OT: So criticizing WBB is against the law?

[DaveSNJ]

I don't have time for your attempt at explaining that win loss record is monetarily quantifiable.

You call coach's salaries "an investment".

It's only an investment if, at the end of the day (or season, or contract, or whatever) the team in question has revenue that exceeds expenses, absent any subsidy from the school.

That's the whole point of this thread.

Listen carefully:

Women's basketball will NEVER be profitable under the current model.

So why pay more than we have to to support it?

No worries - continue to be an obtuse moron - your call.

Listen carefully, LOL, your entire argument is flawed and you don't realize it which is the funny part.

Expenses > budget but you throw out Salary. Salary is tied to budget. Salary is based on coaching performance which is measured by guess what - you got it - for the most part record.

Moron!

 

[e5fdny]

1) If you are doing an ROI - the way you are thinking is 2 dimensional. How are you coming up with your ROI? Are you including exposure based on what I am reading from you it doesn't look like it with the comment - attendance and (salary) budget deficit. Thinking is flawed because the analysis is incomplete.

What do you mean by the bolded?

Just asking since I am really not sure what you mean.

 

[RU4Real]

No worries - continue to be an obtuse moron - your call.

Listen carefully, LOL, your entire argument is flawed and you don't realize it which is the funny part.

Expenses > budget but you throw out Salary. Salary is tied to budget. Salary is based on coaching performance which is measured by guess what - you got it - for the most part record.

Moron!

You can call me all the names you want, but you'll still be wrong. Wins and losses are not part of the balance sheet.

And Brenda Freese at Maryland makes half as much money as Stringer, has a much better winning percentage and is ranked #4 in the country.

So, yeah... You should quit now.

 

[DaveSNJ]

You can call me all the names you want, but you'll still be wrong. Wins and losses are not part of the balance sheet.

And Brenda Freese at Maryland makes half as much money as Stringer, has a much better winning percentage and is ranked #4 in the country.

So, yeah... You should quit now.

Wow, I explained it above.

Record is not part of the balance sheet correct. However salary is, and salary is based in part on coaches record.

 

[RU4Real]

Wow, I explained it above.

Record is not part of the balance sheet correct. However salary is, and salary is based in part on coaches record.

And there are coaches with better records who make less money.

This isn't working for you.

 

[DaveSNJ]

What do you mean by the bolded?

Just asking since I am really not sure what you mean.

Exposure - tournaments, games on TV, articles in media, special events, exposure = advertising. Of course negative exposure is not good, devalues the product just like consistent losing could be seen as negative exposure.

Examples - Flutie effect on BC enrollment in the 80s, generate positive exposure and still does the next effect was increase in applications and academic prestige from it because they could be more selective. In turn effecting in a positive way alumni giving. Appalachian State win against Michigan - App St realized an increase in applications based on the win.

Athletic departments will pay for top coaches in Football and MBB for the purpose of creating positive exposure, generating positive cash flow to protect and fund for Olympic sports. There are some ADs that include WBB in that mix. Perhaps the AD that brought Stringer in was of that mold.

 

[RU4Real]

Exposure - tournaments, games on TV, articles in media, special events, exposure = advertising. Of course negative exposure is not good, devalues the product just like consistent losing could be seen as negative exposure.

Examples - Flutie effect on BC enrollment in the 80s, generate positive exposure and still does the next effect was increase in applications and academic prestige from it because they could be more selective. In turn effecting in a positive way alumni giving. Appalachian State win against Michigan - App St realized an increase in applications based on the win.

Athletic departments will pay for top coaches in Football and MBB for the purpose of creating positive exposure, generating positive cash flow to protect and fund for Olympic sports. There are some ADs that include WBB in that mix. Perhaps the AD that brought Stringer in was of that mold.

2015 Rutgers Women's Basketball

Media Rights: $0

NCAA Distributions: $0

Sports Camp Revenues: $0

Please show your work re: "exposure".

 

[DaveSNJ]

And there are coaches with better records who make less money.

This isn't working for you.

Separate argument, you still don't understand. You are just arguing to argue and make no sense.

As I stated above for the umpteenth time - how RU negotiated the contract is not on the agent/coach that is on RU. RU attempted to fix this last year.

You said record does not impact budget.

I said record in part influences salary and salary is part of budget. What don't you understand.

 

[DaveSNJ]

2015 Rutgers Women's Basketball

Media Rights: $0

NCAA Distributions: $0

Sports Camp Revenues: $0

Please show your work re: "exposure".

I've got real work to do and I've already led you to water - drink from it yourself or not its on you.

