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Noah is a Bust

Cliff. Rebounding yes and blocks yes! Everything else? (and we just hit the conference play)

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again you're the one who said frosh vs. Senior. Not me. I gave you one particular year. You honestly look at those stats and see some great improvement.?

Here is Caleb. Look at his Offensive number and his D numbers. One clearly is better and one not. The facts are the facts.

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Again, McConnell had a closer 3 point line as a freshman, which was significant for him. He also missed games returning from injury as a 5th year.

You should also really use per 40min stats to adjust for minutes played
 
again you're the one who said frosh vs. Senior. Not me. I gave you one particular year. You honestly look at those stats and see some great improvement.?

Here is Caleb. Look at his Offensive number and his D numbers. One clearly is better and one not. The facts are the facts.

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2018-19RutgersBig TenFR31015.51.74.2.4151.12.4.4590.61.8.3571.41.7.7920.52.02.51.00.80.11.21.35.59.76
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Frosh vs. senior is the entirety of a career. If you want to look at how players develop under a coach, you compare the player when they got here (i.e. freshman year) to when they left (i.e. senior year).

Caleb McConnell was a completely unheralded recruit who developed enough under Pikiell to win numerous very prestigious defensive awards and get a G-League contract which seems like another win in Pikiell's column to me.
 
Keep in mind that Geo's first two years were with a closer three point line, which most people tend to forget/ignore.

Even so, following your premise of soph vs 5th year, he was a more efficient scorer with fewer turnovers and fouls. And that's excluding the fact that he missed 4 games at the start of the season due to injury, while he was healthy all season as a sophomore.
CHOP i'm not arguing Soph vs. 5th year. I'm saying last couple didn't get much IF any better. And now I've shown stats for the three of them. I'll give you Paul next since the initial comments was about the group of players .
 
There’s an awful lot of complaints we don’t use cutters, screens, sets or plays… why is that?
How do you explain Cliff not able to catch the ball without two or three guys completely draping and smothering him.
The one on one, street ball, create offense vs actually running an offense has been a complaint here for years.
That's a stategy issue not a player development issue.
 
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Cliff. Rebounding yes and blocks yes! Everything else? (and we just hit the conference play)

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If you really can't see a difference between first and third years here, I don't know what to tell you. Again, too, adjust for minutes.
 
Cliff. Rebounding yes and blocks yes! Everything else? (and we just hit the conference play)

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Cliff is probably your best example though I would argue a lot of his decreased effectiveness this year is a result of what is around him as opposed to him actually being a worse player. I will agree I see no evidence he's improved vs. last year.
 
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Paul..the guy who looked like he could make a difference but was playing out of position and got a head freeze and left when Pike was going to fix him...
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Paul..the guy who looked like he could make a difference but was playing out of position and got a head freeze and left when Pike was going to fix him...
asonSchoolConfClassGGSMPFGFGAFG%2P2PA2P%3P3PA3P%FTFTAFT%ORBDRBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSSOS
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2020-21RutgersBig TenSO282127.32.14.3.4791.32.3.5540.82.0.3931.01.4.6750.92.43.32.90.60.41.62.35.912.50
2021-22RutgersBig TenJR323232.23.58.0.4382.75.7.4750.82.3.3471.21.5.7761.22.94.15.31.10.32.62.39.06.81
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Another guy who is clearly better at the end than the beginning, even with the disastrous finish. These tables do not show what you think they show.
 
Noah was not a high school recruit, he was a major piece on a UMass team that was better offensively that anything Pike has had here. He has not played well but the potential is obviously there.
Well almost halfway through...its a one year rental not an audition for a future role
 
Well almost halfway through...its a one year rental not an audition for a future role
Yeah, I mean he's not helping us currently. But it's not some mystery what he was supposed to bring or why Pike thought he could bring it. He has done it successfully before.
 
And also this, of course. You @DennisHajekRC84 seem to think the freshman => sophomore improvements don't count for some reason?
did I say that? What I see is a bunch of players that made strides (to your point) and then went flat to backwards. Folks can talk about minutes, hurt feelings, whatever but these numbers just back up what my own eyes show me.
We haven't (or should I say Pike) hasn't developed that Jr/Sr stud (or two) that brings night in night consistency. The records reflect that. I see some games magically won on last shot heroics and games lost by the inconsistent play of the leaders. We should have made the tourney in 2020 (check) . We blew the Houston game in 2021. We blew the play-in game in 2022. We blew the first round at home NIT last year.

