Losing Cliff cost us the NCAA Tournament

[RUChoppin]

The main concern with Lathan is that it appears he can't shoot (for now?)
1/8 from 3 (13%)
6/34 from outside the paint/inside the 3pt line (17%)

This leads to a couple issues for next year:

1. He can't be moved out of the post (PF/Wing) because he isn't a scoring or playmaking threat.
He's a non threat away from the basket.

2. If he's your center, then he isn't the defensive presence it appears HC Pike needs for his defense (why can't a defensive mind like Pike adjust if needed?).

3. If a better defensive center is brought in, wouldn't that player likely start and play most minutes? Likely can't play them together - see #1.

Either HC Pike needs to figure out a defensive scheme that accommodates Lathan or Lathan will primarily be a bench player because of defensive limitations.

Or, Sommerville needs to improve defensively, as so many freshman bigs have done since time immemorial.

Sommerville is 41.0% on twos away from the rim (34/83) per bart.... if he's 6/34 outside the paint per your source, that means he's 28/49 (57%) in the painted area away from the rim, in additional to being 69.6% (48/69) at the rim or on dunks.

Decision making is something he needs to work on in the offseason - instead of pulling up from 15 feet, taking a dribble or two toward the rim, to either get a closer shot or pick up a foul (where he's 86% from the FT line).

Sommerville can be that athletic, below-the-rim big like OSU tends to use.

 

[seansherm]

Or, Sommerville needs to improve defensively, as so many freshman bigs have done since time immemorial.

Sommerville is 41.0% on twos away from the rim (34/83) per bart.... if he's 6/34 outside the paint per your source, that means he's 28/49 (57%) in the painted area away from the rim, in additional to being 69.6% (48/69) at the rim or on dunks.

Decision making is something he needs to work on in the offseason - instead of pulling up from 15 feet, taking a dribble or two toward the rim, to either get a closer shot or pick up a foul (where he's 86% from the FT line).

Sommerville can be that athletic, below-the-rim big like OSU tends to use.

He'd need to get stronger and much smarter defensively. I'm interested to see how he develops, having to have depended on him so much this year really hurt.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

At least Lathan gives us some us offense, and can be counted on for roughly 10 pts per game, and will likely be our #1 option at the 5, unless he leaves. Sure we will add other players, but they will be complementary. We’ll have to work with what we have.

The problem is we need to get better at D. Do you disagree that anything close to 115th best isn’t going to cut it? This year, perhaps we could’ve targeting Mag / Caleb types from the portal and compensated for the lack of post presence. We can’t do that next year otherwise our offense will be as bad as it was last season with worse defense because we won’t have a Cliff. You yourself acknowledged we won’t be able to afford players that excel at everything. We will have to prioritize.

It’s possible to win with a center who defends well but only really scores on put backs. Very few teams outside of the top 75 on D are successful in the BIG and the ones that are almost always have top 25 offenses which is highly unlikely next season.

 

[NickRU714]

Or, Sommerville needs to improve defensively, as so many freshman bigs have done since time immemorial.

Sommerville is 41.0% on twos away from the rim (34/83) per bart.... if he's 6/34 outside the paint per your source, that means he's 28/49 (57%) in the painted area away from the rim, in additional to being 69.6% (48/69) at the rim or on dunks.

Decision making is something he needs to work on in the offseason - instead of pulling up from 15 feet, taking a dribble or two toward the rim, to either get a closer shot or pick up a foul (where he's 86% from the FT line).

Sommerville can be that athletic, below-the-rim big like OSU tends to use.

Is Pike willing to gamble on Lathan improving?
Can he risk not bringing in a better defender to play the majority of the time?

 

[RUChoppin]

Is Pike willing to gamble on Lathan improving?
Can he risk not bringing in a better defender to play the majority of the time?

There is greater risk is in trying to bring in a new yet-unknown center than in keeping Sommerville.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Or, Sommerville needs to improve defensively, as so many freshman bigs have done since time immemorial.

Sommerville is 41.0% on twos away from the rim (34/83) per bart.... if he's 6/34 outside the paint per your source, that means he's 28/49 (57%) in the painted area away from the rim, in additional to being 69.6% (48/69) at the rim or on dunks.

Decision making is something he needs to work on in the offseason - instead of pulling up from 15 feet, taking a dribble or two toward the rim, to either get a closer shot or pick up a foul (where he's 86% from the FT line).

Sommerville can be that athletic, below-the-rim big like OSU tends to use.

