Why only start at 21-22 season and add 25-27 seasons that have not even happened? The premise of the OP is to fire Pike after this season.
Poll: IF we miss the tournament, is it time to fire Pike?
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Why only start at 21-22 season and add 25-27 seasons that have not even happened? The premise of the OP is to fire Pike after this season.
he’s won one single ncaa tournament game in his time here, he hasn’t gotten all that much done
And the premise of the post I responded to talked about the view of Pike by the coaching community.
My questions clearly asked a different question than the OP.
Hence they I added a hypothetical future years - to see if the view by the coaching community would change.
The post you responded to referred to how the coaching community may feel about Pike now, not 3 years from now. Obviously they may feel differently depending on future results. Pike is here for 9 years IMO broken down into thirds. The first 3 were building from a level representing essentially one of the worst in the NCAA. Next 3 years were built into a tourney level team. Most recent 3 years have been bumpier. Some here are clamoring for him to be fired now or after the season. I am not among them at this point.
The infrastructure is there, give Pike a lot of credit for that. A lot of new, but no where near the same thing as when Pike started. Plus, it seems to be all new with Pike year to year now anyways. How much different would it really be? Let's be real here.
My issues with Pike are largely looking forward and is he the best guy for that task. He's done a lot for Rutgers looking backwards. But my evaluation and thought process as a decision maker is based on go-forward only. Otherwise it is just emotional decision making, and that usually doesn't lead to the best business decision.
The lack of leadership aspect definitely sucks and is typical Rutgers. Certainly not a selling point, but in reality this conversation is another year out and we better have leadership figured out by then.
In terms of resources, if as you say we are/can be middle of the pack B1G, that would put us well into the upper echelon of all schools playing the sport. I don't buy that it is a resource issue. As inept as Rutgers may be, how many schools have more media money coming in as we do. That $$$ is the ultimate equilizer of our ineptitude. And revenue sharing will only help tilt that further advantage even further in our favor.
It's a desirable job and Pike deserves much of the credit for that. To stick with something not working because you are afraid you can't do better is a sad mentality too many here suffer from though. I honestly hope Pike turns this around. It's a colossal disaster if he doesn't and it's no fun losing and being right. Would much rather win and be wrong.
I think this is a great debate, both sides presenting their case well. Reading through some of it though I feel many, maybe more than half, of RU fans are just fine with being mediocre using decades of doormat pain to justify mediocrity being embraced. The other almost half just wants to hit the next level, not be satisfied with crawling out of the gutter. I’ve been a fan since 1983 so I see both points.
As for Pike as a coach the poster who said high floor low ceiling is spot on. He’s just ok. He got extremely lucky to recruit/have a GREAT core group of guys (Geo, RHJ, Myles, Young etc) that could play well together and who stayed together when Covid allowed some an extra year. It was a perfect storm. It gave everyone the perception he could recruit and develop underrecruited talent. But as we’ve seen with all the recruiting misses since (quite a few pre NIL) and lack of development, it’s not really his specialty. Add in recruiting the portal now and it’s become magnified. Everyone blames NIL but was it really? Miller, Reiber, Oskar, Jaden Jones, Griffiths, Chol, Agee as a transfer, Noah….there’s more. He also has coaching flaws, personnel rotations, plays off time outs, offensive schemes. Everyone remembers the shot Ohio State shouldn’t have had to steal a win from us, but do you remember how bad the last full court defensive possession was Mismanaged? Or the end of at Minnesota. And others, when to press when not to. When to foul when not to.
All that said he’s a nice guy who did rebuild the program, be it thru a perfect storm or his personality and defense first mentality. And the points about what RU won’t spend are very valid. He very well might be the best we can do and sadly we have to live in mediocrity.
To me the blame lies squarely on University leadership, or lack there of. No President. No AD. We’re a mess. We can’t get out of our own way. The old RU Screw.
I remember back to Bob Wentzel. He dug us out of a rut too. Two quick ncaa appearances and then….nothing. And the decades that followed were tragic. History repeats itself. Ideally I’d like to see us commit to BIG time basketball. Take the next step. We were so fortunate to get in the B1G, DO SOMETHING WITH THAT. Either pony up and get a proven coach whatever it costs or commit financially to the program, launch a massive NiL campaign and get him the war chest some say is all Pike needs. But please don’t just can him and start all over again with another low major up and coming coach and watch the wheel go round and round. Disappointingly though it will probably just stay status quo with neither side happy. Those who want more won’t get to the next level and those who accept mediocrity (but really would rather win more) will have it til it rots under Pike and we go back into the Jordan, Littlepage part of the cycle.
Either way we all do really care about Rutgers and suffer as fans together craving little pieces of joy.
