Losing Cliff cost us the NCAA Tournament

[Ridge 22]

It’s interesting to me that people call Al out for being “clueless” or whatever. Al’s actually one of the smarter people on these boards. Stick to the facts and debate him versus name calling and see who’s clueless.

Maybe so. But his takes are largely ridiculous and mostly intended to create reaction over substance. Too much look at me vs I have a real point. It's either over the top bs, NIL ranting, or creepy sh*t that doesn't belong here. Just be real and stop the antics and maybe we can take him seriously

 

[RutgersChow]

Agreed. I think Pike should try to develop Lathan into more of a PF over the offseason and add a true rim-protecting center in the portal. Add in a good transfer portal point guard and I could see the vision to a team like that being decent

This is a staff of point guards that has struggled developing point guards. They're not likely to develop Lathan into a power forward unless they bring someone else on board.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Somerville is undersized but given our lack of resources I don’t have any confidence we can recruit better.

I’d be happy to eat crow but I just don’t see him as the answer next year.

 

[bethlehemfan]

I’d be happy to eat crow but I just don’t see him as the answer next year.

Somerville is going to be a very very good player if he works hard. He’s got things that can’t be taught imo

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I liked cliff a lot. But remember Mississipi State game last year? He had 3 points and kid for them had 18 points and 11 rebounds. Record would be better but he had a lot of bad games also.

What does that even mean? Everyone has bad games or less productive ones. I remember that Miss State game. It was frustrating. Guess why. Cliff had a ton of deflections out of bounds off him - side out them instead of getting a stop. At the time it sucked giving them second chances in that way. Certainly wasn’t his best game, but even when Cliff wasn’t lighting up stat sheets he was altering shots with his presence and deflecting them. There were very few easy baskets underneath. That is a big problem this year. The perimeter D is bad too but that seems causal to me because unless we really sell out inside we can’t stop anyone in the paint.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Somerville is going to be a very very good player if he works hard. He’s got things that can’t be taught imo

I’m not sure exactly what role he would play and maybe he could be good somewhere. I don’t see a scenario where he’s effective as a starting 5 at Rutgers. We need to win through D first as long as Pike is our head coach. And that’s not going to happen with Lathan at center. I just don’t see it.

 

[bethlehemfan]

I’m not sure exactly what role he would play and maybe he could be good somewhere. I don’t see a scenario where he’s effective as a starting 5 at Rutgers. We need to win through D first as long as Pike is our head coach. And that’s not going to happen with Lathan at center. I just don’t see it.

Fair enough. I don’t agree. I see. A willing defender who’s only a freshman.

 

[goru7]

PSAL Hoops , how many Rutgers freshman bigs have had the season Lathan has had? Teams are playing 2 bigs and one of ours can be a rim protector that only catches lobs. But Lathan has a handle , can back you down and can score.
His defense on pick and roll has not been good but the rim protector will take on that role. His one on one defense is improving. He played and blocked Biddle ‘s shot on multiple possessions . He is only a freshman . My guess is he gets better defensively at least serviceable but my guess is his offense will get even better when he doesn’t hesitate down low and hits that midrange shot at a much higher clip and some 3’s.

 

[RUChoppin]

Sommerville can get better defensively - those are skills that can be taught. If he stays and works the offseason with Pike's staff, he'll be an improved interior defender next season, and will continue to get better as an upperclassman.

He's not going to be a shot-blocker like Omoruyi - but you can be a good interior defender without being a shot-blocker.

I see him as a key building block for next year's squad, and one of our priorities to retain going into next season.

 

[mikeyo]

He left for the bag but it is striking what a small role he has at Bama. I’m sure he thought he’d play more. This year has done nothing to improve his profile.

He still can't shoot

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Sommerville can get better defensively - those are skills that can be taught. If he stays and works the offseason with Pike's staff, he'll be an improved interior defender next season, and will continue to get better as an upperclassman.

He's not going to be a shot-blocker like Omoruyi - but you can be a good interior defender without being a shot-blocker.

I see him as a key building block for next year's squad, and one of our priorities to retain going into next season.

He can get better, yes. Perhaps he could defend like veteran CJ Gettys did in our system?

Unfortunately, I don’t think he can play anything close to the role our traditional Pike defense has required of a 5 on our better teams. I just don’t see him as that type of player. MJ and Cliff were the “type” from day one. Shaq Doorson and Big O are weaker versions of the “type” more suitable for back up roles. Lathan seems like a kid who belongs on an offense first “outscore the opponent” type of team and I just don’t see Pike having success aiming for that. It’s just my opinion. I’d love to be wrong.

 

[goru7]

He can get better, yes. Perhaps he could defend like veteran CJ Gettys did in our system?

