What’s holding back recruiting ?

[MCKnight2004]

Honest question for discussion not to be negative. I know most of us believed after back to back successful seasons, good publicity, and facilities upgrades, we’d also improve recruiting. We can all hope the under Recruited develop, but RU Also needs to land more talent YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT. Can’t rely on player development Alone. So what is the problem?

Assistants?
Academic standards?
Pikes stubbornness for doing it his way with under Recruited ?

I know one thing, Transfer Recruitment philosophy has to change immediately or Pike won’t survive...can’t be worried about players asking about offense, shots, and playing Time. Talent trumps all. Good coaches figure it out.

 

[rubjk]

1 tourney in 30 years. Anyone else in b10 been there less?

 

[Lawboy12007]

We are not recruiting on a level playing field with many other P5 schools. Our recruits are the best kids he can find that he can get to come here. That being said we don’t give the added incentives most other P5 schools give. You can’t coach up height, strength or speed. He recruits 2-3 stars because the 4 stars usually dont come here for men’s hoops. The practice facility is not the magnet we were told it would be. Beside incentives most players like an uptempo offense and that is not the offense we have had with this staff.

 

[Vassar69]

1 tourney in 30 years. Anyone else in b10 been there less?

Northwestern. And they have an academics hurdle to deal with too

 

[zazoo2002]

Northwestern. And they have an academics hurdle to deal with too

And, 7 of Northwestern's past 10 recruits are top-150. I'm not sure what ails Pike, but his inability to - more - consistently recruit B1G caliber players will be his undoing.

 

[soundcrib]

Bagmen.

 

[Mr_Twister]

We do not hire the Kelvin Sampson’s and Bruce Pearl’s and Fab Five Juwan Howard’s and Will Wade’s of the basketball world. And years ago it would have been the Dick Vitale’s.

 

[biazza38]

Pike’s offensive style is bad

 

[Knight Ed]

I think the transfers out have to be used by opposing coaches against us at this point.

 

[RUJMM78]

Rutgers isn't considered a destination school for top tier recruits.Pikiell must depend on player development which has shown mediocre results.Recruiting emphasis has been tall and athletic versus shooting ability ,

 

[RUshore99]

I think the transfers out have to be used by opposing coaches against us at this point.

I don't know about that. No program is immune to the transfer portal stuff. This past off season Iowa, Indiana, Maryland and countless other brands lost starters to the portal. I don't think that transfers out are a talking point against us.

I think that we dont swim in dirty AAU water and we don't recruit kids that have demands or handlers. It significantly shrinks the universe of P5 level talent that is in scope for us. Layer on no sustained B1G league success, and it's hard to win many head to head 4star recruiting battles.

 

[kcg88]

I think the lack of offensive success is a part of it. Players (and those advising them) want to go to a place where they can flourish and there's not much evidence that going to Rutgers will maximize one's offensive output.

 

[srru86]

Bagmen.

Sadly true. All the greats have them. Even those with reputations for ethics, Krzyzewski, Wooden, all of them.
Pike's mentor certainly did.

 

[Joey Bags]

We are not recruiting on a level playing field with many other P5 schools. Our recruits are the best kids he can find that he can get to come here. That being said we don’t give the added incentives most other P5 schools give. You can’t coach up height, strength or speed. He recruits 2-3 stars because the 4 stars usually dont come here for men’s hoops. The practice facility is not the magnet we were told it would be. Beside incentives most players like an uptempo offense and that is not the offense we have had with this staff.

We have the height and the strength, and the last two years we had the speed to go with it.

not to mention 3 of our 5 starters last game are 4 star recruits.

but something hasn’t clicked since we went back to back tourney experiences.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

There is no issue with the offense and it's been stated 1000 times, kids do not want to play in a rigid, inflexible systematic offense......there are very few programs (Iowa, Wisconsin, UVA and others, who play in a system offense).

Recruiting was never about facilities 10 to 15 years ago for FHJ or Mike Rice, or even Eddie Jordan, who landed Corey Sanders, still the most talented guard RU has seen since Douby.....

It takes a financial commitment like all of the other cheating schools implement.....now with NIL, you actually have a path to level the playing field to compete for kids and RU has more donors that can pool funds together for basketball.

The problem right now is we have a small pool of donors that either do not focus on basketball or have their heads in the clouds following Schiano around as if it's the only sport at RU......it doesn't take a million dollar donor to fix basketball, it does take a million dollar donor to be made aware that a poor basketball product, actually impacts your football program.....just like having 45-3 blowouts vs Ohio State when you have basketball recruiting targets on campus......