His offense isn’t the issue. Our D on a whole needs to make drastic improvements in the offseason. In terms of understanding where to be, yes, Lathan will improve at that. The problem is he’s not only undersized but he doesn’t play “big”. if anything he plays smaller than his height. He’s simply not a physical big and that isn’t likely to change that much as he develops. It’s certainly not likely that he’ll be a plus defender next season.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

There is greater risk is in trying to bring in a new yet-unknown center than in keeping Sommerville.

I mean, if your thinking Pike is going to pursue a Dean Reiber type hoping to stumble on the next Luke Harangody (offensive stud who plays “good enough” D) well then yeah, maybe.

I think he’ll go after the physical Ogbole, Shaq Doorson style (hopefully we can get someone a bit more polished). In which case - the team D would be updated at the 5 for sure.

Successful Pike teams generate a good portion of their offense from defense. We need to bring in guys who play D and are dependable transition players to finish it off. That was one of the biggest problems last year. Shooting was an issue, but the bigger problem was all the lay ups we missed off of our own steals. That’s what did us in. If we finished the bunnies the record would’ve looked so much better last season even with the horrendous shooting.

Until Pike showcases a team that wins a different way, I’m hoping he goes back to his roots. Lathan isn’t that. He’s the opposite of the type of player Pike has had success with so far at Rutgers.

 

[RUChoppin]

I mean, if your thinking Pike is going to pursue a Dean Reiber type hoping to stumble on the next Luke Harangody (offensive stud who plays “good enough” D) well then yeah, maybe.

I think he’ll go after the physical Ogbole, Shaq Doorson style (hopefully we can get someone a bit more polished). In which case - the team D would be updated at the 5 for sure.

Successful Pike teams generate a good portion of their offense from defense. We need to bring in guys who play D and are dependable transition players to finish it off. That was one of the biggest problems last year. Shooting was an issue, but the bigger problem was all the lay ups we missed off of our own steals. That’s what did us in. If we finished the bunnies the record would’ve looked so much better last season even with the horrendous shooting.

Until Pike showcases a team that wins a different way, I’m hoping he goes back to his roots. Lathan isn’t that. He’s the opposite of the type of player Pike has had success with so far at Rutgers.

There are, generally speaking, 3 types of players in the portal.... players who did well on a lower level team hoping to step up, players who struggled on a higher level team hoping for a better situation, and players who did well on a higher level team looking for a payday. The first two are risky, and the last is out of our price range. All three require an adjustment period to get up to speed.

Also, if we lose Sommerville we don't need to just replace him - it means we'll need two centers from the portal, since we ran this year short a center after not finding a replacement for Omoruyi.

Sommerville should be one of our priority players to keep around for next year, AND we should be looking for another defensive center. Ogbole hasn't played a full season yet - can't just roll into next year with two centers in this league.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

There are, generally speaking, 3 types of players in the portal.... players who did well on a lower level team hoping to step up, players who struggled on a higher level team hoping for a better situation, and players who did well on a higher level team looking for a payday. The first two are risky, and the last is out of our price range. All three require an adjustment period to get up to speed.

Also, if we lose Sommerville we don't need to just replace him - it means we'll need two centers from the portal, since we ran this year short a center after not finding a replacement for Omoruyi.

Sommerville should be one of our priority players to keep around for next year, AND we should be looking for another defensive center. Ogbole hasn't played a full season yet - can't just roll into next year with two centers in this league.

The advanced efficiency numbers on individual players are highly correlated to the price tag and marketability of kids in the portal. Those are adjusted for competition level. The correlation is very good, though not perfect (sometimes it can be explained - for instance, Jordan did well on defense in a pure zone system and the market likely understood the risk involved in transitioning).

The bottom line is Al is probably right that we won’t be able to afford a collection of players who have good numbers on both offense and defense. If we get one kid like that (it would likely be a guard because they are cheaper since there are more of them) it would be a lot.

We can’t aim to simply surround Lathan with strong defenders who play other positions like young Mag or Caleb’s, bevusse we have offense to replace too. Kids like them with good offensive efficiency are going to cost too much. So what do we do to improve the defense? If we don’t recruit defense, we’re going to be as bad if not worse next year than this year even if we do land one Cam Spencer and one of the frosh guards contributes at Geo’s frosh level (that’s realistically what we have to hope for on offense). But even still, we need to drastically improve the D.

I agree with you and would love to have Lathan AND another veteran center - probably one with modest stats but like I said - a Shaq Doorson bruiser style. The problem is, Lathan might not be okay with that. He supposedly may not have been this year. If we enter next season with just Lathan and Ogbole at the 5 (and no Ace on shot block) that’ll be very bad news IMO.