As for Pike as a coach the poster who said high floor low ceiling is spot on. He’s just ok. He got extremely lucky to recruit/have a GREAT core group of guys (Geo, RHJ, Myles, Young etc) that could play well together and who stayed together when Covid allowed some an extra year. It was a perfect storm. It gave everyone the perception he could recruit and develop underrecruited talent. But as we’ve seen with all the recruiting misses since (quite a few pre NIL) and lack of development, it’s not really his specialty. Add in recruiting the portal now and it’s become magnified. Everyone blames NIL but was it really? Miller, Reiber, Oskar, Jaden Jones, Griffiths, Chol, Agee as a transfer, Noah….there’s more. He also has coaching flaws, personnel rotations, plays off time outs, offensive schemes. Everyone remembers the shot Ohio State shouldn’t have had to steal a win from us, but do you remember how bad the last full court defensive possession was Mismanaged? Or the end of at Minnesota. And others, when to press when not to. When to foul when not to.
All that said he’s a nice guy who did rebuild the program, be it thru a perfect storm or his personality and defense first mentality. And the points about what RU won’t spend are very valid. He very well might be the best we can do and sadly we have to live in mediocrity.
To me the blame lies squarely on University leadership, or lack there of. No President. No AD. We’re a mess. We can’t get out of our own way. The old RU Screw.
I remember back to Bob Wentzel. He dug us out of a rut too. Two quick ncaa appearances and then….nothing. And the decades that followed were tragic. History repeats itself. Ideally I’d like to see us commit to BIG time basketball. Take the next step. We were so fortunate to get in the B1G, DO SOMETHING WITH THAT. Either pony up and get a proven coach whatever it costs or commit financially to the program, launch a massive NiL campaign and get him the war chest some say is all Pike needs. But please don’t just can him and start all over again with another low major up and coming coach and watch the wheel go round and round. Disappointingly though it will probably just stay status quo with neither side happy. Those who want more won’t get to the next level and those who accept mediocrity (but really would rather win more) will have it til it rots under Pike and we go back into the Jordan, Littlepage part of the cycle.
Either way we all do really care about Rutgers and suffer as fans together craving little pieces of joy.
Deserved or not, there is absolutely zero chance of Pike getting fired after this season no matter what happens. Even if we lost out. It's not happening. Especially with no leadership in place. It's a non point to debate. Should he be fired is a separate question, along with what is a realistic time frame for when it could actually happen, assuming things continue to flatline as they have for several years now. I think a year from now is fair game. We'll waste another season, but I think everyone at Rutgers is ok with that
What will it take? Another 3 years of futility? At that point exactly what will be needed to attract a new coach? My view is Pike's ceiling is very low. He has never attained true success here other than an occasional signature win. Touney appearances are rare and after this year the future looks bleak!
Do you realize how much money the athletic department is losing? That is before we are going to be "forced" to pay players.
I assume you are a smart guy.....I think if you knew all the facts about us and where we stand with all the programs you want to be on equal footing your conclusion might be a bit different.
why? because I want us to be better? Pike raised the expectations for the program and now he has to live up to them
I would be willing to guess we are in the lower 1/3 in the B1G in terms of "financial" position of the basketball program going forward.
Play around with this and you will get it
www.knightnewhousedata.org
Play around with this and you will get it
Big Ten Conference | College Athletics Database
Anyone who really knows our situation, and has been a fan for 20+ years would not even have the thought of Pike going enter their mind.
I would be willing to guess we are in the lower 1/3 in the B1G in terms of "financial" position of the basketball program going forward.
Play around with this and you will get it
Big Ten Conference | College Athletics Database
Think we’re also dead last in NIL.
ok, granted I have only been for about 12 years and I understand fans of the program were suffering for much longer than that, but just because we were bad for a long time before does not mean we need to tie ourselves forever to the first coach who gives us some semblance of success if he can’t maintain it. we aren’t a small time program anymore, we’re in one of the two biggest athletic conferences in the country now - it’s time to act like it.
Hello, revenue sharing ring a bill? Our NIL is increasing starting next season. Face it, you guys are out of excuses if he does not go to the tournament this year with 2 NBA lottery picks or next year (a complete unknown and he will need to rebuild 80% of his roster again, which funny enough people are using as an excuse as to why we should not fire a HC because the next guy would have to start from scratch).
RU athletics? Or Rutgers mens hoops? If you are worried about us being in the red let's cut all women's sports tomorrow and 80% of mens sports. What a terrible argument as to why we cannot fire Pike in year 10.
our fanbase’s psyche is so damaged that we just assume we’ll make a bad hire. and I’m not assuming we’ll make a good one either but I’m willing to take the chance rather than sit idle making the NIT every year
We are poor in all sports because that is what our fans and alums ultimately pay for. Big complainers, alligator arms for giving.
