You both are good posters imo. But your love fest for the refs is just gross. Go get a room you two.
Great win, but stop with the ref whining...
- Thread starter RU848789
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Great post.
I don’t really get these complaints honestly; I feel like that kind of thing could just as easily relax him as mess him up.
So, amid the cries for consistency, you want a ref to not make a call in the last 10 seconds of the game that would be okay to make in the first 10 seconds of the game. If the B10 coaches complained about inconsistency, then they got some consistency there. What's the complaint now? Not the right kind of consistency?
There was one game, years ago pre-Covid at the RAC, against Indiana, where we definitely got the home whistle
But that supports your point: one game, years ago
I was at the game, close to the court. We got a number of very suspect calls and distinctly remember thinking “oh so this is what it’s like to get home cooking”.
Hasn’t happened since
I think there was 1 game like that last year. I don't recall which but it was a single game...
Me neither. And this what I don’t get about the “stop whining” folks
I’ve just never seen that. Happens all the time in every game. 3 point shooter gets grazed (or nearly so) like that and it causes the shooter to fall down after the shot. ALL the time. NEVER called
Yet these guys did.
Imho - it’s not really relevant whether he really “flopped” or was fouled. The relevant fact again is that that exact scenario happens in essentially EVERY game and is NEVER called like that.
So it’s not unreasonable for RU fans to complain about the lack of inconsistency and why paul was called for something that is never called
One more point (I’ve been away from this thread for a while ;) - to the “complaining about officiating on a message board is pointless” crowd I’ll offer this:
1) as others have stated - it’s a message board, we are fans, this what fans do. It’s why message boards exist. For people to chat about common interests. There is no point. So, so what?
2) but I am not entirely sure there is no point. Now while I VERY highly doubt big ten officials, coaches, etc read this, I think we have seen evidence of others (like members of the press) reading this board. So for example could that prompt them to ask certain questions at a press conference (therefore kinda getting the issue “out there”)? It’s possible
1) as others have stated - it’s a message board, we are fans, this what fans do. It’s why message boards exist. For people to chat about common interests. There is no point. So, so what?
2) but I am not entirely sure there is no point. Now while I VERY highly doubt big ten officials, coaches, etc read this, I think we have seen evidence of others (like members of the press) reading this board. So for example could that prompt them to ask certain questions at a press conference (therefore kinda getting the issue “out there”)? It’s possible
After the game last night they were talking in studio about how the officiating in the B1G needs to improve. Everyone knows it’s an issue.
I am beginning to fear Sunday's game vs Ohio State. They have lost 3 in a row.
Last year.. Penn State had lost a bunch of close games to start the season.. were called for a lot of fouls (because they thugged-it-up). Harar was called for one foul in the 1st half when he could have had 3 or 4. PSU "got heathly" vs Rutgers and stopped their skid. Unlike this years Temple and SHU games.. where we just stunk.. the way the refs called that game just gave it to PSU despite the final stats making it look like they called it fairly.
Typical home-cooking for "real" Big Ten teams? Anti-Jersey bias bred into midwest kids who go on to become refs? No idea. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a repeat Sunday... then again.. refs got some righteous criticism for throwing the win to OSU when we played at OSU.. perhaps they expect to be watched closely on this one?
Maybe I should be looking at the point spread.. OSU was favored by 14 vs Minnesota and maybe some ref (or refs) saw a payday in that recent game. Some suspicious calls down the stretch even after they assured the point spread would be beat. In particular, a totally clean block called a foul.. assured OSU would lose in addition to failing to cover. So, refs might be under the microscope for that too.. and seek to give OSU a win Sunday to make up for it and stop the criticisms from a huge OSU fan base.
PSU 66 - RU 49
Last year.. Penn State had lost a bunch of close games to start the season.. were called for a lot of fouls (because they thugged-it-up). Harar was called for one foul in the 1st half when he could have had 3 or 4. PSU "got heathly" vs Rutgers and stopped their skid. Unlike this years Temple and SHU games.. where we just stunk.. the way the refs called that game just gave it to PSU despite the final stats making it look like they called it fairly.
Typical home-cooking for "real" Big Ten teams? Anti-Jersey bias bred into midwest kids who go on to become refs? No idea. But I wouldn't be surprised to see a repeat Sunday... then again.. refs got some righteous criticism for throwing the win to OSU when we played at OSU.. perhaps they expect to be watched closely on this one?
Maybe I should be looking at the point spread.. OSU was favored by 14 vs Minnesota and maybe some ref (or refs) saw a payday in that recent game. Some suspicious calls down the stretch even after they assured the point spread would be beat. In particular, a totally clean block called a foul.. assured OSU would lose in addition to failing to cover. So, refs might be under the microscope for that too.. and seek to give OSU a win Sunday to make up for it and stop the criticisms from a huge OSU fan base.