Now I'm on another tangent lol. I don't hate Pike but I think he has coaching issues. I don't think he gets the most out of his players CONSISTENTLY. When players like EO, JY, Paul, and Cam leave I think that reflects something. I think THIS year's team reflects something. That's my story and I'm sticking to it HAHA. Goodnight and thanks for not being jerks.
 
Another guy who is clearly better at the end than the beginning, even with the disastrous finish. These tables do not show what you think they show.
bonus reply. That is exactly what I suggested. Paul was onto something and his brain farts and/or Pike's inability to overcome Paul's brain farts cost us. Paul was adding value and Pike couldn't get it out of him.
 
Frosh vs. senior is the entirety of a career. If you want to look at how players develop under a coach, you compare the player when they got here (i.e. freshman year) to when they left (i.e. senior year).

Caleb McConnell was a completely unheralded recruit who developed enough under Pikiell to win numerous very prestigious defensive awards and get a G-League contract which seems like another win in Pikiell's column to me.
Caleb's defensive development was off the charts
 
did I say that? What I see is a bunch of players that made strides (to your point) and then went flat to backwards. Folks can talk about minutes, hurt feelings, whatever but these numbers just back up what my own eyes show me.
But they both happened under the same coach, why does Pike get blame for the flat periods but not credit for the strides?
We haven't (or should I say Pike) hasn't developed that Jr/Sr stud (or two) that brings night in night consistency. The records reflect that. I see some games magically won on last shot heroics and games lost by the inconsistent play of the leaders.
I mean, this is very unfair. We were 5-7 in close games in 2019-20, 6-3 in 20-21, 7-7 in 21-22, 6-7 last season, 1-1 this year. First, that's .500 exactly so it's not like we have some great (or terrible) luck in close games. Second, when we win it's "magical heroics" but when we lose it's bad play? So no credit for RHJ against Purdue, but blame for that Iowa miracle from a few years back or Ohio State's buzzer beater from literally out of bounds?
We should have made the tourney in 2020 (check) . We blew the Houston game in 2021. We blew the play-in game in 2022.
We were not favored against Houston. Getting a lead and then losing is not worse coaching than losing in a manner which is less emotionally taxing. I don't even see how we "blew" the play in game as we were never in a commanding position in that game.
When players like EO, JY, Paul, and Cam leave I think that reflects something.
"Something". What does it reflect, bearing in mind the level of turnover most teams have in the portal era?

JY went on to do worse at Oregon, despite the board geniuses claiming that Pike had ruined and misused him. Paul is doing worse at Washington so far. Spencer is a mercenary who has transferred twice now. So that leaves EO as really the only "strike" against Pike on this entire list.
I think THIS year's team reflects something.
Again, reflects WHAT?
 
Well almost halfway through...its a one year rental not an audition for a future role
we have 2 of those coming next year. January 7 2025 will be here before you know it. 2 months of learning to play at this level while needing to get Ws.
 
we have 2 of those coming next year. January 7 2025 will be here before you know it. 2 months of learning to play at this level while needing to get Ws.
The difference is those 2 will be playing basketball until they are 30+ and for millions of dollars. Noah? Not so much
 
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NF isnt the only problem as people have stated but he is by far the biggest.

There isn’t a single person on this roster getting cliff dunks. Cliff is the player he is and he needs a PG to work in tandem with him. That comes down to Simpson and NF.

Here is the problem - NF had an assist rate over 25% the last 3 years, including a top 40 assist rate in his last full season (2022).

This year he is below 15%. The staff saw a guard that could get to the hole, dish, and also knock down the 3.

Unfortunately, NF does none of those things while being a - on D.

I’m sorry to be so critical of a kid but he needs the pine. Start J-Mike and live with the freshman mistakes
 
NF isnt the only problem as people have stated but he is by far the biggest.

There isn’t a single person on this roster getting cliff dunks. Cliff is the player he is and he needs a PG to work in tandem with him. That comes down to Simpson and NF.

Here is the problem - NF had an assist rate over 25% the last 3 years, including a top 40 assist rate in his last full season (2022).