Unfortunately, I don’t think he can play anything close to the role our traditional Pike defense has required of a 5 on our better teams. I just don’t see him as that type of player. MJ and Cliff were the “type” from day one. Shaq Doorson and Big O are weaker versions of the “type” more suitable for back up roles. Lathan seems like a kid who belongs on an offense first “outscore the opponent” type of team and I just don’t see Pike having success aiming for that. It’s just my opinion. I’d love to be wrong.

Pike has played his center out on dribble handouts and pick and rolls and a passer forever. Lathan fits that just fine or better.
Lathan is not the rim protector Pike has had forever. But his defense can improve and they is no reason to not still pursue a defensive minded rim protector.

 

[shields]

My point was he had a lot of bad games. Their backup was dominate in that game. Love having a big who shoots over 80% from the line.

 

[rutgersal]

Bama would have the same number of wins without Cliff

Because they would have gotten someone similar with their $1M.

 

[rutgersal]

I’d be happy to eat crow but I just don’t see him as the answer next year.

I just don’t see us bringing in anyone better. Maybe a defensive oriented Center to spell him. Budget is a huge constraint in these parts.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

My point was he had a lot of bad games. Their backup was dominate in that game. Love having a big who shoots over 80% from the line.

He doesn’t add enough on offense to make up for how much he hurts us defensively in Pike’s system. Some of it is general understand, and yes, that part should improve as he develops but a lot of it is simply the type of player he is. That part isn’t likely to change.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I just don’t see us bringing in anyone better. Maybe a defensive oriented Center to spell him. Budget is a huge constraint in these parts.

Better is the wrong word. We need to bring in a profile that’s as close to MJ’s stat line coming off the 2018-19 season as we can afford. He played 17 mpg and averaged about 4.8 ppg and 5.7 rebounds on a losing team. That doesn’t translate into a 7 figure pay check.

Not every 17 minute frosh or sophomore will develop the way MJ did. But that’s the gamble and direction we need to move in for Pike to have a chance to succeed IMO. If Lathan wants to stay and compete against that type of player for PT, that’s fine. But we CANNOT forego shopping the market for this piece in the offseason and instead reassure Lathan of his starting role by taking a bench player from a midmajor with an Agee like profile. We won’t improve. At least that’s my opinion.

 

[goru7]

He doesn’t add enough on offense to make up for how much he hurts us defensively in Pike’s system. Some of it is general understand, and yes, that part should improve as he develops but a lot of it is simply the type of player he is. That part isn’t likely to change.

You sound predetermined and likely will be wrong. Get me the stats of freshman centers on last 30 years with Lathan’s offense production . Then continue your position regarding his offense isn’t adding enough. He is a damn freshmen. Compare to other freshman centers in the country.

 

[rutgersal]

Not having a consistent third scoring threat has also impacted team results.There were games that Bailey or Harper weren't playing or had poor scoring efforts because they were double teamed.For all the complaint regarding Sommerville he is the best foul shooter on the team and is a far better offensive threat than Cliff.

Even with his limitations, Cliff likely would have been the third scoring threat, averaging 10.4 points last year.

 

[rutgersal]

Better is the wrong word. We need to bring in a profile that’s as close to MJ’s stat line coming off the 2018-19 season as we can afford. He played 17 mpg and averaged about 4.8 ppg and 5.7 rebounds on a losing team. That doesn’t translate into a 7 figure pay check.

Not every 17 minute frosh or sophomore will develop the way MJ did. But that’s the gamble and direction we need to move in for Pike to have a chance to succeed IMO. If Lathan wants to stay and compete against that type of player for PT, that’s fine. But we CANNOT forego shopping the market for this piece in the offseason and instead reassure Lathan of his starting role by taking a bench player from a midmajor with an Agee like profile. We won’t improve. At least that’s my opinion.

Right now we’d have trouble paying mid 6 figures. Not even sure we could pay $300K. But hope springs eternal.

 

[JavaDunk18]

Not having Cliff is not only difference between making/missing tournament, but also being a team capable of a deep run.
Even though he didn’t play much for Alabama vs RU in Vegas, if he was was on RU playing significant minutes, we win that game

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

You sound predetermined and likely will be wrong. Get me the stats of freshman centers on last 30 years with Lathan’s offense production . Then continue your position regarding his offense isn’t adding enough. He is a damn freshmen. Compare to other freshman centers in the country.

I’d love to be wrong and I don’t care about his stats. The stats on points we give up in the paint are the only ones relevant to my concerns. I never said he’s not a contributor on offense and depending on match ups he’s ok with grabbing some rebounds. The thing is if we don’t have even a top 50 offense this year under Pike we’re probably not going to be having that next year. That’s not meant as a knock on him. Pike’s a great defensive coach. On offense his teams are structured to do just enough. Perhaps it could change and go the other way but I’ll believe that when I see it. We need the D to go back to being elite and I don’t see that happening without a more defense oriented post player. Again, this is just my opinion.