PSU 66 - RU 49
And Iowa was on a losing streak before pulling out the huge comeback vs Indiana right before us and they haven’t looked back since. I’d much rather play a team doubting itself than one that maybe believes they’ve figured out their issues.
Here’s the thing. No matter how you look at it, 11 (out of 13) non-shooting fouls in a half is a very high number when none are intentional to stop the clock. Of the first 6 fouls that put NW in the bonus at the 13:02 mark, 4 were check fouls (most off ball I think). One was one of the offensive fouls called on Cam. Only the first foul on Cliff was on a shot attempt.
Foul number 7 when Dean went over the back was considered a put back attempt in the act of shooting - that was the other “shooting foul”. Every other foul was offensive or heat check.
The point is - whether you blame the refs or not, it’s factually the case that NW “earned” 4 second half FT attempts off our defense. Either the refs or us (with poor decisions) gifted them the rest.
Foul number 7 when Dean went over the back was considered a put back attempt in the act of shooting - that was the other “shooting foul”. Every other foul was offensive or heat check.
The point is - whether you blame the refs or not, it’s factually the case that NW “earned” 4 second half FT attempts off our defense. Either the refs or us (with poor decisions) gifted them the rest.
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That was all ball. A great block. Terrible game deciding call.
And I love it
F$*k OSU. Now they know how it feels to have the refs steal a game.
Taking a look at the box score, in the second half (note: fouls on shot attempts are not listed as shots... I know 4 of our FTs came off of layups, and I think 4 of their FTs did too)
Rutgers: 6 layups, 6 jumpers, 11 threes
NW: 5 layups, 4 jumpers, 15 threes
NW wasn't getting more calls because they were putting up more shots at the rim - if anything, they were shooting a bit more from the outside than we were. They also aren't much different defensively than we are during sets before the shot - they play a similar brand of ball to us.
The whistle just got much tighter for us in the second half, while it largely remained the same for them between the two halves. The "why" on that is not something I'll speculate on - but observationally, there was a clear difference in the way we were being called before and after halftime.
You can tell if they are shooting fouls prior to being in the bonus. Of the first 6 second half fouls, NW only went to the line for the first one on Cliff.
Foul 7 was on Dean over the back on a put back attempt.
Foul 8 was an over the back called on Paul also on a rebound. They made both 2-2.
Foul 9 - offensive foul called on Mag. Off ball.
Foul 10 - was the loose ball foul on Cam on our end end the floor. Put them at the line. Made 1 of 2.
Foul 11 - off ball foul on Hyatt. They made both 2-2.
Foul 12 - offensive foul on Cliff (I think)
Foul 13 - Paul fouled their big. Wasn’t a shooting foul - I think it was away from the basket but still not the worst foul considering he’s a terrible FT shooter. Went 1-2 there.
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We have a rep has a clutch and grab team. All the other coaches complain about us. We will continue to get a crap whistle until we take the next step in this league. If we become a perennial contender for the league title they won’t call the weak stuff on us anymore.
We don't generally clutch and grab as much as we body people and reach in.... we put our chest into ball handlers, poke/swipe at the ball, fight over the top of screens, bang back hard in the post, drive hard into defenders' chests, and set hard screens. We're much more likely to get into the "cylinder" on a guy than to grab his arm as he blows by us.
Clutching and grabbing is usually a result of being a step behind on defense, which doesn't happen that much (at least this season).
We definitely don't shy away from contact, though - and that will generally result in more whistles than average. As long as it's consistent for both teams and between halves, though, that's normal.
Still not even as bad of a call as missing the OSU out of bounds call against us. That was literally taking a W away from us and giving us a L. The OSU/Minn game was tied and would have likely gone to overtime whether either team still could have won/lost. Ours was an immediate W to L.
Yes.. you can look at individual fouls and say they were justified... BUT.. you have to look at if those same calls were being made the other way. And you cannot simply look at the final tally to determine that.
In the first half.. for the first 14 minutes.. they only called the most obvious fouls. Now.. the bald ref.. he seemed completely honest and unbiased to me. he called that obvious flop on NW where teh guy stuck his leg out. And to make up for that, the other refs made up flop calls on Rutgers.
By the end of the first half the calls were about even. Meaning they piled calls against Rutgers into the final 6 minutes of the half to balance calls against NW for teh whole half.
In teh 2nd half.. the refs started using the whistles. And many of those calls resulted in turnovers for rutgers.. fewer shots/possessions... fewer points. And they balance that with a ticky-tac foul on NW they did nothing but make us take the ball out and restart the offense.