This year he is below 15%. The staff saw a guard that could get to the hole, dish, and also knock down the 3.

Unfortunately, NF does none of those things while being a - on D.

I’m sorry to be so critical of a kid but he needs the pine. Start J-Mike and live with the freshman mistakes
All 3 guards are failing miserably so far. JaMike as a freshman isn't a shocker. Noah as a senior is surprising.

I am willing to look more past some of the mistakes for JaMike because he is a freshman and i see him being a guy who will get dirty and get 50/50 balls.

By in large I am happy with the effort all 3 PG have had over the season so far on D.....I just think on offense they are completely killing us.
 
All 3 guards are failing miserably so far. JaMike as a freshman isn't a shocker. Noah as a senior is surprising.

I am willing to look more past some of the mistakes for JaMike because he is a freshman and i see him being a guy who will get dirty and get 50/50 balls.

By and large I am happy with the effort all 3 PG have had over the season so far on D.....I just think on offense they are completely killing us.
Agree with everything you’ve said, except for Noah’s D…it’s awful. I don’t care about his effort because he gets torched.
 
Not a great look by us as fans to put players names in the thread headline. Might be just a personal opinion but yeah.
 
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Ok, back in front of a laptop/keyboard again and not on my phone. Let's look at our guard options adjusted for minutes, sorted by total minutes played so far this year.

NF (382 min): 12.1 pts (.349 FG%, .406 eFG%, 11.1 FGA), 3.8 rb, 3.1 ast, 2.2 tov, 1.4 ast/tov, 1.7 stl, 3.8 pf
DS (343 min): 15.9 pts (.350 FG%, .386 eFG%, 14.3 FGA), 5.0 rb, 4.7 ast, 2.9 tov, 1.6 ast/tov, 2.2 stl, 2.2 pf
JD (293 min): 9.0 pts (.329 FG%, .355 eFG%, 10.4 FGA), 5.1 rb, 4.8 ast, 1.8 tov, 2.3 ast/tov, 2.0 stl, 1.6 pf
GG (279 min): 14.3 pts (.355 FG%, .421 eFG%, 15.3 FGA), 4.7 rb, 1.0 ast, 2.9 tov, 0.4 ast/tov, 1.0 stl, 3.2 pf
AW (158 min): 12.7 pts (.559 FG%, .618 eFG%, 8.6 FGA), 6.8 rb, 1.0 ast, 3.0 tov, 0.3 ast/tov, 1.0 stl, 3.5 pf

From a PG perspective (assists, turnovers, ast tov), Davis is my leader. Simpson is a close second, with nearly the same assists but >50% more tov. Our only other distributing option is Fernandes, who is a clear 3rd right now with fewer assists, the worst ast/tov ratio, fewer steals, and fewer rebounds, and way more fouls than the other two.

JD's biggest drawback is his scoring and FG%, especially at the rim and FT line - but he's shockingly been no worse than NF at the arc. If you have scorers around him, though, having slightly less points on fewer shots from the point is balanced by increased assists and reduced turnovers. Though, I could definitely see putting NF in over JD situationally at the end of close games when we are behind and need to foul and hit FTs to cut the deficit.

From a scoring guard perspective, Simpson scores more points than our other options, but on more attempts (because he takes a lot of low value 15+ foot shots) - remarkably, he has worse scoring efficiency than Griffiths. Williams has been the most efficient scoring the ball, but takes fewer shots than any of the other options (he scores more per minute than NF, on 23% fewer shots) .... but adds in more rebounds too, given his size. Fernandes comes in 3rd here as well, imo, but more because he brings more than Griffiths in other areas.

Comparing to what we had last year:
CS (1070 min): 16.7 pts (.444 FG%, .550 eFG%, 12.6 FGA), 4.9 rb, 3.9 ast, 1.7 tov, 2.3 ast/tov, 2.6 stl, 2.4 pf
PM (971 min): 10.3 pts (.413 FG%, .461 eFG%, 9.0 FGA), 4.5 rb, 6.1 ast, 2.5 tov, 2.5 ast/tov, 1.9 stl, 2.6 pf
CM (943 min): 10.8 pts (.395 FG%, .420 eFG%, 10.9 FGA), 6.5 rb, 3.6 ast, 2.5 tov, 1.5 ast/tov, 3.0 stl, 2.7 pf
DS (684 min): 14.2 pts (.374 FG%, .400 eFG%, 14.4 FGA), 3.2 rb, 2.9 ast, 1.8 tov, 1.5 stl, 1.6 ast/tov, 2.4 pf
 
Yup- big mistake by bringing him in and hinting to paul that he’s lost his point guard role. Paul on this team gives us the ball handling, leadership, toughness and offense for Cliff that is missing. Bet we’d also have another win or 2

but everyone bought into the faster play. Silly.
It's OK for fans to feel that way, but for staff to is criminal.
 