 

[RU4Real]

Separate argument, you still don't understand. You are just arguing to argue and make no sense.

As I stated above for the umpteenth time - how RU negotiated the contract is not on the agent/coach that is on RU. RU attempted to fix this last year.

You said record does not impact budget.

I said record in part influences salary and salary is part of budget. What don't you understand.

Does Suzy Merchant's record influence her salary?

She's been coaching at 16th ranked Michigan State for 13 years and has a better record than Vivian Stringer. Her salary is $340,000 per year.

 

[DaveSNJ]

NM

 

[BeKnighted]

Tyler is certainly the top returning player but I thought copper and Hollivay were better and Tyler is certainly no cappie or epiphany regardless of where she might finish statistically.

You can make a legitimate argument for Copper, but not for Hollivay. Scaife has outscored her by close to 10 points a game, shot better from the line (which a big needs to do) and of course had way more assists (2nd most on the team) and steals (3rd most). Scaife is good on the boards for a little guard (not as good as Hollivay, but that's to be expected). There's a reason that Scaife and Copper were 2nd team all-B1G and Hollivay was an honorable mention.

 

[e5fdny]

Exposure - tournaments, games on TV, articles in media, special events, exposure = advertising. Of course negative exposure is not good, devalues the product just like consistent losing could be seen as negative exposure.

Examples - Flutie effect on BC enrollment in the 80s, generate positive exposure and still does the next effect was increase in applications and academic prestige from it because they could be more selective. In turn effecting in a positive way alumni giving. Appalachian State win against Michigan - App St realized an increase in applications based on the win.

Athletic departments will pay for top coaches in Football and MBB for the purpose of creating positive exposure, generating positive cash flow to protect and fund for Olympic sports. There are some ADs that include WBB in that mix. Perhaps the AD that brought Stringer in was of that mold.

OK.

Thanks.

But for WBB other than winning a NC there ain't so much of it. TV is controlled for the most part by the BTN and since we aren't one of the big girls now I doubt we'll be on any network besides the BTN.

As I have said in these types of threads as it relates to FB...Rutgers might just have to win to move the needle around here. If we WIN, even more so. If we ever WIN, well I want to see what's on the other side of that bridge when we finally cross it. But I imagine it will be something pretty nice.

But for WBB, if we ever do WIN (which you might say has happened already with a place in the NC game), the exposure thing you're talking about won't be much...other than us on here, not many are/ever talk about it.

Which I think is the jist of the "moron's" argument...even with a NC in WBB, what does Rutgers gain? I submit (and I think a few others agree in the thread) not enough ROI to justify the money spent.

 

[BeKnighted]

The fact that these records are all held by a 50 year old who played 28 years ago under a different coach is a testament to the current coach's recruiting, development, and performance over her 21 seasons.

Are any of these records in reach of any current players?

Actually, two of the Sue Wicks records have been broken by CVS players, including the record for blocks that was listed in the original post, broken by Rachel Hollivay this year. (The other one is steals, which actually has been beaten by two different CVS players.)

For perspective on Wicks, she doesn't just hold the RU women's basketball scoring and rebounding records, she holds the scoring and rebounding records for both men and women. She is one of the all-time best players in women's college basketball history, certainly in the top 25 and maybe better than that.

One reason that the Wicks records have stood so long is that Wicks played on teams that pushed the pace a lot. Defense has gotten a lot more sophisticated, and of course CVS always has been a defense-first coach who prefers a slower pace. Sort of like the comment about how Dean Smith was the only one who could hold Michael Jordan under 20 points a night, it's harder to score a lot of points when the game is in the 60s than when it's in the 80s.

And, of course, when you talk about player development, you have to consider the RU players who've gone on to have careers in the WNBA, and there are a lot of them from the entire CVS tenure. (To name a few: Sutton-Brown, Pondexter, Prince, Carson, Ajavon, Vaughn and Laney, and I've left off a bunch of names.)

 

[RU4Real]

OK.

Thanks.

But for WBB other than winning a NC there ain't so much of it. TV is controlled for the most part by the BTN and since we aren't one of the big girls now I doubt we'll be on any network besides the BTN.

As I have said in these types of threads as it relates to FB...Rutgers might just have to win to move the needle around here. If we WIN, even more so. If we ever WIN, well I want to see what's on the other side of that bridge when we finally cross it. But I imagine it will be something pretty nice.

But for WBB, if we ever do WIN (which you might say has happened already with a place in the NC game), the exposure thing you're talking about won't be much...other than us on here, not many are/ever talk about it.