 

[newell138]

We put enough 0’s at the end of his Check, he would have been back.

I guess you should have written a bigger check then

 

[rutgersal]

I guess you should have written a bigger check then

I and everyone else

 

[ru8081]

The track record of this staff in recruiting in the portal is not good! Given this reality I would keep Sommervile if he’s willing to stay!

 

[newell138]

I and everyone else

If the Yankees or Mets need more money should we all pitch in too?

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Keeping Sommerville is priority #1, 2, and 3

We’re 14-15 and losing our top two players (by a landslide). How can retaining anyone else on the current team possibility be priorities 1, 2 and 3???

 

[RutgersChow]

Not having Cliff is not only difference between making/missing tournament, but also being a team capable of a deep run.
Even though he didn’t play much for Alabama vs RU in Vegas, if he was was on RU playing significant minutes, we win that game

Undisciplined teams don't make deep runs in the tournament. A top notch coach with the talent we have or Pikiel adding Cliff to this team. I think its close, but I'll take the former.

 

[RutgersChow]

The problem is we need to get better at D. Do you disagree that anything close to 115th best isn’t going to cut it? This year, perhaps we could’ve targeting Mag / Caleb types from the portal and compensated for the lack of post presence. We can’t do that next year otherwise our offense will be as bad as it was last season with worse defense because we won’t have a Cliff. You yourself acknowledged we won’t be able to afford players that excel at everything. We will have to prioritize.

It’s possible to win with a center who defends well but only really scores on put backs. Very few teams outside of the top 75 on D are successful in the BIG and the ones that are almost always have top 25 offenses which is highly unlikely next season.

How to you have a father who was an outstanding college player and go through 4 years of high school, and know next to nothing about defense. His high school must have been awful.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

How to you have a father who was an outstanding college player and go through 4 years of high school, and know next to nothing about defense. His high school must have been awful.

Nah - basketball is a game of levels and levels. How many D1 bound players do you think play on the average HS roster? The answer is for sure less than 1.

 

[G- RUnit]

Mulcahy mostly rode coat tails imo with a big caveat to how well he was able to make use of cliff for both their sakes.

4th all time in RU assists.
Mostly road coat tails? Ridiculous

 

[newell138]

I and everyone else

do you still feel like paying more $$$ after what you saw tonight?

 

[G- RUnit]

Miss the D of Simpson.
Many don’t want to hear it but true.

 

[rutgersal]

do you still feel like paying more $$$ after what you saw tonight?

Absolutely. We need more talent

 

[bac2therac]

Absolutely. We need more talent

$3 million plus in talent delivered 14-16 and the embarrassment tonight

 

[Mholinko]

do you still feel like paying more $$$ after what you saw tonight?

Do you feel like hanging out with Minnesota in the basement for the next decade

 

[bac2therac]

Do you feel like hanging out with Minnesota in the basement for the next decade

so over $3 million paid and I know RU didnt do it...how many schools paid that much to two players

and then adding in whatever bullshit NIL we did have plus the vegas million....well its not a ringing endorsement that $$$ will solve anything with this coach and no AD

 

[NickRU714]

If the Yankees or Mets need more money should we all pitch in too?

Yankees and Mets never required you to spend extra for tickets and blamed the fanbase for not having the money to hire/fire coaches or build new facilities.

College athletics is built on fans being forced to fund programs.
This isnt a new concept.

It's quite amusing.
Remove NIL and player compensation.
Where do people think the money for all these staff raises and extensions was going to come from?

 

[newell138]

Yankees and Mets never required you to spend extra for tickets and blamed the fanbase for not having the money to hire/fire coaches or build new facilities.

College athletics is built on fans being forced to fund programs.
This isnt a new concept.

It's quite amusing.
Remove NIL and player compensation.
Where do people think the money for all these staff raises and extensions was going to come from?

I used to donate to the track team as an alum of the team but that was for scholarships, etc. Not donating so kids can get paid to compete regardless of the sport. I love RU athletics but not so important to donate money to some 19 year olds compensation package for a year They are getting a

 

[rutgersal]

Yankees and Mets never required you to spend extra for tickets and blamed the fanbase for not having the money to hire/fire coaches or build new facilities.

College athletics is built on fans being forced to fund programs.
This isnt a new concept.

It's quite amusing.
Remove NIL and player compensation.
Where do people think the money for all these staff raises and extensions was going to come from?

When’s the last time you bought Yankees tickets? It’s over $100/game for good seats. Point is players salaries are built into the price of the ticket. And players salaries are also subsidized by media revenue.