Once again you miss the narrative. The athletic department is losing money because of our non revenue sports we are forced to run due to title 9. Not football or mbb. If the school fails to support those revenue producing programs, the entire thing crumbles. Again, we have as much or more media money coming in as any school in the country. That fact should be enough.
There are different tiers (and resources) within the conference. Just because we’re in the same conference as Ohio State and Michigan doesn’t mean we’re the same or can run our department the same.
I hate this whole lottery pick......lottery picks are players with potential to succeed in the NBA. That is VERY different than succeeding right now in the B1G.
There are either 0,1 or 2 players I would rather have right now if I am a GM in the NBA draft. There are probably 300+ players I would rather have if I am Steve Pikiell right now.
There are either 0,1 or 2 players I would rather have right now if I am a GM in the NBA draft. There are probably 300+ players I would rather have if I am Steve Pikiell right now.
Do football and mbb make money for us? Yes. The rest is a compliance obligation (absurd as that may be that it still exists). We are part of an elite group of schools residing in a conference with the most financially lucrative media rights contract in college sports. So no, we don't have a revenue problem. I honestly don't even know what you are trying to say, but you go figure it out. I'm done.
No way.....unless those other programs cost $53,000,000
Did you look at this
Big Ten Conference | College Athletics Database
It's way more complicated. Every schools accounting of where they house infrastructure and debt expenses are different. It's not apples to apples without looking under the hood. For simplicity though, I will deconstruct my point for you. In round numbers, our B1G TV contract will drive $90m in revenue. Not even you could argue that football and mbb don't drive virtually all of that. And that's before you even get into the intangible halo effect these sports provide to the university. It's worth $$$$. Do you really think it costs us more than 90m to run football and mbb? If not, then they make moneyNo way.....unless those other programs cost $53,000,000
Did you look at this
Big Ten Conference | College Athletics Database
In 2023 according to database it says 60M.......Yes i would allocate 99% of TV money to FB and MBB....how you want to allocate that revenue is up for debate.....but we are lumping hoops and FB together so it doesnt matter
I suppose you can also strip out some (not all)of the debt because that eventually goes away.....do you strip out severance pay for past coaches (i say not)
The new B1G media deal will drive roughly 90m per team all in. Allocate that anyway you want been football and hoops. Doesn't matter and not relevant to the point. I was simply trying to dumb it down for you by removing the non revenue sports from the equation, since they are the reason athletics loses money and that seemed to confuse you. So again, football and mbb are both profitable. The rest, not so much. We do not have a revenue problem. In fact we have more than most coming in. If you are so concerned about the expenses, go start a thread on cutting women's gymnastics (sorry Hobbs) or women's volleyball. I am not advocating for that, but that is where the money problem lies.
You do realize the revenue sharing isn't the end all be all? Let's say hoops gets... 3 million of the 20.5--is that going to be enough to field a top team? The next potential coach is going to want guarantees more can be raised on top of it to attract the talent--or at least the good candidates would. I don't know. I don't think Pikes is getting fired any time soon, but I don't know what you'd get if you fire Pikes after this season. I think it would be a huge mistake.
We were losing 30-50 million dollars every year.....if the incremental revenue really is 40-50 million then I guess things arent as bad
It's not the revenue you or the conference makes, it's the 20.5 million the NCAA is sharing with each school for athletes. Right now that number is 20.5 million.
This is how Texas Tech is allocating it
We were never losing 30-50m on football and mbb. That is the only relevant thing. We lose money on the rest of it which we can't do anything about. Stupid model but it is what it is
Sure it is. The more you have coming in, the easier it is to absorb $20m off the top. We share in the most lucrative TV contract out there. Hence stop pissing and moaning about how we have a revenue problem.
I'm not. I'm talking about the money we will have available for the players in order to recruit at a high level. Whatever new coach comes in, if they are worth their salt, is going to have certain demands about how much of the 20.5 million or how much NIL demands they will have to meet. If I were coming to Rutgers, I'd have it put in my contract.
Rutgers will spend the max. It will be required by the B1G. The only question is how it gets divided between football and mbb. Assume something like 85fb/10mbb/5% to everything else or something like that. Rutgers can afford that.
You're kind of changing the argument here. If I'm a new basketball coach coming in at any football school, I am demanding it being written into my contract that I get at least that and probably ask for more. I think I'd want to start at getting 5 million of the 20.5. Why not ask? I would have Rutgers over the barrel at this point. There are no rules as to how you divide the money. I'm not saying Rutgers can't afford it, I'm saying any good coach coming here is going to ask for a lot of the pot. You think a certain football coach would want that to happen?