Keep in mind, RU has a lot to sell, but there were times during the initial Pike seasons where they had a basketball tailgate section for families and recruits to soak up the great campus, but you couldn't stay in the student section for more than a quarter, because Chris Ash was a bubbling buffoon of a coach and RU football was an embarrassing situation.....

This was before the facility was built and we still didn't have anything to offer "off the court/field"......

It takes the Towers, Greg Brown or others to pay attention to basketball.....Schiano is much better off bringing recruiting targets to the RAC, if RU basketball is sold out and playing Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State or Illinois in basketball and the game is competitive.....the RAC is still the most exciting building RU has for sports and if you maintain success in basketball, you can sell football recruiting targets on the excitement of our students and other factors....

When you read the football recruiting target comments about the Ohio State, Michigan State or Wisconsin/Maryland debacle, the recruiting targets say "hey I understand it's a rebuild ", then you read their comments about a visit at Penn State for a white-out, or Ohio State,Michigan etc....basketball recruiting targets attend football games and football recruits attend basketball games.....

How this is lost on RU fans is mysterious to me.....you have to invest in talent acquisition.....doing so for Gavin Wimsatt.....great, that's one player, who we all hope is going to be great......

But a basketball recruit or 2, generates as much ROI as a football recruiting target, who could get injured, not pan out etc.....your investment on the basketball side with the bagman, like 90% of how programs do it, matters the most.....

I cannot speak for NIL, but there is a prominent poster on here, with the knowledge, pedigree and awareness on how to structure it.....we should not want success more than Pat Hobbs, we have to demand it....and if they don't respect what fans are requesting, you get and pool money together to show that RU means business and that it's not acceptable to fall behind anymore.......

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

We made the tournament the last 2 years and 6 games in to the season we have a recruiting problem?

No school that isnt a perenial top 25 program isnt going to get it right all the time.

Why are we not getting 4 and 5 star recruits? Just put yourself in the shoes of a parent of a 17 year old that can choose any school he wants for basketball. We just aren't there yet. 2 good years isn't going to erase the history of our program. Add the soon to be NIL hurdle and the trasfer rules and we are going to have to stay as a "under the radar" program.

 

[dontestrond]

Offense scheme. His offensive scheme doesn’t allow players to become standouts. He prefers defense and coaches use that on the recruiting trail against him.

 

[Salvi's Headband]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....that we can't outrecruit Seton Hall and St. Johns is utterly baffling to me. Heck, Temple has a forward from NJ, Hicks, who can shoot the three.

 

[AshCatchEm]

The fact that High school players are able to watch one of our games and realize that we do not run an offense.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

That NJH post pretty much sums up why I think college sports, as we know it, are doomed.

If Rutgers want to succeed it goes all in cuts all programs other than wrestling football and basketball. It keeps enough women's sports to satisfy Title IX. All effort from Rutgers Athletics employees is to set up paths to get players paid.

This happens all over the place. When the dust settles thousands of athletes that don't have the ability to pay for college don't get an education. Rutgers comes up short raising enough to get top players. we still have the infrastructure and costs of a big time athletic program. We scrap everything and get out of college sports just like the 100s of colleges that already have,

 

[kcg88]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....that we can't outrecruit Seton Hall and St. Johns is utterly baffling to me.

Seton Hall's high school recruiting had been crap between the loaded Whitehead-Delgado class until the 2021 class.

2020: Two recruits, both outside the top 250

2019: One recruit, ranked #184. Another unranked commitment who did not make it to campus.

2018: Two recruits, ranked #199 and #204

2017: Four recruits. One 4* (#92), the other three were all outside the top 150.

2016: One recruit, #81 (Powell)

2015: Four recruits, none in the top 175... one may have been a walk-on and two didn't make it to campus as far as I can tell.

So basically he's only gotten two 4* recruits from HS in that span: Myles Powell and Myles Cale.

Willard fortified his roster with the transfer portal (Ike Obiagu, Quincy McKnight, Alexis Yetna, Jamir Harris, Bryce Aiken, Tray Jackson, Kadary Richmond) and developing the under-the-radar guys. Rhoden and Sandro were both ranked #199 in their class. Michael Nzei was #377. Romaro Gill doesn't even have a 247 page as far as I can tell.

He quickly cycles out players who don't fit or aren't developing or just plain aren't good enough... certainly much more roster turnover than Pikiell has had.

He developed Rhoden and Sandro into first team Big East type players, and Gill into a national DPOY quality players.

 

[jerzeyguy]

Pike seems to have specific taste and is VERY strict on character. This added with he doesn't seem to be a relentless recruiter. He believes he can coach lesser talent if they're hard workers, so he won't kiss a** - when it comes to talented sought after players. He wants talented players, but his ego isn't desperate for them. So he'll keep losing out, and bringing in the cast asides. Maybe (hopefully) he sees it now, that he's dug himself in a hole. Its time Pikiel puts his ego to the side, and adjusts his thinking. He's gonna find himself out the door in a few yrs, because he had to do things "his way."

