OT: Electric vehicles

[mildone]

Wow - sounds like someone with an agenda. So lets summarize:

Ford CEO - "We have a ways to go before we can compete with Tesla...."

VW CEO - "Tesla is producing cars in 1/3 the time it takes us ... we need to do much much better"

Toyota Exec after finally taking apart a Tesla Model Y: "It is a work of art"

Sounds like many real experts agree with Mr. Belly.....

We were talking about build quality.

Ford CEO and VW CEOs weren’t talking about build quality. Toyota exec was obviously blowing smoke up asses, but was also not talking about build quality.

And if you reread and employ some comprehension this time, you’ll see that I was questioning Belly’s expertise seeing as how he was attempting to hold himself up as some kind of educated authority on the subject. When in fact he’s doing nothing more than you - absorbing propaganda and regurgitating it with no education or experience at all.

You and he can opine on this stuff, same as the rest of us. But it’s delusional for either of you to claim to be more informed than anybody else given the sources of your information.

But go ahead. Tell us some more about what some CEOs said about Tesla. That’s super informative.

 

[mildone]

Methinks alot of the Tesla hate spew comes from people who don't like Elon Musk's persona and what he is doing with Twitter. Not all of it. IMO, Tesla has some quality issues and bugaboos, like all car companies. But a lot of it is an inability to separate the vehicle from the CEO, IMO.

"Hate spew"? What's with the drama-queen post?

Neither @RU4Real nor I have any hate for Tesla at all. Neither of us have, so far as I can recall, ever expressed any hate for Tesla at all. Both of us have said pretty nice things about Tesla cars in this thread.

This exchange is about us questioning Belly's assertion that Tesla build quality is better than VWs. And me asking what qualifies him as an expert on the subject, after he condescendingly accused 4real of needing to learn about Tesla.

I'm not seeing where "hate" enters that equation at all.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Wow - sounds like someone with an agenda. So lets summarize:

Ford CEO - "We have a ways to go before we can compete with Tesla...."

VW CEO - "Tesla is producing cars in 1/3 the time it takes us ... we need to do much much better"

Toyota Exec after finally taking apart a Tesla Model Y: "It is a work of art"

Sounds like many real experts agree with Mr. Belly.....

one more...

GM - We're abandoning our "revolutionary" Ultium battery platform for future vehicles and switching to 4680 cylindrical cells....just like that other EV company

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

We were talking about build quality.

Uh, no. "We" weren't. Try reading

 

[mildone]

Uh, no. "We" weren't. Try reading

Uh, yes. You were. That you didn't appear to realize that was what you were talking about, or were deflecting away from his stated point, is is your problem. Try reading.

If you're suggesting that Tesla's build quality is better than Volkswagen's then I'm straight-up callin' the van people cuz you've gone 'round the bend.

I would suggest you look into how Tesla builds vehicles and their plan for the next generation platform, but you won't. You already know everything.

This discussion is narrowly focused.

You implied that Tesla's build quality is better than Volkswagen's.

That makes you a loon.

Assume whatever you want. Learning about Tesla is beneath you. No need for further discussion.

Instead of clarifying your point, or arguing his stated point, you deflected away from discussing build quality and made some laughably condescending statements regarding learning about Tesla, as if (a) that's somehow relevant to build quality and (b) you are qualified to speak about learning anything about cars other than Tesla marketing hyperbole.

I mean, fine - you don't want to talk about build quality. I don't blame you.

But why not just say so? Why instead would you try to be condescending about something for which you played no role?

Tesla employees can be proud of their hard work on manufacturing. You? Not so much.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Wow - sounds like someone with an agenda. So lets summarize:

Ford CEO - "We have a ways to go before we can compete with Tesla...."

VW CEO - "Tesla is producing cars in 1/3 the time it takes us ... we need to do much much better"

Toyota Exec after finally taking apart a Tesla Model Y: "It is a work of art"

Sounds like many real experts agree with Mr. Belly.....

He Is constantly practicing his shit-posting heuristics in this thread.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Methinks alot of the Tesla hate spew comes from people who don't like Elon Musk's persona and what he is doing with Twitter. Not all of it. IMO, Tesla has some quality issues and bugaboos, like all car companies. But a lot of it is an inability to separate the vehicle from the CEO, IMO.