Which I think is the jist of the "moron's" argument...even with a NC in WBB, what does Rutgers gain? I submit (and I think a few others agree in the thread) not enough ROI to justify the money spent.

Precisely.

The reality is that any revenue enhancements realized by an outright WBB Final 4 win would be more than consumed by CVS's contract inducements.

As for "exposure", what Dave isn't speculating on is "how many students are going to come to Rutgers (who aren't female basketball players) because of the success of the team?"

Ten? Twenty?

Direct Institutional Support is now over a million dollars a year. There's no math that brings an enrollment revenue increase specific to the goodwill of the WBB program to that level.

 

[BeKnighted]

Does Suzy Merchant's record influence her salary?

She's been coaching at 16th ranked Michigan State for 13 years and has a better record than Vivian Stringer. Her salary is $340,000 per year.

Well, first, Merchant has been at MSU for 9 years, not 13. She replaced the coach who left for Duke after RU beat both Michigan State and Duke in the tournament in 2007. And Merchant's base salary in 2014-15 was $387,000, while CVS has a base salary of $550,000.

Also, when you say "better record," I'm curious what you mean exactly. Merchant has made the Sweet 16 exactly once in her career, and didn't take the Spartans to the postseason at all last season. Before she went to MSU, she had 1 NCAA bid and 2 WNIT bids in her career.

 

[RU4Real]

Well, first, Merchant has been at MSU for 9 years, not 13. She replaced the coach who left for Duke after RU beat both Michigan State and Duke in the tournament in 2007. And Merchant's base salary in 2014-15 was $387,000, while CVS has a base salary of $550,000.

Also, when you say "better record," I'm curious what you mean exactly. Merchant has made the Sweet 16 exactly once in her career, and didn't take the Spartans to the postseason at all last season. Before she went to MSU, she had 1 NCAA bid and 2 WNIT bids in her career.

Sorry, you're right - 9 years. She's coached in 13 tournament games in those 9 years.

By "better record" I mean, of course, winning percentage - .673 to Stringer's .665.

Your salary numbers are disputed by SBNation, which lists "guaranteed salaries". The article also had this to say about CVS:

"C. Vivian Stringer had been making about $900,000 a year, but took a smaller guaranteed salary in order to unlock bigger bonuses when the team does really well. She's a good bet to be the highest paid coach in the conference in any given year."

 

[17Q66]

I would trade any tradition of success in Rutgers Women's Basketball -- past, present or future -- for perennial top-10 programs in Women's Volleyball, Lacrosse and Field Hockey.

 

[RUchip]

There is no such thing as an "Anonymod" when a ban takes place. But you can just start making stuff up about the ban. You want to complain in public, I'll respond in public. I banned chip. It was for the "Please start more stupid useless threads." post towards BeKnighted on the WBB who said absolute nothing towards him. Then I read the CViv "I don't know anything about the situation but I'm just going to start crapping on the program and tell you she's overpaid." Constant negativity without discussion will lead to a ban, no matter what board it's posted to, especially when you have 3-4 other warnings on your profile already. Yes, I didn't know where the thread started. I won't deny that, but it doesn't change my opinion.

Are you freakin kidding me. Read my last 20 posts and tell me where the "constant negativity" is. I'm happier than a pig in sh..over Ash and what he is doing for the program. Am I objective? Yes, and people on here say a lot worse and even curse. To ban me for 3 days is juvenile. Because I called another thread weeks ago stupid you can me for 3 days when I start a thread to ask about WBB which I clearly stated " I don't follow" and I asked a simple question. The censorship on here is getting out of control. Am I allowed to say Flood was a terrible coach or is that a 7 day ban?

 

[RU4Real]

Are you freakin kidding me. Read my last 20 posts and tell me where the "constant negativity" is. I'm happier than a pig in sh..over Ash and what he is doing for the program. Am I objective? Yes, and people on here say a lot worse and even curse. To ban me for 3 days is juvenile. Because I called another thread weeks ago stupid you can me for 3 days when I start a thread to ask about WBB which I clearly stated " I don't follow" and I asked a simple question. The censorship on here is getting out of control. Am I allowed to say Flood was a terrible coach or is that a 7 day ban?

@RutgersRaRa is the judge in these matters, but I think this might be "begging the question". :)

 

[DJ Spanky]

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Will CVS retire before she hits 70 in 2018? And a belated Happy Birthday to her (March 16).

 

[BeKnighted]

And Brenda Freese at Maryland makes half as much money as Stringer, has a much better winning percentage and is ranked #4 in the country.

