OT: So criticizing WBB is against the law?

[RU4Real]

I was a big fan of the team during my time at RU (early 80s). Of course the women's college basketball landscape was completely different back then, but the team was up-tempo, fast-paced, lots of scoring. I lost track of the team a bit after I left RU but regained interest when CVS was hired.

However, even from her early days I found the style of play under CVS difficult to watch. I put up with it while the team was on the rise and of course when they made it to the final fours, always hoping that the success would build and eventually lead to a more exciting team. Obviously that didn't happen and the team has been on the decline for several years. I can't remember the last time I actually watched a game.

Nothing against CVS, but it's time for some new blood. Personally I don't care if she gets her 1000th win here or somewhere else. It won't happen next year, though, not with the team that is returning.

It would seem that "times have changed", perhaps in a number of ways.

A week or two back, Rhonda Rompola (who I went to high school with) announced that she was retiring after a long and fairly successful career at SMU. By way of explanation she said that the kids had changed, they don't work as hard, they aren't as interested in the game and are more interested in how much of a stipend they get than the actual program, when they're shopping scholarship offers.

It could be that CVS is facing some of the same challenges.

 

[DJ Spanky]

I was a big fan of the team during my time at RU (early 80s). Of course the women's college basketball landscape was completely different back then, but the team was up-tempo, fast-paced, lots of scoring. I lost track of the team a bit after I left RU but regained interest when CVS was hired.

Do you recall those twins who were guards on Grentz's teams back then?

 

[RUScrew85]

In 2014, football showed revenue in excess of expenses of $1,996,036.

Men's hoops showed revenue in excess of expenses of $1,202,291.

Women's hoops showed revenue in excess of expenses of $0, but required $909,000 worth of Direct Institutional Support to do it. Neither of the other two sports received any Direct Institutional Support.

You are a wymyn hater. Get back into (or is out out of?) your herto-cage.

 

[RUScrew85]

The thing that really irks me is the dismissive superior attitude about female athletes who have brought a lot of positives to Rutgers. All the bitching about Title 9 and minimizing of the accomplishments of the women's basketball TEAM makes me angry. We've place a lot of athletes in the WNBA over the years and will do so again this year. The men would love to have such success. While Vivian Stringer is not producing as she has in the past, that does not diminish the achievements and effort of the women on the team. And I agree with PhilaPhans - back up those sweeping statements with facts to back them up. Someone posted that the women's basketball team does not deserve the funding they receive, yet they are arguably the most visible Rutgers team other than football and men's basketball in the national sports landscape.

You're saying making the WNBA is an accomplishment? Hell I could start in that league. Also has the WNBA made $1 in profit yet? I think they are still living off the subsidy provided by the NBA. Let's keep our perspective here on WBB and the WNBA.

 

[cohwx]

Do you recall those twins who were guards on Grentz's teams back then?

Sure, mary and Patty Coyle. What about them?

 

[RU4Real]

You are a wymyn hater. Get back into (or is out out of?) your herto-cage.

Ha! You're funny.

And I love wymyn - and am fortunate enough to have one who actually listens to me once in awhile. Ya know... Unlike SOME people. *cough*

 

[FELONIOUSMONK]

67 I know that but this is their only venue. There are few women on football basketball current events round table
This is their nest. For better or for worse.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Sure, mary and Patty Coyle. What about them?

Yep, I knew one of them was named Patty, but couldn't remember their last names. I just remember they were quite dynamic on that team. I saw a lot of their games, as I was in the Pep Band and we played for a number of their games back then.

 

[DaveSNJ]

So let me see if I understand this 2 of past 3 seasons 20+ wins is going in the wrong direction. This past season 18 wins with a parent dieing mid season.

Pass the pipe.

 

[RU4Real]

So let me see if I understand this 2 of past 3 seasons 20+ wins is going in the wrong direction. This past season 18 wins with a parent dieing mid season.

Pass the pipe.

Wow.