 

[goru7]

I’d love to be wrong and I don’t care about his stats. The stats on points we give up in the paint are the only ones relevant to my concerns. I never said he’s not a contributor on offense and depending on match ups he’s ok with grabbing some rebounds. The thing is if we don’t have even a top 50 offense this year under Pike we’re probably not going to be having that next year. That’s not meant as a knock on him. Pike’s a great defensive coach. On offense his teams are structured to do just enough. Perhaps it could change and go the other way but I’ll believe that when I see it. We need the D to go back to being elite and I don’t see that happening without a more defense oriented post player. Again, this is just my opinion.

What do you mean you do not care about the stats? You say if we do not even have a top 50 offense , then you fail to look at Kenpom today where we are 48th . So what are you really saying. I will ignore what he can do for us offensively , I just don’t like him. That is what it boils down too. He is not your type of guy . Ok. Bias exposed.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

What do you mean you do not care about the stats? You say if we do not even have a top 50 offense , then you fail to look at Kenpom today where we are 48th . So what are you really saying. I will ignore what he can do for us offensively , I just don’t like him. That is what it boils down too. He is not your type of guy . Ok. Bias exposed.

I’m saying that in my opinion, a Pike coached team needs a top 50 D minimum to succeed and that won’t be possible without a better interior defender logging the bulk of the minutes.

 

[goru7]

I’m saying that in my opinion, a Pike coached team needs a top 50 D minimum to succeed and that won’t be possible without a better interior defender logging the bulk of the minutes.

Are you watching what Goldin is doing to every Illinois defender. He is torching them. He is one of the best low post offensive centers as was Queen. Lathan couldn’t handle either but not many teams can . A majority of the defensive issues is our guards have been horrendous and cannot keep their man in front of them causing penetration then the chaos starts. You blaming it on the bigs when it is the guards is where in my opinion you are misguided. A rim protector would definitely help but doesn’t solve the main problem. Getting 2 way guards and wings does that.

 

[SBP]

Somerville is incredibly undersized...Pike will have to better

He’s a 4 IMHO. But needs rebounding boxing out and defense lessons.

 

[goru7]

He’s a 4 IMHO. But needs rebounding boxing out and defense lessons.

4 ‘s will defend 4’s and 5’s. They will defend both . Teams in the Big 10 alone have shown you can play 2 bugs together and be successful . Queen and Reese, Goldin and Wolf , Ballo and Reneau. We can play a rim protector with Lathan at times. Not as much as those 3 teams for sure but for minutes each half.

 

[SBP]

PSAL Hoops , how many Rutgers freshman bigs have had the season Lathan has had? Teams are playing 2 bigs and one of ours can be a rim protector that only catches lobs. But Lathan has a handle , can back you down and can score.
His defense on pick and roll has not been good but the rim protector will take on that role. His one on one defense is improving. He played and blocked Biddle ‘s shot on multiple possessions . He is only a freshman . My guess is he gets better defensively at least serviceable but my guess is his offense will get even better when he doesn’t hesitate down low and hits that midrange shot at a much higher clip and some

Roy Hinson averaged 10 pts, 2 blocks, and 6
rebounds Freshman year. Only 55% from the line . Averaged 28 minutes.

James Bailey 8.5 pts and 3 blocks and 7 rebounds. Only 55% from line

Lathan 8 pts 4 rebounds 0.6 blocks yikes. 85% from the line though as we know his forte.

 

[goru7]

Roy Hinson averaged 10 pts, 2 blocks, and 6
rebounds Freshman year. Only 55% from the line . Averaged 28 minutes.

James Bailey 8.5 pts and 3 blocks and 7 rebounds. Only 55% from line

Lathan 8 pts 4 rebounds 0.6 blocks yikes. 85% from the line though as we know his forte.

So you had to go back 40 years. Haha.

 

[SBP]

So you had to go back 40 years. Haha.

Yup. It is what it is. You said Rutgers centers, so there you have it. We have low expectations but his rebounds and blocks, which is what’s needed, are under par for a center on any team in any year. Has potential but he’s looked soo bad on D it’s laughable

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

So you had to go back 40 years. Haha.