Musk can be infuriating.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Uh, yes. You were. That you didn't appear to realize that was what you were talking about, or were deflecting away from his stated point, is is your problem. Try reading.









Instead of clarifying your point, or arguing his stated point, you deflected away from discussing build quality and made some laughably condescending statements regarding learning about Tesla, as if (a) that's somehow relevant to build quality and (b) you are qualified to speak about learning anything about cars other than Tesla marketing hyperbole.

I mean, fine - you don't want to talk about build quality. I don't blame you.

But why not just say so? Why instead would you try to be condescending about something for which you played no role?

Tesla employees can be proud of their hard work on manufacturing. You? Not so much.

So where did I talk about build quality?

 

[mildone]

So where did I talk about build quality?

It's not all about you. He was obviously talking about about build quality. All you had to do was clarify that you weren't, and didn't want to, talk about build quality. But instead you went into silly condescension mode about "learning about Tesla".

I have no problem with condescension. But it needs to be backed up by education and experience on the subject matter at hand. Not just intelligence. You have the intelligence. But, on the subject of cars, all things automotive, and tech, it's very obvious you would be better served by taking a more humble stance befitting your almost complete lack of education and expertise.

You could learn all about automotive stuff, if learning about stuff other than Tesla wasn't so beneath you. 😉




I put that last part in just for you and your shit-post heuristic about my "shit-posting heuristics" , @WhichReligionIsRight. 😀

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Most following this figured the new CEO would finally put hydrogen to rest and refocus Toyota on a dedicated BEV platform. Nope.

https://insideevs.com/news/657990/toyota-ceo-hydrogen-over-bevs/

Interesting take from a Japanese citizen:
https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-anti-ev-propaganda-in-japan/

 

[RU4Real]

It's all irrelevant. I read this thing the other day, it was about this guy who invented an engine that runs on water! It runs on water, man! But the government, they're trying to take it away from him, they're trying to silence him.

 

[mildone]

Potentially a little better, due to addressing some of the steering ratio problem. But also quite possibly an even dumber idea.

A lot of people struggle to drive well with typically forgiving steering ratios. Tighten that up and bad driver overreactions could result in cars spinning wildly out of control and possibly rolling over at high speeds.

The Lexus RZ's Yoke Is Better Than Tesla's For One Simple Reason | Carscoops

Engineering Explained’s Jason Fenske explains how the RZ’s smart steering works and why it’s better than the a Tesla with a yoke

www.carscoops.com

Yokes make no sense for road cars and I just can't fathom the lunacy behind the idea. It's a terrible solution in search of a problem.

 

[RU4Real]

Potentially a little better, due to addressing some of the steering ratio problem. But also quite possibly an even dumber idea.

A lot of people struggle to drive well with typically forgiving steering ratios. Tighten that up and bad driver overreactions could result in cars spinning wildly out of control and possibly rolling over at high speeds.

The Lexus RZ's Yoke Is Better Than Tesla's For One Simple Reason | Carscoops

Engineering Explained’s Jason Fenske explains how the RZ’s smart steering works and why it’s better than the a Tesla with a yoke

www.carscoops.com

Yokes make no sense for road cars and I just can't fathom the lunacy behind the idea. It's a terrible solution in search of a problem.

Many large aircraft have speed-variable nosewheel steering. In essence, for any given yoke input (nosewheel steering yokes are usually a small wheel mounted on the side panel in big planes) the amount of nosewheel deflection varies depending on ground speed.

It's hard to get used to.

 

[fsg2]

Most following this figured the new CEO would finally put hydrogen to rest and refocus Toyota on a dedicated BEV platform. Nope.

https://insideevs.com/news/657990/toyota-ceo-hydrogen-over-bevs/

Interesting take from a Japanese citizen:
https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-anti-ev-propaganda-in-japan/

Did they?

 

[BROTHERSKINNY]

It's a surprise that Reuters has published an article revealing that the electric vehicle revolution might not be as environmentally friendly as automakers claim. Furthermore, a scratched or slightly damaged battery pack could lead insurance companies to scrap the entire car.

"We're buying electric cars for sustainability reasons," Matthew Avery, research director at automotive risk intelligence company Thatcham Research, said.
Avery pointed out, "an EV isn't very sustainable if you've got to throw the battery away after a minor collision."

A Tesla battery pack costs tens of thousands of dollars and represents a large percentage of the vehicle's price tag. Insurance companies have found that it's uneconomical to replace battery packs if damaged.