There's a stunning amount of cognitive dissonance on this board.

Once again - it's not about the record of the team. It's about whether the team is worth the continued investment in coaching, given the fact that regardless of how well they do there's basically no attendance and a persistent budget deficit.

Stringer has a succession of NCAA appearances and NIT appearances. The team gets almost a million dollars a year in Direct Institutional Support.

If, as I said previously, you were to cut the current $1.7 million a year in coaching staff compensation to, say, $800k per year, the program's requisite level of Institutional Support would thereby go to zero. We would save $900k per year.

If they went from an average of 19 wins a year to an average of 10 wins per year, nothing would really change. Attendance can't get much worse. In a year in which they won the NIT, ticket sales were $290k. If the attendance were to drop by 50%, that would mean an overall reduction in revenue of $145k. We'd still come out ahead of where we are now, financially.

My point is simple - the coaching staff of the WBB team is not a sound investment. The program is sunk cost. So when CVS retires, we should reduce that cost as much as possible.

 

[MADHAT1]

No matter how you feel about RU WBB , the WBB board mod, those who disagree with the way some feel about WBB ( Pro or Con), we all should feel good that the RU WBB team won its opening game in the WNIT.

Know it's not the tourney any of us really wants, but just for a moment I hope every one that cares about RU will feel proud of the young ladies representing RU in the WNIT.

 

[Abro1975]

If College Sports needs to turn a profit, there might be one or 2 sports at each college, probably less. They are 98 % money losers, and are there for College Name Recognition, Student experience, Alum experience and some other BS reasons.

Actually many here would probably prefer the model the rest of the world employs.... No investment in College Sports at all, just club level, they let the elite athletes be Pro athletes and play for the local club/town/city.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Do you recall those twins who were guards on Grentz's teams back then?

OMG..I had the BIGGEST crush on the young lady that played the 3. Not the Coyle twins or Wicks or Sticks. She may have been left handed but she was very athletic and could really play the game.

 

[needmorecowbell]

I don't care if she says or goes. What I find hilarious is that when a coach sucks, everyone here says spend whatever it takes to fix it. When a coach wins (consistently over many years) she is overpaid.

 

[cohwx]

OMG..I had the BIGGEST crush on the young lady that played the 3. Not the Coyle twins or Wicks or Sticks. She may have been left handed but she was very athletic and could really play the game.

Wicks and Sticks came along after the Coyles were gone (I got to see Sticks, Regina Howard, but missed Wicks by a year). What year are you talking about?

 

[knightfan2000]

You're saying making the WNBA is an accomplishment? Hell I could start in that league. Also has the WNBA made $1 in profit yet? I think they are still living off the subsidy provided by the NBA. Let's keep our perspective here on WBB and the WNBA.

There are no words to even respond to this. We have had some extremely gifted athletes go on to the WNBA and achieve great things, including Sue Wicks and Cappie Pondexter who are two of the top athletes ever to play in that league. The fact that you cannot acknowledge or appreciate that and belittle their accomplishments in such a mean-spirited fashion speaks volumes. I suppose the accomplishments of Carli Lloyd also must be discounted because the womens' soccer team at Rutgers loses money. We should just shut it all down.

 

[WhiteBus]

I don't care if she says or goes. What I find hilarious is that when a coach sucks, everyone here says spend whatever it takes to fix it. When a coach wins (consistently over many years) she is overpaid.

Huh? Obviously you don't see the downfall. Another CVS fan and a Floodie chiming in.

 

[Abro1975]

For those that don't remember Sue Wicks she was a Naismith Player of the Year, and 3 time All American ! Won Pan Am Gold and in the Women's BB HOF.

She holds the Rutgers records for points scored (2,655), rebounds (1,357), scoring average (21.2 ppg), rebounding average (10.9 rpg), field goals made (1,091) and attempted (2,099), free throws made (473) and attempted (641), and blocked shots (293). The scoring and rebounding totals are records for a male or female player at Rutgers.