All fouls are NOT EQUAL.
I already posted the data on inside vs outside shots as well..
Rutgers took 20 shots at the rim, making 11 - NW took 12 making 6
Both teams took 5 shots in the paint.. NW made 2, Rutgers made ZERO
So.. the total, traditional, in-the-lane shots were 25 for Rutgers and 16 for NW
For outside shots.. Rutgers took 11 mid-range and 18 threes for 29 outside shots. NW took 39 outside shots.
The refs were allowing NW to physically assault Rutgers shooters and rebounders. They made calls "on teh floor" rather than shooting.. why? Is it because we are a good FT shooting team this season?
I'm telling you.. at least one of those refs did Rutgers dirty... and I'd say it looked completely intentional.
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Tucking in a shirt is not a "call". But we get it, your posting history suggests that you are a ref apologist and RU hater.
You may be right as Cam is showing to be an incredible foul shooter. But players have routines. Why would a ref take an unnessesary action to interrupt those routines? His shirt was not fully out. It was only slightly unkempt. This is not the army.
My point is that regardless of whether they were fouls or not, NW did not “draw” most of them in making an actual play. Almost any form of aggressive defense can be whistled at any point for a touch foul and be justified. Unfortunately we got hit with a ton of them in the first 7 minutes of the second half and there’s no doubt that had an impact on how we played defense the rest of the way being in the bonus.
It’s as an important factor as any.
It’s not whining. It’s fair and in fact necessary commentary on any game.
When you delve into and how often RU gets short end of stick…
We are good now, maybe very good. We can vent if refs are hosing or seeming trying to take it away from us.
It’s not whining. It’s fair and in fact necessary commentary on any game.
When you delve into and how often RU gets short end of stick…
We are good now, maybe very good. We can vent if refs are hosing or seeming trying to take it away from us.
Maybe the ref was irritated that the RU players kept making him blow his whistle?
He might've wanted to have an easy game where he just had to run up and down the court. But nooooooooooo! The RU players were fouling the crap out of everybody in sight, so the poor guy had to keep lifting that damn whistle, over and over and over and... well, you get the idea.
So anyway, after becoming irritated at all the whistling, the ref took it out on Cam by mercilessly torturing him with the old tuck-in-your-shirt technique.
See this is the thing. The officials don’t have a conspiracy against Rutgers. They’re just bad. If you have a good, fairly officiated game everyone will think it’s slightly against them. When you have terrible officiating everyone will think it’s really biased against them. That’s what’s happening in the Big Ten; I’m pretty sure virtually every fanbase in this conference thinks the refs hate them
Agree 100%
I’ll also add that the call against us was FAR worse for the following reason (which is a HUGE distinction): the foul against OSU was simply a matter of the ref seeing it wrong (happens in the every game/ all game - see a foul that didn’t happen or vice versa - in other words a garden variety bad call). But the call that robbed us was literally the REFS NOT KNOWING THE RULES!! That is FAR worse than a run-of-the-mill bad call
I don’t know. I’ve seen cam have friendly chats with the refs. I thought it was kind of a lighthearted thing; it seemed like they were kind of laughing about it. Maybe that is inappropriate in that situation, I don’t know. But I don’t think it was malicious
There's this straw man going around this thread in which some of you seem to feel like some of us are telling you not to whine about officiating (and don't kid yourself; it absolutely is whining). And, while the thread title does indeed tell, or perhaps ask, y'all to stop whining, I just want to point out that that's not what I'm doing.
I'm teasing, taunting and trolling people over their whining and obsessing. Which is fun. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't be doing it.
And, presumably, y'all are having the time of your lives whining about officiating so much. So by all means, enjoy. 😃
I don’t know. They called us for only 2 first half fouls. All of a sudden in the second half we start committing a ton of off ball fouls that we weren’t commiting before? The second half was called completely different.
Somehow - the home team in our conference seem to end up with way more FT attempts on average (not counting intentional ones). In this game - taking the flops and intentional FTs out - it was RU 7 attempts NW 16.
Oh come on... (yes, I see you were largely being sarcastic) but the Ref was probably baiting the Rutgers player into saying something he might be able to use to call a T. It was probably the same ref that had to go up to mag to "instruct" him just before he called an offensive foul on him off the ball.
I might imagine that ref bet heavily to had "friends and family" bet heavily on NW to cover and he/they lost their shirt.. which will mean he will HATE Rutgers forever after.
Still can’t get over ref icing and telling to Cam to fix shirt right before most crucial foul shots of game. Cam has ice in his veins and we won so not a big deal.