So, yeah... You should quit now.

Frese made more than $1 million last year, a lot more than Stringer. It took about 2 seconds to find that information.

Seriously, if you want to make an argument about salaries, check your facts. It's not hard.

 

[RU4Real]

Frese made more than $1 million last year, a lot more than Stringer. It took about 2 seconds to find that information.

Seriously, if you want to make an argument about salaries, check your facts. It's not hard.

That million dollars in 2014 includes income from sports camps, endorsement deals and speaking engagements, among other things. Those things aren't contractual, with respect to the school.

I found one article that said she made (from UM) about $500k in salary and bonuses for 2014 and another that said she made $700,000. Both said that her base salary was $382,000 - as does Maryland's public employee database.

 

[BeKnighted]

Sorry, you're right - 9 years. She's coached in 13 tournament games in those 9 years.

By "better record" I mean, of course, winning percentage - .673 to Stringer's .665.

Your salary numbers are disputed by SBNation, which lists "guaranteed salaries". The article also had this to say about CVS:

"C. Vivian Stringer had been making about $900,000 a year, but took a smaller guaranteed salary in order to unlock bigger bonuses when the team does really well. She's a good bet to be the highest paid coach in the conference in any given year."

SB Nation would be wrong, then. See my post just above about what Brenda Frese made last year. Since the information came from a Baltimore Sun public records request, I'm going to guess the Sun is right and SB Nation is wrong.

As for winning percentage, Wikipedia says Merchant has a .653 career winning percentage v. .728 for Stringer. The vast majority of Stringer's wins came as a coach of major conference teams, while half of Merchant's wins came at Eastern Michigan. But of course winning percentage doesn't really mean very much when compared to postseason performance. Since Merchant came to Michigan State, she has a better winning percentage than CVS, but CVS has an Elite 8, a Sweet 16 and a WNIT championship and Merchant has 1 Sweet 16. Other their careers, well, you wouldn't want to be Merchant in that comparison.

 

[MADHAT1]

Frese made more than $1 million last year, a lot more than Stringer. It took about 2 seconds to find that information.

Seriously, if you want to make an argument about salaries, check your facts. It's not hard.

 

[BeKnighted]

That million dollars in 2014 includes income from sports camps, endorsement deals and speaking engagements, among other things. Those things aren't contractual, with respect to the school.

I found one article that said she made (from UM) about $500k in salary and bonuses for 2014 and another that said she made $700,000. Both said that her base salary was $382,000 - as does Maryland's public employee database.

So, in other words, that other money doesn't count. I get it.

 

[MADHAT1]

So, in other words, that other money doesn't count. I get it.

Maybe you should get the intent:
please check all the facts before you make a claim.

 

[dmd78]

Ah! Weekend fun rescued.

So... Does the WBB mod get banned for her hit and run attack on me?

geez... you're truly delusional now. you start a thread mainly to complain about me (the kind of meta-discussion that's explicitly disallowed here anyway), and I'm not allowed to respond to you? and how, exactly, is that a "hit and run"? (I can only check the boards once a day.)

p.s. in case there's anyone doubt... I didn't issue the ban. All I did was move the thread back to the original board. I'm still trying to understand why that's a federal offense.

 

[dmd78]

Are you freakin kidding me. Read my last 20 posts and tell me where the "constant negativity" is. I'm happier than a pig in sh..over Ash and what he is doing for the program. Am I objective? Yes, and people on here say a lot worse and even curse. To ban me for 3 days is juvenile. Because I called another thread weeks ago stupid you can me for 3 days when I start a thread to ask about WBB which I clearly stated " I don't follow" and I asked a simple question. The censorship on here is getting out of control. Am I allowed to say Flood was a terrible coach or is that a 7 day ban?

Okay, i was trying to stay out of this back-and-forth, but your comment here about a "simple question" has me confused. Here's what you actually said:

Please tell me ... "That C. Vivian Stringers contract ends soon. I don't follow WBB or even MBB, but please tell me her job is ending soon at Rutgers. I don't even know the exact figure, but I'm certain she's overpaid.

If you were, in fact, asking a "simple question" , then it appears that the only answer you were willing to accept was "Yes". Is that a correct assessment?

 

[oldtimer67]

Maybe you should get the intent:
please check all the facts before you make a claim.

What is this about intent? This whole thread is not about intent, it is about agendas. Some posters (very few) admit it is an attempt to get more money for MBB, most don't. Other than that, what is the big deal about RU spending an extra million dollars on a sport that for the last 40 years has brought more success and pride to RU than any other?