Many automotive manufacturers, including Tesla, have made battery packs a structural part of the car to reduce cost products but have shifted costs to consumers and insurers when batteries need to be replaced.

Unless carmakers produce more easily repairable battery packs, there will be a growing number of low-mileage EVs scrapped after collisions.

"The number of cases is going to increase, so the handling of batteries is a crucial point," said Christoph Lauterwasser, managing director of the Allianz Center for Technology, a research institute owned by Allianz.

According to Lauterwasser, the production of EV batteries results in significantly higher CO2 emissions compared to conventional fossil-fuel models. Therefore, if these batteries are discarded with low mileage, it undermines the goal of promoting environmentally-friendly practices.

"If you throw away the vehicle at an early stage, you've lost pretty much all advantage in terms of CO2 emissions," he said.

Sandy Munro, head of Michigan-based Munro & Associates, which analyzes vehicles and advises automakers on how to improve them, said the Model Y battery pack has "zero repairability."

"A Tesla structural battery pack is going straight to the grinder," Munro said.

So much for the EV revolution and the green "circular economy" touted by carmakers, politicians, NGOs, and climate activists... These EVs appear even worse for the environment when compared with traditional petrol-powered vehicles

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/not-esg-friendly-insurers-junk-entire-evs-minor-accidents

 

[mildone]

You drunk already? There's an EV thread into which you should post this completely off-topic post.

 

[BROTHERSKINNY]

You drunk already? There's an EV thread into which you should post this completely off-topic post.

I would, but the mods have permanently banned me from posting relevant EV Articles into that thread, for reasons that escape me. So I have to create a new thread for each article. I think it is stupid but people have a right to see the alternative information to what the EV fanboys post.

 

[Ty Webb]

What's with the dig at Reuters? Why wouldn't they post an article like this?

 

[mildone]

I would, but the mods have permanently banned me from posting relevant EV Articles into that thread, for reasons that escape me. So I have to create a new thread for each article. I think it is stupid but people have a right to see the alternative information to what the EV fanboys post.

Well at least you added "OT" to the topic.

 

[letitrip2]

Methinks alot of the Tesla hate spew comes from people who don't like Elon Musk's persona and what he is doing with Twitter. Not all of it. IMO, Tesla has some quality issues and bugaboos, like all car companies. But a lot of it is an inability to separate the vehicle from the CEO, IMO.

Yep - Having to listen or read about positions that you may not agree with is very difficult for some people. Sad

 

[mildone]

Many large aircraft have speed-variable nosewheel steering. In essence, for any given yoke input (nosewheel steering yokes are usually a small wheel mounted on the side panel in big planes) the amount of nosewheel deflection varies depending on ground speed.

It's hard to get used to.

It makes some sense when the goal is to prevent big steering inputs at high speeds. Which auto manufacturers have done over the years by varying the degree of hydraulic (now electric) assist, right?

But it seems like what Lexus yoke is doing is using BBW software to alter the steering ratio such that the driver doesn't have to remove/replace hands on the wheel in tight turns. And this just seems rife with potential problems.

It's easy to reduce the required steering input for slow speeds (long as power-assist is increased). And easy to increase required steering input for high speeds. But what do they do when the car is moving slowly and accelerates hard out of a turn while the steering wheel is turned and the ratio is smaller?

Get it wrong, between the driver, software, and mechanical positioning of the steering wheel and suspension, and it's a prescription for the driver experiencing massive digital understeer under acceleration. IOWs, the driver might be trying to accelerate into the left lane in a left-side entry on-ramp, but wind up veering sharply into the middle or right lane, across the highway, instead.

So yeah, I'm sure the Lexus engineers have beaten this to death. And I'd love to hear how they think they have it working. Because it seems really complicated to me. Way more complex than just using a wheel instead of a yoke.

 

[mildone]

Yep - Having to listen or read about positions that you may not agree with is very difficult for some people. Sad

🤣

What I want to know is, are we supposed capitalize the 'A' in "ass" in hyphenated use? I ask because I want to congratulate you for finally making to page two of your copy of "Weak-Ass Trolling For Idiots".

Atta boy!

 

[RU4Real]

It makes some sense when the goal is to prevent big steering inputs at high speeds. Which auto manufacturers have done over the years by varying the degree of hydraulic (now electric) assist, right?