 

[bac2therac]

RU4Real is basically sayjing just hire someone low cost and be a the bottom of the league, sorry thats not how that works

 

[BeKnighted]

The trend line is not good and the most talented players on the team graduate this year. Recruiting has declined notably and I think she will struggle to get 30 wins over the next 2 years without some quality additions or a Marianne Stanley like assistant who can help her maximize the performance from the talent she has.

So this is a perfect example - some of this is right and some of it is wrong, and it ignores one of the big problems for both the men's and women's programs. The team clearly is losing significant talent this year, but the most talented player on the team probably is Tyler Scaife, who's on track to score the 2nd most points in program history, passing Cappie Pondexter (who was merely an All American and a big star in the WNBA). But, yes, recruiting has declined, and it's a concern.

Part of the problem is something that Hobbs is trying to address, which is the facilities stink. Recruits see facilities as showing what kind of commitment a school has to a program, and it's a problem for all of the sports other than football. For a long time, CVS was able to recruit despite the facilities because of her reputation and success; it's getting harder now.

You didn't say this, so I'm not complaining about your post, but I wanted to add that anyone who thinks the program can be run a lot more cheaply probably doesn't know that much about the going rate for top-quality coaches in WCBB. CVS used to be in the top tier for pay, but I would guess there are 15-20 coaches who make more than her now, and if you, say, cut the pay by 50% the new coach probably would be in the bottom half among P5 schools. Even hot assistants who move up to P5 head coaching jobs are getting more than that.

My take is that the practical answer here is that Hobbs will let CVS finish out her contract. She may have another good year or two in her; she may not. Either way, I think we're going to find out.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

RUChip started a thread about CViv that was immediately moved to the WBB board. In a fit of fascism, the WBB moderator (who I gather allows NO dissent) moved it back here and had it locked.

So what gives? If someone thinks that the WBB is a fiscal black hole, that can't be discussed?

That seems wrong.

Well, boneheads starting threads looking to beat the drum of negativity should be removed. These are young women working hard and trying their best......not, guys on a message board that probably never picked up a basketball in their life attempting to criticize players and a coach.

WBB is facing the same issue as MBB.....piss poor facilities and the best women recruits also want great facilities.

 

[dmd78]

RUChip started a thread about CViv that was immediately moved to the WBB board. In a fit of fascism, the WBB moderator (who I gather allows NO dissent) moved it back here and had it locked.

So what gives? If someone thinks that the WBB is a fiscal black hole, that can't be discussed?

That seems wrong.

Wow, are you for real, RU4Real? Facism? Seriously? I've met you, and I used to respect you, but you've apparently gone off the deep end.

So... first of all, the OP in that thread was a troll, who stated (and I quote here, for the folks here who are commenting about the moved thread without having even read it): "That C. Vivian Stringers contract ends soon. I don't follow WBB or even MBB, but please tell me her job is ending soon at Rutgers. I don't even know the exact figure, but I'm certain she's overpaid. "

Someone moved this thread from the football board, where it originated, to the WBB board. Can anyone here argue seriously that his post was a sincere attempt to discuss women's bball? It looked more like a vent to me. And Stringer's contract and salary have been the subject of serious discussion on the wbball board all season long. You're welcome to debate the topic there, rather than childishly start a new thread here. Not everyone agrees on the answer, for sure, and some of our wbball fans are quite passionate about the team, but isn't that why we have message boards?

A casual glance at this board turns up at least 13 OT topics on the first page, including one about Frank Sinatra, Jr. But one that was "sort of" about RU WBB got moved. Go figure.

 

[oldtimer67]

No one has mentioned that CVS is also the coach with the most wins in the history of Big Ten women's basketball. Just another of her accomplishments.