In college, ticket revenue pays for operations, while donations fund facilities. Rutgers fans have never been conditioned to donate adequately, which is why Rutgers has never won anything in 156 years. Football Scarlet Lot Parking would cost $20K at Michigan. At Rutgers, it’s 2.5K.

Now fans are also being asked to fund players NIL. Adequate funds provide competitive players. Inadequate funds provide big risks and sometimes inadequate players. This season is an example of that.

 

[rutgersal]

$3 million plus in talent delivered 14-16 and the embarrassment tonight

$3 million plus was provided by outside interests for freshmen who took time to acclimate. Much less than a million was provided by fans to land multiple subpar players. This is why we had to suffer through a disappointing season. It’s seems that the market is at least $300K per good player. The most a player of ours got was $250K. The rest got much less.

 

[toby83]

Al doesn't get that these are 18 & 19 year olds. Motivation, drive, character all wildy carry from kid to kid. Some getting a check for first time, and the kid suddenly changes. Transfers on their second check couldn't give a **** about the school or team. Immature jealousy when they find out who got more,no longer invested.

Al doesn't get it. Thinks you pay for five and five work out. Wants us to pay for an unsustainable cash flow year after year. Clueless.

 

[RUsojo]

Al doesn't get that these are 18 & 19 year olds. Motivation, drive, character all wildy carry from kid to kid. Some getting a check for first time, and the kid suddenly changes. Transfers on their second check couldn't give a **** about the school or team. Immature jealousy when they find out who got more,no longer invested.

Al doesn't get it. Thinks you pay for five and five work out. Wants us to pay for an unsustainable cash flow year after year. Clueless.

That’s the coaches job to manage the team. Plenty of players getting checks on winning teams absolutely dialed into their respective programs.

Managing the team/players has always been a caution sign hanging in this program and guys who have left repeatedly signaled such.

As for you Mets/Yankees fans. They have never had a problem with the complete absurdity of the illusion of an equal playing field in baseball when it serves them as fans when their team spends $200M, $100M, etc more than their opponents.

In CBB, and football, at least our school/admin is spending as much as our peers (not the blue bloods). Rutgers and the state has been trying to drag the program to average for decades without the help of the fanbase. Yet the fanbase seems to always have the highest expectations.

We know the system. It’s evolved but still the cornerstone is alumni/fan support that augments the school budgets. If you don’t want to give, than reimagine how you view your expectations more inline with reality.

 

[rutgersal]

Al doesn't get that these are 18 & 19 year olds. Motivation, drive, character all wildy carry from kid to kid. Some getting a check for first time, and the kid suddenly changes. Transfers on their second check couldn't give a **** about the school or team. Immature jealousy when they find out who got more,no longer invested.

Al doesn't get it. Thinks you pay for five and five work out. Wants us to pay for an unsustainable cash flow year after year. Clueless.

The clueless one is you, @toby83 . We’re not paying for 18 and 19 year olds. We’re paying for 22 and 23 year olds from the transfer portal. Finished products, who can immediately impact, because they have a track record. Every player is a risk, but we’re counting on the expertise of Steve Pikiell and Greg Schiano to choose the right players. At least have your facts right, before attacking anyone else.

The 18 year olds weren’t paid by us, they were paid by outside entities like fanatics..

 

[toby83]

The clueless one is you, @toby83 . We’re not paying for 18 and 19 year olds. We’re paying for 22 and 23 year olds from the transfer portal. Finished products, who can immediately impact, because they have a track record. Every player is a risk, but we’re counting on the expertise of Steve Pikiell and Greg Schiano to choose the right players. At least have your facts right, before attacking anyone else.

The 18 year olds weren’t paid by us, they were paid by outside entities like fanatics..

so every paid transfer worked out this year? lot of assumptions on your part. ASSUMING there is a GM in place to find the right guys, make the right decisions. ASSUMING a 22 year old on his second and last check will give a shit about unselfishly buying into a program he doesn't give a shit about. you are naive as hell.
Off top of my head without looking others up: Coleman Hawkins, Dug McDaniel, Johnel Davis, AJ Storr, Malik Mack, Jonas Aidoo.

Talking about entitled 22 year olds. coming up with $5M per year for 5 kids when only 2 or 3 of them will REALLY work out AND make the team better is not going to happen. This is New Jersey, not Chapel Hill. Alumni and fans are not as dialed in, this team is not nearly important enough to the casual fan, not important enough to the more than casual fan who will throw in few hundred per year. Not going to happen here. you are in your own little world.