But it seems like what Lexus yoke is doing is using BBW software to alter the steering ratio such that the driver doesn't have to remove/replace hands on the wheel in tight turns. And this just seems rife with potential problems.

It's easy to reduce the required steering input for slow speeds (long as power-assist is increased). And easy to increase required steering input for high speeds. But what do they do when the car is moving slowly and accelerates hard out of a turn while the steering wheel is turned and the ratio is smaller?

Get it wrong, between the driver, software, and mechanical positioning of the steering wheel and suspension, and it's a prescription for the driver experiencing massive digital understeer under acceleration. IOWs, the driver might be trying to accelerate into the left lane in a left-side entry on-ramp, but wind up veering sharply into the middle or right lane, across the highway, instead.

So yeah, I'm sure the Lexus engineers have beaten this to death. And I'd love to hear how they think they have it working. Because it seems really complicated to me. Way more complex than just using a wheel instead of a yoke.

I just read a review in C&D of the new BMW 340 and they bitched about the variable-ratio electric steering as being "numb on center" and lacking feedback.

That's always been my complaint about BMWs anyway. The 5 series I had many moons ago was annoying as shit - every time I would reach for the radio controls the car would seek the nearest telephone pole. What they refer to as "the ultimate driving experience" has, to me, simply been "twitchy".

 

[RUevolution36]

Exclusive: EU drafts plan to allow e-fuel combustion engine cars

The European Commission has drafted a plan to allow sales of new cars with internal combustion engines after 2035 if they run only on climate neutral e-fuels, as it tries to resolve a spat with Germany over moves to phase out combustion engine cars.

www.reuters.com

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

I just read a review in C&D of the new BMW 340 and they bitched about the variable-ratio electric steering as being "numb on center" and lacking feedback.

That's always been my complaint about BMWs anyway. The 5 series I had many moons ago was annoying as shit - every time I would reach for the radio controls the car would seek the nearest telephone pole. What they refer to as "the ultimate driving experience" has, to me, simply been "twitchy".

🤣

 

[RU4Real]

🤣

It wasn't funny after the first time, it was just really annoying.

I disliked that car, immensely. Fortunately, it was more or less free. I kept it for a year and sold it to some kid who wanted to know nothing more than how fast it would go.

 

[mildone]

I just read a review in C&D of the new BMW 340 and they bitched about the variable-ratio electric steering as being "numb on center" and lacking feedback.

That's always been my complaint about BMWs anyway. The 5 series I had many moons ago was annoying as shit - every time I would reach for the radio controls the car would seek the nearest telephone pole. What they refer to as "the ultimate driving experience" has, to me, simply been "twitchy".

I'm sure you can remember when the older BMW 3, 5 and 7 series were revered in automotive circles. But, while the raw performance numbers of the newer BMWs are always plenty good, and they are super luxurious cars, the more recent subjective reviews (over the past decade at least) have been more critical, especially for exterior visual design and steering and driver involvement.

Not sure why manufacturers went away from hydraulic steering (cost, I guess). But it seems the numb center issue spanned multiple brands during the transition. I am still not sure why manufacturers feel the need to employ variable-ratio steering in road cars. Like yokes, it seems like a solution looking for a problem.

 

[fsg2]

🤣

What I want to know is, are we supposed capitalize the 'A' in "ass" in hyphenated use? I ask because I want to congratulate you for finally making to page two of your copy of "Weak-Ass Trolling For Idiots".

Atta boy!

Definitely adds impact to a title like that, so I'd keep it caps.🙂

 

[mildone]

Exclusive: EU drafts plan to allow e-fuel combustion engine cars

The European Commission has drafted a plan to allow sales of new cars with internal combustion engines after 2035 if they run only on climate neutral e-fuels, as it tries to resolve a spat with Germany over moves to phase out combustion engine cars.

www.reuters.com

I think that's wise and, in the short term at least, will prove helpful. Of course, I'm biased as I have zero interest in an all-electric sports car and likely never will and e-fuels can preserve the great sports cars of the world, along with motor racing.

Watched a video yesterday of a Model S Plaid on the Nürburgring. While I'm sure it'd be nice feeling the acceleration on straights, watching from outside the car was a snooze-fest. Just not comparable to watching high-end sports cars with high-revving engines, well-tuned exhausts, and dual-clutch or manual transmissions.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

It's a surprise that Reuters has published an article revealing that the electric vehicle revolution might not be as environmentally friendly as automakers claim. Furthermore, a scratched or slightly damaged battery pack could lead insurance companies to scrap the entire car.