Some have mentioned a significant drop off in talent next year. I used to be in that school. However, this year's under performance is largely about 2 of those players with "WNBA talent" being major underachievers. Next year may not be that bad in comparison. There is actually a lot of talent on the bench that did not get to play this year because of the seniors, injuries, transfers, etc. I am confident that CVS will exceed 1000 wins in the next 2 years and that will be a major accomplishment.

For those who suggest she can get the 1000th win somewhere else, that is just the kind of publicity we need. I see ESPN now, "C Vivian Stringer, who was fired by Rutgers 2 years ago, becomes just the third women's basketball coach in NCAA history to reach 1000 wins. If you haven't cut off your nose yet, this would be a good time to do it.

 

[dmd78]

They seem like a weird group. Often any criticism will result in the Cviv supports attacking/denigrating MBB and/or other sports.

I encourage you to back that up that general assertion with facts. Many of our most loyal RU WBB fans are also season ticket holders for FB and MBB and support all RU sports.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

Wow, are you for real, RU4Real? Facism? Seriously? I've met you, and I used to respect you, but you've apparently gone off the deep end.

So... first of all, the OP in that thread was a troll, who stated (and I quote here, for the folks here who are commenting about the moved thread without having even read it): "That C. Vivian Stringers contract ends soon. I don't follow WBB or even MBB, but please tell me her job is ending soon at Rutgers. I don't even know the exact figure, but I'm certain she's overpaid. "

Someone moved this thread from the football board, where it originated, to the WBB board. Can anyone here argue seriously that his post was a sincere attempt to discuss women's bball? It looked more like a vent to me. And Stringer's contract and salary have been the subject of serious discussion on the wbball board all season long. You're welcome to debate the topic there, rather than childishly start a new thread here. Not everyone agrees on the answer, for sure, and some of our wbball fans are quite passionate about the team, but isn't that why we have message boards?

A casual glance at this board turns up at least 13 OT topics on the first page, including one about Frank Sinatra, Jr. But one that was "sort of" about RU WBB got moved. Go figure.

That's why I wear it as a badge of honor that RU4Real has me on ignore....lol

 

[dmd78]

So if you have something bad to say about the WBB coach on the WBB board the thread quickly gets sent over to the football board? A lesson out of the Tom McAndrew school for message board mods.

No, the thread was *started* on the FB board, and moved to the WBB board.

 

[dmd78]

i have been bac and forth on CVS for the past few years. They dont like me on the womens board because I am too negative. I am actually a positoid here because I think most of the male football fans just disregard and dont appreciate here so I find myself sticking up for her here yet being critical over there.

That's not fair, bac. Personally, I like you and have no problem with you, and I think most of our WBB fans respect your opinions. I think you're honest and you generally back up your comments with facts. I know that some of our fans are quite passionate, and you might have been told off once in awhile, but I think that you're able to give as good as you get. ;-)

 

[rufeelinit]

So this is a perfect example - some of this is right and some of it is wrong, and it ignores one of the big problems for both the men's and women's programs. The team clearly is losing significant talent this year, but the most talented player on the team probably is Tyler Scaife, who's on track to score the 2nd most points in program history, passing Cappie Pondexter (who was merely an All American and a big star in the WNBA). But, yes, recruiting has declined, and it's a concern.

Part of the problem is something that Hobbs is trying to address, which is the facilities stink. Recruits see facilities as showing what kind of commitment a school has to a program, and it's a problem for all of the sports other than football. For a long time, CVS was able to recruit despite the facilities because of her reputation and success; it's getting harder now.

You didn't say this, so I'm not complaining about your post, but I wanted to add that anyone who thinks the program can be run a lot more cheaply probably doesn't know that much about the going rate for top-quality coaches in WCBB. CVS used to be in the top tier for pay, but I would guess there are 15-20 coaches who make more than her now, and if you, say, cut the pay by 50% the new coach probably would be in the bottom half among P5 schools. Even hot assistants who move up to P5 head coaching jobs are getting more than that.

My take is that the practical answer here is that Hobbs will let CVS finish out her contract. She may have another good year or two in her; she may not. Either way, I think we're going to find out.