It’s not. The idea that Geo Baker was somehow a failure by Steve Pikiell is, frankly, ****ing stupid.
I don't think anyone said Pike was a failure with Baker, but Baker's offensive development was minimal. Caleb developed defensively but was a worse shooter in the end. Cliff is an offensive ability. I'll give you Mag, and RHJ had a lot of offensive skills before he got here. Overall, the staff does a pretty crappy job with individual offensive skill development.
 
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I don't think anyone said Pike was a failure with Baker, but Baker's offensive development was minimal. Caleb developed defensively but was a worse shooter in the end. Cliff is an offensive ability. I'll give you Mag, and RHJ had a lot of offensive skills before he got here. Overall, the staff does a pretty crappy job with individual offensive skill development.
Was he? Maybe. He only took 56 threes his freshman year (from a closer three point line) and made 20 of them. He never shot 30% in a season from three after that. He was probably just hot to start.

For some reference on how few this really is, Gavin has already taken 55 threes here.
 
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Robin James, Damian Santiago, and John Battle say "hello"

I don’t know what point you are trying to make but do you remember John Battle’s NCAA performance his Jr & Sr year?

Or Robin James and Damon Santiago?

Oh that’s right, it didn’t happen.

Individual player progress is not necessarily correlated to team success.

The team James was on his Senior year was awful. Who know if he got “better”, he simply got playing time.

He was hot for like a month and a half. It could be argued that this was evidence of terrible coaching because prior to that point he never played at all.

For someone who only wants to deal in “facts” you need better examples to make your argument.

I root for the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.
 
Yes, Cliff is a better basketball player than he was when he got here. By a lot.
How is he better?
What does he do better?
You would be better if you played in 100 college basketball games…there’s literally nothing notably better about his game
 
How is he better?
What does he do better?
You would be better if you played in 100 college basketball games…there’s literally nothing notably better about his game

Per 40 min, freshman year vs. junior year:
2020-21: 10.1 pts (6.6 FGA, .632 FG%, 3.8 FTA, .424 FT%), 10.6 rb, 0.5 ast, 1.0 stl, 1.9 blk, 1.2 tov, 5.2 pf
2022-23: 17.4 pts (13.7 FGA, .507 FG%,5.6 FTA, .604 FT%), 12.6 rb, 1.2 ast, 0.8 stl, 2.8 blk, 2.4 tov, 3.5 pf

The biggest difference so far in his senior year is he lost the guards that were getting him the ball. He's not a "just give it to him, and he'll generate points" player like Zach Edey - he got most of his offense from lobs, interior dishes, and putbacks. Losing Mulcahy/Spencer has been a huge hit to his production so far this year - remains to be seen if that can be sorted out.
 
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Now that everyone is done with Noah, he probably lights it up next game
I keep saying Gavin should be out of the rotation, but it isnt working. Usually with past RU teams this stuff works. Bad mouth players and or coaches and the opposite result happens.

Still waiting

Its bad when RUs streak of not winning home B1G (in days) looks like my current wordle streak
 
Per 40 min, freshman year vs. junior year:
2020-21: 10.1 pts (6.6 FGA, .632 FG%, 3.8 FTA, .424 FT%), 10.6 rb, 0.5 ast, 1.0 stl, 1.9 blk, 1.2 tov, 5.2 pf
2022-23: 15.3 pts (13.7 FGA, .507 FG%,5.6 FTA, .604 FT%), 12.6 rb, 1.2 ast, 0.8 stl, 4.9 blk, 2.4 tov, 3.5 pf
and?
Without the guards who got him the ball in position to dunk.
Nothing about his game has improved to help us win this year
 
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