OT: Another NJ farm to be seized

[kupuna133]

Ok, well then, if you have a different source I'd love to see it.

I'd also love to see an example of a town where you think there is no affordability issue in NJ- we should know so it can be a model for the state.

Look above.
As we discussed last time. When the issue was Southern Monmouth County. There is an affordability issue in certain towns. But not everyone needs a 3-4br house in Wall Township to work in Wall township. They can commute from more affordable towns 15-30 minutes away.

 

[kupuna133]

Open land yes. Whether people can afford it isn't "wealth." If every home in a town is worth a million bucks but teachers and cops and nurses in the town made 300k that wouldn't be an issue. Everything is on a scale, and there's certainly no perfect way of calculating things, but common sense tells everyone how supply and demand works.

I guess the expert is wrong and the metrics he says are included are not. Gotcha.

 

[tom1944]

This is from Google AI (certainly not perfect)

The average annual salary for a police officer in New Jersey is around $63,095. However, this can vary significantly based on location, experience, and other factors. Some departments, like East Rutherford, have officers earning over $150,000 annually. Entry-level salaries can start around $49,200

There are some cops that earn 200k. Many superintendants too. But teachers and cops have to start somewhere, and it's not the level you are talking.

Is the suggestion that NJ has no issue with home affordability at all?

That number is close. It is between $90-100k

 

[JMORC2003]

What the hell is wrong with Middlesex County? Piscataway pulled the same type of crap with the Halper farm, and last I recall driving by, nothing has happened with that property, which was seized in 1999.

I grew up in North Brunswick and seems like 30+ years ago they were dealing with the same stuff. Back then I believe it was in the Maple Meade area by the BOE office, and then again where the Community Park is.

I now live in Cranford (soon to be 20 years) where nearly every few months you construction start on a new apartment building, not to mention the lovely 900 units and two warehouses at 750 Walnut.

Yes, I could move, but I have 3 kids fully enmeshed in schools and sports and activities, plus relationships with friends and neighbors, so that's harder than it sounds.

 

[kupuna133]

That number is close. It is between $90-100k

https://projects.nj.com/paycheck/

Look up by town, employee name, county. It’s all there. Brother in law $185. Neighbor $178 base pay before OT. And these numbers are pre covid 2019.

My Nephew 5 years on $88. Nephew doubles that with outside jobs and forced over time.

 

[rurichdog]

That number is close. It is between $90-100k

Close. Only off by 50%. You work for the government too?

 

[kupuna133]

Close. Only off by 50%. You work for the government too?

Well the other guy was nearly off by 100%. So not bad I guess.

 

[e5fdny]

Look above.
As we discussed last time. When the issue was Southern Monmouth County. There is an affordability issue in certain towns. But not everyone needs a 3-4br house in Wall Township to work in Wall township. They can commute from more affordable towns 15-30 minutes away.

Somehow that’s “wrong” 🤷‍♂️

 

[kupuna133]

Somehow that’s “wrong” 🤷‍♂

wasn’t in that conversation either.

 

[e5fdny]

wasn’t in that conversation either.

I’m from the thought process of you live/drive/eat/wear/etc. what you can afford.

But others feel that is “unfair”🤷‍♂️

 

[kupuna133]

I’m from the thought process of you live/drive/eat/wear/etc. what you can afford.

But others feel that is “unfair”🤷‍♂️

Yep. Same. Like I said in the last thread. Not everyone needs to live in a doorman apartment fresh out of college. 5 story walk ups and a subway ride builds character. Hahaahah

 

[e5fdny]

Yep. Same!

And we’re the bad guys. LOL

 

[kupuna133]

And we’re the bad guys. LOL

Yea especially from your background and career choice. Crazy how that works.

 

[fsg2]

Apologies for interrupting Bromance Fest 2025, but ...

Don't care about fairness but what we actually discussed the last time was the sustainability of that model. Only so many times you can move 15 to 30 minutes down the road before the squeeze outmeasures the juice.

Not sure it'll become an issue in Central Jersey anytime soon but most of the country isn't Central Jersey. And it's already a problem elsewhere.

 

[fsg2]

Yep. Same. Like I said in the last thread. Not everyone needs to live in a doorman apartment fresh out of college. 5 story walk ups and a subway ride builds character. Hahaahah

Do a lot of these affordable housing developments include doormen?

 

[Knight Shift]

I’m from the thought process of you live/drive/eat/wear/etc. what you can afford.

But others feel that is “unfair”🤷‍♂️

Like these families. . . . Lakewood, SMDH:

https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/2025/06/02/tenants-reveal-poor-living-conditions-illegal-lakewood-housing/83917382007/

 

[kupuna133]

Do a lot of these affordable housing developments include doormen?

