane Morris, a former Big man who played in the conference would rave about Kadeem's talent and was constantly talking about containing Kadeem was on every Big 10 coaches scouting report.
As you so thoroughly researched it is hard to average 20 points a game in the Big 10 but when Kadeem was down on the block not many opponents stopped him.

 

[RUChoppin]

Sanders has nobody else to score once Freeman went down. Jack had Mack to take an equal amount if not greater amount of shots. So the comparison to Sanders is not apples to apples.
Although I agree Douby was unstoppable and a First Team all Big East caliber player and one of the best shooters in our history , Jack was one out best low post players since Rashid Kent and Brent Dabbs. Also , if you watched the Big 10 telecasts last year, the analyst Shane Morris, a former Big man who played in the conference would rave about Kadeem's talent and was constantly talking about containing Kadeem was on every Big 10 coaches scouting report.
As you so thoroughly researched it is hard to average 20 points a game in the Big 10 but when Kadeem was down on the block not many opponents stopped him.

Yes... containing Jack was on every scouting report, and they largely accomplished that. The AAC teams largely did, too. That's not unstoppable, that's containable.

And I wasn't talking about averaging 20 points per game. He didn't even average 15. He only *scored* 20 or more four times that year (two of those were against a bad USF team, and one against a terrible Florida A&M team).

You have a much more favorable memory of Jack's junior year than his performance warranted.

 

[RutgersYay]

You are miss reading his words. Progress as a college player and progress to be an Nba player are 2 different things. If Jack was not playing the wing his senior year and shooting three's to expand his range for the NBA we would have been better. If Eddie just left him on the block or ran a different offense it would have helped us offensively because Jack would have better going against college kids down low.
Eddie 's failure with Jack is a similar failure defensively with this team and last year's team. Kadeem was guarding a wing , would be lost in transition , giving up open 3's that led to a lot of the Losing . Eddie should have kept him down low to guard the paint, block shots and rebound and not chase 3 wings around.

Wait. So you're saying Eddie failed with Kadeem?

And he failed with defending the three both last year and with his players this year?

Sounds like a lot of failing.