But if he missed and we lost…
Hope Hobbs and Pike were on phone to B1G. That was so bush league in addition to the crappy officiating.
Although banter is heated also amused as well. It’s a message board. That’s what it’s for.
Not sure it’s really a straw man since that is clearly what this thread is doing even if it’s not what you’re doing
My insight is that you are trying too hard to troll this thread. May be fun for you, but likely contrived for most.
Exactly. And pretty much every fanbase can put together some kind of defense of that mindset. Not a good defense, usually. But a defense nonetheless.
For example, NW can point at the first half of our last game w/them and ask WTF were the officials doing never calling fouls on RU for such a long period. They'll narrowly focus on that while ignoring, or creating rationalizations, to explain why the refs seemed to be targeting RU with soft calls in the second half. Because that's what fans do. Focus on what helps make their arguments and downplay that which contradicts their arguments.
Refs are human, they make mistakes. They will always make mistakes. And, for damn sure, they will always make some calls where one team thinks it was correct and the other team, against whom the call was made, thinks it was awful. Sometimes they can pile up more for one team than the other.
And that can all happen even when the ref is 100% just calling things like they see it, with no bias, no intent, no nothing untoward going on. Is just the nature of sport and officiating.
The shirt being untucked is a rule. I don't have an issue with the refs telling Cam to tuck it in.
It felt like the judgment calls were heavily in Northwestern's favor the other night. I remember thinking at the end of the first half that it was a very well officiated game to that point, just letting the teams play without many mistakes or lopsided whistles IMO. That changed in the 2nd half. That last call against Hyatt under the basket really looked like a mystery. I would think there's no need to call a foul unless one player gained an advantage, which I didn't see there.
Paul needs to work on keeping his emotions in check when the whistle goes against him/us. It is human nature to be frustrated when that happens, but I don't think it is helpful. He was right about things like the Northwestern player touching the ball last near midcourt when the ref gave it back to Northwestern. The first flop call on Paul was a good call and he should drop that from his game. The second one is marginal but once that becomes a point of attention in the game, I'm not shocked it was called.
It felt like the judgment calls were heavily in Northwestern's favor the other night. I remember thinking at the end of the first half that it was a very well officiated game to that point, just letting the teams play without many mistakes or lopsided whistles IMO. That changed in the 2nd half. That last call against Hyatt under the basket really looked like a mystery. I would think there's no need to call a foul unless one player gained an advantage, which I didn't see there.
Paul needs to work on keeping his emotions in check when the whistle goes against him/us. It is human nature to be frustrated when that happens, but I don't think it is helpful. He was right about things like the Northwestern player touching the ball last near midcourt when the ref gave it back to Northwestern. The first flop call on Paul was a good call and he should drop that from his game. The second one is marginal but once that becomes a point of attention in the game, I'm not shocked it was called.
Agree 100% but I still think the Big Ten basketball refs are worse than average which will lead to more teams getting screwed even if it balances out over time. You don’t need to be biased to screw somebody.
I do think basketball is very difficult to ref in general. Very rarely do I find myself as worked up about football officiating (there are exceptions for sure.. if I were a Michigan fan I’d have been pretty pissed off ~2 weeks ago)
I don't watch much other than RU games during the regular season, so I can't speak to comparisons between officials in the different leagues. But, having watched NCAA tournament games a lot, I've always had the sense that the officiating in that tournament is intended to promote offense - I see the refs start games calling it really tight, which forces teams to back off a little with the intensity of defensive play with double-teams and traps and all.
If there's anything to that, and I really don't know it, is just a perception, then that kind of works against RU who are at their best when officials let the teams be pretty aggressive with bodies and hands on defense. The officials in the Seton Hall game earlier this year were letting the teams beat the piss out of each other and, in what I think is a pretty rare occurrence for RU, Seton Hall got the better of it.
IMO, this team is going to have to get more productive on offense, especially against zones, to keep the winning ways up all season and into the tournament. Not a ton more, but enough to iron out some of the long scoreless periods we seem to go through in most games.
I can not disagree more. Primarily, I am not even sure if the Jersey was technically untucked. It’s the end of a hard fought game. Might just be the way he wears his jersey. Tuck rules are never good.
More importantly from youth basketball to the NBA, I’ve probably watched literally tens of thousands of basketball games, I have never seen a ref distract such a shooter with the game on the line in the last 6 seconds.
That was one of the poorest exercises of judgement I’ve ever seen. I’m head of B1G officials he’s fined or suspended. Now should we get worked up over it? We won and adds to the legend of Cam but what if shooter wasn’t as good or as confident. Certainly could throw off rhythm.
IMHO inexcusable.