Tyler is certainly the top returning player but I thought copper and Hollivay were better and Tyler is certainly no cappie or epiphany regardless of where she might finish statistically. The talent level on the roster for next year looks as low as I can recall in quite some time. Even if cvs is now only one of the top 15-20 top paid coaches our recent performance and recruiting suggest that our current returns are not in line with what she is being paid. I don't mind if she is back next year but she will struggle to reach 1000 wins before her contract expires without an influx of talent.

 

[RU4Real]

Wow, are you for real, RU4Real? Facism? Seriously? I've met you, and I used to respect you, but you've apparently gone off the deep end.

So... first of all, the OP in that thread was a troll, who stated (and I quote here, for the folks here who are commenting about the moved thread without having even read it): "That C. Vivian Stringers contract ends soon. I don't follow WBB or even MBB, but please tell me her job is ending soon at Rutgers. I don't even know the exact figure, but I'm certain she's overpaid. "

Someone moved this thread from the football board, where it originated, to the WBB board. Can anyone here argue seriously that his post was a sincere attempt to discuss women's bball? It looked more like a vent to me. And Stringer's contract and salary have been the subject of serious discussion on the wbball board all season long. You're welcome to debate the topic there, rather than childishly start a new thread here. Not everyone agrees on the answer, for sure, and some of our wbball fans are quite passionate about the team, but isn't that why we have message boards?

A casual glance at this board turns up at least 13 OT topics on the first page, including one about Frank Sinatra, Jr. But one that was "sort of" about RU WBB got moved. Go figure.

You stopped making sense at some point.

1. I didn't post the original thread.
2. I didn't move the original thread.
3. The original thread was, however, moved because it was specifically about women's basketball. You pitched a fit and moved it back here, where it was locked (because you were unable to delete it).

All of which basically amounts to a pissing match between moderators, which you took out on the board, at large.

So don't do that. Just stop. Grow up.

 

[cubuffsdoug]

facts are facts, this program has been losing more money every year, no fans in the stands, a coach who takes her que from the jon chaney.s book of recruitng. in the new age of womens basketball viv still plays the the same boring offence year after year, the game has passed her by wether the kool ade drinkers on the wbb board believe it or not. next year the goal will be to try and make the wnit, she cant recruit shooters because they know that ru is not the place for a pony tailed 3 point scorer. viv is becoming the casey stengel of the mets era, great past but no future.

Just stop. It's clear you really don't follow the WBB. About 2 years ago C Viv changed the offense from boring 40 pts. a game to a fast pace 60+, but defense ended up being tossed to the wind. They may not shot the 3 well, but they can score. These general statements are why perception always trumps reality. Just because you say it after repeating it from someone else doesn't make it true.

 

[e5fdny]

And Stringer's contract and salary have been the subject of serious discussion on the wbball board all season long. You're welcome to debate the topic there, rather than childishly start a new thread here. Not everyone agrees on the answer, for sure, and some of our wbball fans are quite passionate about the team, but isn't that why we have message boards?

A casual glance at this board turns up at least 13 OT topics on the first page, including one about Frank Sinatra, Jr. But one that was "sort of" about RU WBB got moved. Go figure.

If you take a casual glance over on the WBB Board one will find (other than a few following games) most threads that are barely 1 page long.

I hope the next coach resurrects the Lady Knight name and the game goes to a regular size ball.

And if you still want the smaller ball, use a smaller rim.

 

[RULoyal]

Just stop. It's clear you really don't follow the WBB. About 2 years ago C Viv changed the offense from boring 40 pts. a game to a fast pace 60+, but defense ended up being tossed to the wind. They may not shot the 3 well, but they can score. These general statements are why perception always trumps reality. Just because you say it after repeating it from someone else doesn't make it true.

40 points a game? Maybe you meant to write 50? For the last 15 years the team has never averaged less than 50 pts/game and for more than half that time they averaged over 60 pts/game. We run the same crappy offense we always have.