 

[kcg88]

Pike seems to have specific taste and is VERY strict on character. This added with he doesn't seem to be a relentless recruiter. He believes he can coach lesser talent if they're hard workers, so he won't kiss a** - when it comes to talented sought after players. He wants talented players, but his ego isn't desperate for them. So he'll keep losing out, and bringing in the cast asides. Maybe (hopefully) he sees it now, that he's dug himself in a hole. Its time Pikiel puts his ego to the side, and adjusts his thinking. He's gonna find himself out the door in a few yrs, because he had to do things "his way."

The problem is his "hard workers" seem to have lost that edge.

To a certain extent I do believe Pikiell recruits hard workers because he thinks they will get better on their own. I remember the stories about Eugene getting up 500 shots a day or something between his sophomore and junior season.

 

[sunsetregret]

Sadly true. All the greats have them. Even those with reputations for ethics, Krzyzewski, Wooden, all of them.
Pike's mentor certainly did.

It's not unethical anymore. The problem now (which was obvious the moment the NIL stuff flared up again) is that we don't have any, not that we're too ethical.

 

[Plum Street]

We are not recruiting on a level playing field with many other P5 schools. Our recruits are the best kids he can find that he can get to come here. That being said we don’t give the added incentives most other P5 schools give. You can’t coach up height, strength or speed. He recruits 2-3 stars because the 4 stars usually dont come here for men’s hoops. The practice facility is not the magnet we were told it would be. Beside incentives most players like an uptempo offense and that is not the offense we have had with this staff.

This may be a lie then !

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jppelzman/2019/12/14/rutgers-basketball-now-has-a-game-changer-in-facilities-race/amp/

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....that we can't outrecruit Seton Hall and St. Johns is utterly baffling to me. Heck, Temple has a forward from NJ, Hicks, who can shoot the three.

I have seen Zach Hicks and there's open 3s at Temple and open 3s vs elite competition....how many times do we have to stop isolating one game as some sort of litmus test.....

Iona defeated Alabama and they were the best thing since sliced bread......they then lost to Belmont and got handled by Kansas.....no one mentions Belmont or Kansas, only the flash in the pan.

Dayton lost 2 buy games to terrible teams, they turn around and beat Kansas and suddenly all is right in the world.

The way you win more often than not is getting players who just shoot 3s....they have to be able to defend, play and do more than 1 thing...."Hicks can shoot the 3....."......is he hitting pressure 3s at Purdue, at Indiana or vs Ohio State....?? Who can he defend vs Michigan, Indiana, Maryland etc??

There are players that come from smaller programs averaging 16, 18 PPG and get to a real conference slate/schedule and they look like a drastically different player....who you play against exposes whether you have talent or not.....it is the equivalent of taking Noah Vedral stats vs Delaware and then comparing them to everyone else on the schedule.....

 

[STLPirate12]

It doesn't change overnight. We went through the same thing on the SHU board from "we made the tournament, where's all the recruits?" to "we made the tournament 4 years in a row (5 if you count the covid year), where's all the recruits?" When the perception of your progam has been beaten down as badly as both of ours, it takes time to rebuild it.

 

[CuredbywinningRU]

Some coaches are born recruiters (Vitale as an RU Assistant pre-Final 4 team, and GS much of the time) and some are not. If you are not a good recruiter you don't all of a sudden become one. I like Steve P a lot but despite a couple 4* level recruits , and despite the new practice facility and the most exciting home venue in the country, neither he nor his assistants have demonstrated in what is now a not-so-short tenure the ability to recruit at the Power 6 level, let alone at the B1G level. That is something that simply will not change. Here we are after the best season in living memory and a great home win streak (now gone) and all he has coming in for '22 are two VERY "under-recruited" players. Things are likely to only get worse after this season.

 

[RUSCFORMERLYRULOU]

We need the Fran Brown of basketball to come here.

 

[Mbash93]

My friend has coached at least 3 high major players in the last 4 years at the HS level.

One we never really stood a chance with - was a top 35 or so recruit.

The other 2 ended up, one in the ACC before transferring and one @ Seton Hall.

The kid going to seton hall actually wanted to go to RU, but he said RU recruited him for 2 weeks and then never called again.

This kid ended up being ranked about 60 spots ahead of Derek Simpson nationally.

To me Pike is not focusing so much on overall talent and is focusing on fitting his "program" or his "culture" or whatever word you want to use.