His ability to score does not make him an effective defensive 5. I don’t know if he’s fast enough to play the 4. That’s TBD. Pike does not play a positionless style on D. We need a big body type of center who plays physical D with the coach we have. Unless your banking on a complete transformation. I’m not.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Yup. It is what it is. You said Rutgers centers, so there you have it. We have low expectations but his rebounds and blocks, which is what’s needed, are under par for a center on any team in any year. Has potential but he’s looked soo bad on D it’s laughable

He has not shown potential of any kind to play close to servicable defense in our system. That’s the problem. We currently rank 49th on offense WITH Dylan and Ace. We are not likely to replace their efficiency which means even if Lathan puts up 15 ppg next season, it would be very unlikely that we’ll showcase a top 50 offense and we’ll probably be considerably worse that this year - even if Lathan takes major steps. The difference needs to be on the defensive end. Thats where Pike shines. Unfortunately Lathan has miles upon miles to go to even border on the servicable end as a post defender. If we can’t stop anyone, we can’t win. It’s that simple. Any fantasies about us having the type of offense that will just outscore the opponent next season with brand new lead scorers should be dropped.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Right now we’d have trouble paying mid 6 figures. Not even sure we could pay $300K. But hope springs eternal.

I have no idea if this is true or not. But I’m also pretty sure you have no idea what the relative cost differential would be (if any) between Tyson Acuff and someone with MJ’s redshirt frosh stat line from 2018-19. For all we know Acuff could’ve been more expensive. He put up video game Iike numbers at a mid major.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Somerville is going to be a very very good player if he works hard. He’s got things that can’t be taught imo

The opposite. He is a skilled offensive player that comes with practice. Also as the season went on he stopped putting the ball on the deck unnecessarily.

lack of athleticism and length is something that cant be taught. That is whi i agree with @PSAL_Hoops

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

The opposite. He is a skilled offensive player that comes with practice. Also as the season went on he stopped putting the ball on the deck unnecessarily.

lack of athleticism and length is something that cant be taught. That is whi i agree with @PSAL_Hoops

Yup, this exactly. The reality is on D we’d be much better off with 2 cheap Shaq Doorson types and Ogbole splitting the minutes than what we have now. The issue though is next year we’re going to need to replace a lot of offense too, but it’s a lot cheaper to add that through other positions than the 5 spot. Shaq Doorson types wouldn’t be my plan A. Plan A should be what I said before - young MJ type. If we can’t afford one of those, the compromise becomes the guys who bring the defense but are more limited on offense. We need the D from the post more than the offense in my opinion.

 

[PiscatawayMike]

I have no idea if this is true or not. But I’m also pretty sure you have no idea what the relative cost differential would be (if any) between Tyson Acuff and someone with MJ’s redshirt frosh stat line from 2018-19. For all we know Acuff could’ve been more expensive. He put up video game Iike numbers at a mid major.

Acuff was $250K. A Detroit media member posted it on Twitter. The post was live for several hours before it was deleted.

 

[rutgersal]

Yup, this exactly. The reality is on D we’d be much better off with 2 cheap Shaq Doorson types and Ogbole splitting the minutes than what we have now. The issue though is next year we’re going to need to replace a lot of offense too, but it’s a lot cheaper to add that through other positions than the 5 spot. Shaq Doorson types wouldn’t be my plan A. Plan A should be what I said before - young MJ type. If we can’t afford one of those, the compromise becomes the guys who bring the defense but are more limited on offense. We need the D from the post more than the offense in my opinion.

At least Lathan gives us some us offense, and can be counted on for roughly 10 pts per game, and will likely be our #1 option at the 5, unless he leaves. Sure we will add other players, but they will be complementary. We’ll have to work with what we have.

 

[DC8690]

Michigan ate our lunch inside all game long as Goldin was unsolicited, and ended up with 22 points. Their rebounding edge was 38-27. Just a common theme for this season. Cliffs toughness and leadership is dearly missed.

Look at all our close losses and the difference is Cliffs impact.

Yes cliff left and I do agree it hurt us, but there were quite a few games last year that Cliff got torched by the other teams center and I am not just talking about Edey - he could not defend Reese, Crowl and Payne both had great games against him also. He was a great shot blocker, but not a good all around defender. Lathan is a true freshman and we keep comparing him to a 5th year player.

 

[NickRU714]

The main concern with Lathan is that it appears he can't shoot (for now?)
1/8 from 3 (13%)
6/34 from outside the paint/inside the 3pt line (17%)

This leads to a couple issues for next year:

1. He can't be moved out of the post (PF/Wing) because he isn't a scoring or playmaking threat.
He's a non threat away from the basket.

2. If he's your center, then he isn't the defensive presence it appears HC Pike needs for his defense (why can't a defensive mind like Pike adjust if needed?).

3. If a better defensive center is brought in, wouldn't that player likely start and play most minutes? Likely can't play them together - see #1.

Either HC Pike needs to figure out a defensive scheme that accommodates Lathan or Lathan will primarily be a bench player because of defensive limitations.

 

[RutgersClassof2004]

Keeping Sommerville is priority #1, 2, and 3