You will realize how delusional these people are when you see how they can blame WBB for the disaster of MBB.

 

[RU4Real]

SB Nation would be wrong, then. See my post just above about what Brenda Frese made last year. Since the information came from a Baltimore Sun public records request, I'm going to guess the Sun is right and SB Nation is wrong.

As for winning percentage, Wikipedia says Merchant has a .653 career winning percentage v. .728 for Stringer. The vast majority of Stringer's wins came as a coach of major conference teams, while half of Merchant's wins came at Eastern Michigan. But of course winning percentage doesn't really mean very much when compared to postseason performance. Since Merchant came to Michigan State, she has a better winning percentage than CVS, but CVS has an Elite 8, a Sweet 16 and a WNIT championship and Merchant has 1 Sweet 16. Other their careers, well, you wouldn't want to be Merchant in that comparison.

I read the article in the Sun. It very clearly says, in paragraph 3 or 4, that the total includes camp revenues, speaking engagements, etc.

 

[vkj91]

So, in other words, that other money doesn't count. I get it.

IF the money doesn't come from the school than no it shouldn't count.

 

[RU4Real]

So, in other words, that other money doesn't count. I get it.

Right. Precisely. The bottom-line question (and I apologize if this wasn't clear) is "is the school spending too much money". If, like Frese, the school pays out something around 400k and other sources kick in another 600k, then that's awesome.

You'll note that in the same Sun article they pointed out that Randy Edsall, who made well over a million dollars in '14, was paid less than 500k by the state. A lot of big-time contracts are structured that way. To the late DaveSNJ's point, that's where the monetary value of a coach's reputation and performance is realized.

But that's not the case with Rutgers. Per the NCAA filing, virtually all of CVS's money comes from RU.

 

[DaveSNJ]

Exposure does not mean it derives from winning a national championship. When did BC win one. How much does it cost for a 30 second spot on ESPN, how many times has the flute pass been shown or discussed on espn.

Little bon Jovi on several morning shows, Empire state building lit red for RU = free exposure.

 

[RU4Real]

Exposure does not mean it derives from winning a national championship. When did BC win one. How much does it cost for a 30 second spot on ESPN, how many times has the flute pass been shown or discussed on espn.

Little bon Jovi on several morning shows, Empire state building lit red for RU = free exposure.

Again, in order for that "exposure" to be relevant to this discussion it has to be quantifiable. To this point, you've made no attempt to do that.

 

[e5fdny]

Exposure does not mean it derives from winning a national championship. When did BC win one. How much does it cost for a 30 second spot on ESPN, how many times has the flute pass been shown or discussed on espn.

Little bon Jovi on several morning shows, Empire state building lit red for RU = free exposure.

He went to WBB games too? Because that is the exposure we're talking about.

Was the ESB lit up for the WBB NC game? I honestly don't remember.

 

[RU Cheese]

Exposure does not mean it derives from winning a national championship. When did BC win one. How much does it cost for a 30 second spot on ESPN, how many times has the flute pass been shown or discussed on espn.

Little bon Jovi on several morning shows, Empire state building lit red for RU = free exposure.

your comparing one of the most famous plays in CFB history to a mediocre women's basketball program? in terms of generating "exposure"? Ummmm ok

 

[NotInRHouse]

I do believe the ESB was lit up for NC in 2007.

I was a senior at RU then. Now I'm 30. Therein lies the issue. A year or two after that, UConn began dominating the entire sport and we became non competitive with them. We lost to SHU and Princeton. We cannot keep up in the B1G which is really not known for WBB.

The reality is in WBB coming in Maryland and RU should have been dominating and we are in the WNIT.

It is just not deniable, CVS has slipped. If we do not return to the tourney next year there needs to be an evaluation of the direction of the program.

 

[e5fdny]

I do believe the ESB was lit up for NC in 2007.

I was a senior at RU then. Now I'm 30. Therein lies the issue. A year or two after that, UConn began dominating the entire sport and we became non competitive with them. We lost to SHU and Princeton. We cannot keep up in the B1G which is really not known for WBB.

The reality is in WBB coming in Maryland and RU should have been dominating and we are in the WNIT.

It is just not deniable, CVS has slipped. If we do not return to the tourney next year there needs to be an evaluation of the direction of the program.

And this is what (I think anyway) the discussion is really about.

No one is saying get rid of WBB. All of us on here want Rutgers to be good at everything, on and off the court/field. And at one point it seemed (whether true or not) this was the only thing going right. So you can see why some are discussing what we need to do to get back or at least get better.