He needs to start to bring in more talent then projects because he is not in the same class as some of these other coaches that look for certain guys to fit their molds.

 

[RUSCFORMERLYRULOU]

My friend has coached at least 3 high major players in the last 4 years at the HS level.

One we never really stood a chance with - was a top 35 or so recruit.

The other 2 ended up, one in the ACC before transferring and one @ Seton Hall.

The kid going to seton hall actually wanted to go to RU, but he said RU recruited him for 2 weeks and then never called again.

This kid ended up being ranked about 60 spots ahead of Derek Simpson nationally.

To me Pike is not focusing so much on overall talent and is focusing on fitting his "program" or his "culture" or whatever word you want to use.

He needs to start to bring in more talent then projects because he is not in the same class as some of these other coaches that look for certain guys to fit their molds.

Pike is not gonna change. It will be his downfall.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

No one had a problem when he selected players to fit his program over talent and won.

Pike has made mistakes and has had his hands tied in certain roster areas. I hope he doesn't changed what worked and got us to the tournament just because it didn't work in another year.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Pike is not gonna change. It will be his downfall.

Changing will be his downfall. People don't remember how many years of irrelevance we had fishing from the 3,4,5 recruit pools and landing the worst in those pools. Superflawed players that led to losses.

Myles Mack was a great shooter. He was a 2 guard that was 5'7''
Corey Sanders had elite athletisim. He couldnt shoot and he wasnt exactly reliable.
The list goes on and on....

 

[Mbash93]

No one had a problem when he selected players to fit his program over talent and won.

Pike has made mistakes and has had his hands tied in certain roster areas. I hope he doesn't changed what worked and got us to the tournament just because it didn't work in another year.

I think the problem comes with the fact that he brought in a class that is borderline useless aside from Cliff.

Mag Reiber and Oskar barely contribute to this team.

 

[kcg88]

No one had a problem when he selected players to fit his program over talent and won.

Pike has made mistakes and has had his hands tied in certain roster areas. I hope he doesn't changed what worked and got us to the tournament just because it didn't work in another year.

I had a problem with it but I shut up because he was winning. I still think his approach is less likely to work than another approach. But as you said he made the tournament, he deserves the chance to continue doing it however he likes. It doesn't mean we have to think it's likely to work again.

If I win $100 on a scratch-off that doesn't mean it's a good idea to buy $100 worth of scratch-offs.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I had a problem with it but I shut up because he was winning. I still think his approach is less likely to work than another approach. But as you said he made the tournament, he deserves the chance to continue doing it however he likes. It doesn't mean we have to think it's likely to work again.

You need to be realistic with what your program is and where you are in the hierarchy.

 

[kcg88]

You need to be realistic with what your program is and where you are in the hierarchy.

Pikiell's approach to building the roster from the Eddie Jordan days to where we are now is the right one: Find A-10 level guys with a chip on their shoulder. Geo Baker was the perfect recruit for the moment. It does seem his attitude and tenor on the court have changed but we're talking about recruiting.

I do believe there is truth in your theory that if a 4* is considering Rutgers then there may be something that we're all missing, but that should be less true now than it was when Pikiell was courting Montez Mathis. Perhaps it's not.

 

[Lions813]

The lack of NBA players hurts. Most 18yo kids, regardless of their star ranking, think they're going to the NBA. Right now there's no real path to see an NBA future, unlike the football program that has a lot of Schiano players who still talk about how important he is to them. For RU, the 1 NBA player (Omoruyi), mentioned how he really learned basketball when he went to Oregon. RHJ had an outside chance last year but don't think he did himself any favors by coming back. Until we start sending kids to the league, you better hope you hit on your 3* kids and they develop.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Pikiell's approach to building the roster from the Eddie Jordan days to where we are now is the right one: Find A-10 level guys with a chip on their shoulder. Geo Baker was the perfect recruit for the moment. It does seem his attitude and tenor on the court have changed but we're talking about recruiting.

I do believe there is truth in your theory that if a 4* is considering Rutgers then there may be something that we're all missing, but that should be less true now than it was when Pikiell was courting Montez Mathis. Perhaps it's not.

Cliff was a special case because of engineering and a strong family unit that wanted Cliff to play close to home.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Pikiell's approach to building the roster from the Eddie Jordan days to where we are now is the right one: Find A-10 level guys with a chip on their shoulder. Geo Baker was the perfect recruit for the moment. It does seem his attitude and tenor on the court have changed but we're talking about recruiting.

I do believe there is truth in your theory that if a 4* is considering Rutgers then there may be something that we're all missing, but that should be less true now than it was when Pikiell was courting Montez Mathis. Perhaps it's not.

Montez is one of my examples. Cant's shoot.