A Tesla battery pack costs tens of thousands of dollars and represents a large percentage of the vehicle's price tag. Insurance companies have found that it's uneconomical to replace battery packs if damaged.


Many automotive manufacturers, including Tesla, have made battery packs a structural part of the car to reduce cost products but have shifted costs to consumers and insurers when batteries need to be replaced.

Unless carmakers produce more easily repairable battery packs, there will be a growing number of low-mileage EVs scrapped after collisions.


According to Lauterwasser, the production of EV batteries results in significantly higher CO2 emissions compared to conventional fossil-fuel models. Therefore, if these batteries are discarded with low mileage, it undermines the goal of promoting environmentally-friendly practices.


Sandy Munro, head of Michigan-based Munro & Associates, which analyzes vehicles and advises automakers on how to improve them, said the Model Y battery pack has "zero repairability."


So much for the EV revolution and the green "circular economy" touted by carmakers, politicians, NGOs, and climate activists... These EVs appear even worse for the environment when compared with traditional petrol-powered vehicles

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/not-esg-friendly-insurers-junk-entire-evs-minor-accidents

Munro's quote is taken out of context. He said if any collision is severe enough to damage Tesla's structural battery pack, the vehicle would be scrapped regardless.

 

[mildone]

Definitely a bit of hit-piece to this article, judging by the photo of Musk they chose to use. But still some reasonable questions that some of us asked here revolving around self-driving hardware choices made by Tesla.

Tesla’s Self-Driving Ambitions Are Further and Further Away

A new report from The Washington Post uncovered the corners cut by Elon Musk in his race to make Teslas drive themselves.

jalopnik.com

 

[mildone]

Speaking of Sandy Munro, this article had me laughing out loud.

Tesla Secrets Revealed from Sandy Munro Rant

If you listen closely to Sany Munro, you can glean some secrets about what Tesla is doing that they didn't make obvious during Investor Day.

www.torquenews.com

First, how old is the author? It reads like it was written by a 14 year old. At least he admits to being a shill for Tesla.

Second, if the quotes from Munro are accurate, then either the man (Munro) is being paid to market Tesla, or else he’s gone senile. Either way, if the quotes are accurate, he has zero credibility as an automotive tech reviewer.

 

[RUevolution36]

Speaking of Sandy Munro, this article had me laughing out loud.

Tesla Secrets Revealed from Sandy Munro Rant

If you listen closely to Sany Munro, you can glean some secrets about what Tesla is doing that they didn't make obvious during Investor Day.

www.torquenews.com

First, how old is the author? It reads like it was written by a 14 year old. At least he admits to being a shill for Tesla.

Second, if the quotes from Munro are accurate, then either the man (Munro) is being paid to market Tesla, or else he’s gone senile. Either way, if the quotes are accurate, he has zero credibility as an automotive tech reviewer.

I think my 8 year old nephew can write better than that.

The comment about Pontiac was hilarious. Munro is an idiot.

 

[mildone]

I think my 8 year old nephew can write better than that.

The comment about Pontiac was hilarious. Munro is an idiot.

He might not be an idiot if he’s being well compensated for his fawning advocacy, right? If Musk paid me, say, $30M to do so, I’d shill for him and Tesla for a couple weeks.

Maybe being so hilariously over the top might be Munro’s way of letting us all know he’s doing it for money.

 

[mildone]

Definitely adds impact to a title like that, so I'd keep it caps.🙂

I think you're right.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[letitrip2]

🤣

What I want to know is, are we supposed capitalize the 'A' in "ass" in hyphenated use? I ask because I want to congratulate you for finally making to page two of your copy of "Weak-Ass Trolling For Idiots".

Atta boy!

When you have no facts to support your ridiculous closed minded positions always a good idea to name call and focus on grammar. Very effective.

 

[RU4Real]

I think that article's reference to e-fuels as "climate neutral" is a little aggressive.

The fuels have to be sustainably sourced / carbon neutral in their manufacture, but they still get burned and so still produce greenhouse gases.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

When you have no facts to support your ridiculous closed minded positions always a good idea to name call and focus on grammar. Very effective.

All part of his heuristic process. Few of his posts make substantive points beyond range.