 

[rutgersal]

so every paid transfer worked out this year? lot of assumptions on your part. ASSUMING there is a GM in place to find the right guys, make the right decisions. ASSUMING a 22 year old on his second and last check will give a shit about unselfishly buying into a program he doesn't give a shit about. you are naive as hell.
Off top of my head without looking others up: Coleman Hawkins, Dug McDaniel, Johnel Davis, AJ Storr, Malik Mack, Jonas Aidoo.

Talking about entitled 22 year olds. coming up with $5M per year for 5 kids when only 2 or 3 of them will REALLY work out AND make the team better is not going to happen. This is New Jersey, not Chapel Hill. Alumni and fans are not as dialed in, this team is not nearly important enough to the casual fan, not important enough to the more than casual fan who will throw in few hundred per year. Not going to happen here. you are in your own little world.

None of the paid transfers worked out because we got what we paid for, not much. 2 or 3 working out are 2 or 3 more than we had this year.

The more we pay, the better chance of kids working out. Before we talk about $5M per year, let’s raise $500K per year. true fans are going to make it happen. not casual fans like you.

 

[RUsojo]

 

[Mr Magoo]

View embedded media

One of the commentators (not Vitale) mentioned what great hands Cliff has 😳

 

[NickRU714]

Check out Clif's shot chart.
All 7 baskets within the block/charge circle.

This is what HC Pike was hopefully going to do to Clif if he stayed.
And hopefully will do with Lathan next year.

Alabama 93-91 Auburn (Mar 8, 2025) Play-by-Play - ESPN

Play-by-play action for the Alabama Crimson Tide vs. Auburn Tigers NCAAM game from March 8, 2025 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

 

[RUChoppin]

Check out Clif's shot chart.
All 7 baskets within the block/charge circle.

This is what HC Pike was hopefully going to do to Clif if he stayed.
And hopefully will do with Lathan next year.

Alabama 93-91 Auburn (Mar 8, 2025) Play-by-Play - ESPN

Play-by-play action for the Alabama Crimson Tide vs. Auburn Tigers NCAAM game from March 8, 2025 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

LS has much better shooting touch and not as good hops. Two different players, can't approach offense the same.

 

[NickRU714]

LS has much better shooting touch and not as good hops. Two different players, can't approach offense the same.

LS kind of doesn't. At least not yet.
LS is good in the paint but worse than Clif when shooting from outside the paint.

Last year Clif was 11/40 outside the paint (includes 1-5 from 3).
This year LS is 7/44 outside the paint (includes 1-8 from 3).

Any idea of moving LS out from the basket on offense isn't necessarily a good idea (such as pairing him with a defensive center who also can't shoot).

 

[RUChoppin]

LS kind of doesn't. At least not yet.
LS is good in the paint but worse than Clif when shooting from outside the paint.

Last year Clif was 11/40 outside the paint (includes 1-5 from 3).
This year LS is 7/44 outside the paint (includes 1-8 from 3).

Any idea of moving LS out from the basket on offense isn't necessarily a good idea (such as pairing him with a defensive center who also can't shoot).

I know you like that "in the paint" stat, but it extends out to 13 feet from the front of the rim, so it's not really a great measure for accuracy "away from the rim". I am much more comfortable with Sommerville taking a shot in the paint near the FT line than I ever was with Omoruyi.

So far this year, LS is:
5-5 (100%): Dunks
44-65 (67.7%): At the rim
36-88 (40.9%): Other twos (including too many damn-fool 21 footers)
1-8 (12.5%): Threes

Cliff last year:
51-62 (82.3%): Dunks
102-155 (65.8%): At the rim
27-94 (28.7%): Other twos
1-5 (20.0%): Threes

Cliff the year before:
73-82 (89.0%): Dunks
146-229 (63.8%): At the rim
29-102 (28.4%): Other twos
4-22 (18.2%): Threes

LS is already a more efficient scorer on non-dunks as a freshman than Omoruyi was as a junior or senior. They are two very different players with different styles and different physical attributes. You cannot expect LS to fit into Omoruyi's shoes, nor should you.

Lathan has better post moves than Omoruyi had, with more of an ability to receive passes in the high post and work his defender with his back to the basket. He has better touch on layups and short shots than Omoruyi had. On the flip side, Omoruyi's wingspan, elevation, and overall athleticism allowed him to flush damn near anything he caught close to the rim - which Sommerville doesn't have.

 

[SBP]

Acuff was $250K. A Detroit media member posted it on Twitter. The post was live for several hours before it was deleted.

What a waste of money. He got stuffed so bad today…