 

[RU4Real]

Wait... is the ball really smaller? Is that actually a thing?

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Wicks and Sticks came along after the Coyles were gone (I got to see Sticks, Regina Howard, but missed Wicks by a year). What year are you talking about?

wow, you're right. I found the old stats...for some reason I had memories of the Coyles playing with them. my bad. But i found my gal..Kristen Foley. At least her stats proved my memory about her quality of play.

Google's an amazing thing...she got hired this season to be asst. coach at Lafayette. By HC Theresa Grentz lol.

 

[cohwx]

I remember Foley suffered a knee injury either her freshman or soph year (she was in one of my classes, remember her hobbling around on crutches). Pretty sure that's who I'm thinking of, it's been a few years.

By the way, what happened to the all time records/rosters that used to be on SK? They are still there for the men's team but I can't find them for the women's team.

 

[RUJohnny99]

For those that don't remember Sue Wicks she was a Naismith Player of the Year, and 3 time All American ! Won Pan Am Gold and in the Women's BB HOF.

She holds the Rutgers records for points scored (2,655), rebounds (1,357), scoring average (21.2 ppg), rebounding average (10.9 rpg), field goals made (1,091) and attempted (2,099), free throws made (473) and attempted (641), and blocked shots (293). The scoring and rebounding totals are records for a male or female player at Rutgers.

The fact that these records are all held by a 50 year old who played 28 years ago under a different coach is a testament to the current coach's recruiting, development, and performance over her 21 seasons.

Are any of these records in reach of any current players?

 

[e5fdny]

Wait... is the ball really smaller? Is that actually a thing?

Yep.

 

[knightfan7]

I have mixed feeling about CVS and women's basketball. Not that it should matter to anyone but here are my thoughts.

CVS is a legendary coach. There's no debate. She was never worth the $1million plus she was being paid. The sport just doesn't justify it unless you're a Pat Summit or Geno where you're drawing sellout crowds and winning national championships. He current salary is more reasonable and I believe there's no valid reason she shouldn't be retained. On the other hand you can't let the 1,000 win goal ever be a deciding factor. She either continues because the current results justify it or she heads off into the sunset.

The dirty little secret is WBB is just not that popular. I'm sure RU isn't the only one where the sport is well into the red. There is a small group of diehards but the average sorts fan doesn't care no matter how much it's promoted. I always laugh when posters say RU is known for WBB. It may be true in their little circle but never has been to John Q Public except for a short time nearly a decade ago. Even then it was thanks to Imus, not the product.

I find it a contradiction that WBB fans desperately want others to follow the sport but as soon as you have something to say that's not all sunshine and rainbows you are told you can't voice an opinion because you don't go to games. If you want Women's sports to be taken seriously, you have to play by the same rules as Men's sports do.

 

[e5fdny]

The dirty little secret is WBB is just not that popular. I'm sure RU isn't the only one where the sport is well into the red. There is a small group of diehards but the average sorts fan doesn't care no matter how much it's promoted. I always laugh when posters say RU is known for WBB. It may be true in their little circle but never has been to John Q Public except for a short time nearly a decade ago. Even then it was thanks to Imus, not the product.

I find it a contradiction that WBB fans desperately want others to follow the sport but as soon as you have something to say that's not all sunshine and rainbows you are told you can't voice an opinion because you don't go to games. If you want Women's sports to be taken seriously, you have to play by the same rules as Men's sports do.

And the prime example of this is a 3 page thread about it on the FB Board. LOL

 

[mdk01]

The fact that these records are all held by a 50 year old who played 28 years ago under a different coach is a testament to the current coach's recruiting, development, and performance over her 21 seasons.

Are any of these records in reach of any current players?

The counterpoint would be to ask whether those records were set in any seasons that ended in the NCAA finals. Deeper team talent sometimes means that individual stats are less stellar.