Are you serious? You live where you can afford was the topic of conversation. But I think you knew that. Can we go back to our bromance now?

 

[fsg2]

Are you serious? You live where you can afford was the topic of conversation. But I think you knew that. Can we go back to our bromance now?

I assumed you saw it through to fruition, but if you need another go ... 😜

And I swore this thread was, quite specifically, about affordable housing, which in itself is a direct answer to your "live where you can afford" plea.

Regardless, I don't recall anyone asking to be accommodated with a luxury doorman apartment, a far logical cry from the affordable housing actually being developed and discussed.

 

[kupuna133]

I assumed you saw it through to fruition, but if you need another go ... 😜

And I swore this thread was, quite specifically, about affordable housing, which in itself is a direct answer to your "live where you can afford" plea.

Regardless, I don't recall anyone asking to be accommodated with a luxury doorman apartment, a far logical cry from the affordable housing actually being developed and discussed.

You responded to e5 and I talking. And I was referencing a discussion from an earlier thread where we specifically discussed affordable housing for Wall cops/teachers etc.and life choices. One of those being door man buildings . And yes you knew that because you were involved in that thread saying similar things🤪

Yeah, but that's what you were working toward. So it was presumably worth the suffering in the short term for the long-term goal.

True about police, but not teachers as far as OT and outside jobs.

No, I don't cry myself to sleep for them, but I also don't begrudge their viable housing options within the communities they work. Or think it's very comparable to a business exec or stock trader living lean before making bank.

This conversation (thread) started out on a quick dead-end, from which it spidered off into various vaguely related tangents 😄
Click to expand...

To which I responded:
Again not begrudging. Just being honest. There are sacrifices people make at certain points in their life. I chose finance and the risks associated. Some people don’t understand you don’t have to live in a doorman building or live in a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs. It’s about enjoying the process and sometimes embracing the struggle and being self sufficient. No one forces a 9 month work calendar and holidays off but to each their own.

 

[iReC89]

live where you can afford would work if towns didn't effectively historically ban housing that working stiffs could afford. Affordable housing oversight is about where the housing is, not what the housing is.

 

[fsg2]

You responded to e5 and I talking. And I was referencing a discussion from an earlier thread where we specifically discussed affordable housing for Wall cops/teachers etc.and life choices. One of those being door man buildings . And yes you knew that because you were involved in that thread saying similar things🤪

To which I responded:
Again not begrudging. Just being honest. There are sacrifices people make at certain points in their life. I chose finance and the risks associated. Some people don’t understand you don’t have to live in a doorman building or live in a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs. It’s about enjoying the process and sometimes embracing the struggle and being self sufficient. No one forces a 9 month work calendar and holidays off but to each their own.

I don't believe I said anything that wasn't relevant to both threads and in direct response to what you said here.

Doorman throwaway aside, NJ (and many other parts of the country) has growing affordability issues that won't just get solved with "live where you can afford." Which is why we're having the same conversation six months later and will be seeing it again in another few months and on and on.

I agree many people don't understand sacrifice. I don't think parents and society are teaching that anymore. But that's not the driver behind affordable housing.

Teaching is a pretty important job, no? So while no one forces anyone to teach, it is something that's universally necessary. And you can't just dismiss with "Choose a higher paying job or move an hour+ away."

 

[kupuna133]

I don't believe I said anything that wasn't relevant to both threads and in direct response to what you said here.

Doorman throwaway aside, NJ (and many other parts of the country) has growing affordability issues that won't just get solved with "live where you can afford." Which is why we're having the same conversation six months later and will be seeing it again in another few months and on and on.

I agree many people don't understand sacrifice. I don't think parents and society are teaching that anymore. But that's not the driver behind affordable housing.

Teaching is a pretty important job, no? So while no one forces anyone to teach, it is something that's universally necessary. And you can't just dismiss with "Choose a higher paying job or move an hour+ away."

Again have no issues with affordable housing being created. The issue is not new and in many cases was created because of suburban sprawl 30-40 years ago. Developers not following through with their responsibilities and towns looking the other way. I have an issue with eminent domain and forcing towns to build on open space just because it’s open.

 

[tom1944]

https://projects.nj.com/paycheck/

Look up by town, employee name, county. It’s all there. Brother in law $185. Neighbor $178 base pay before OT. And these numbers are pre covid 2019.

My Nephew 5 years on $88. Nephew doubles that with outside jobs and forced over time.

Your link says the average statewide salary is $99k.

I was not including other benefit costs or what they earn working other jobs.

 

[tom1944]

Close. Only off by 50%. You work for the government too?

According to the link kupuna posted my number was very close. The discussion was about their police salary not total compensation including benefits and what they can earn by working construction gigs.

 

[kupuna133]

Your link says the average statewide salary is $99k.

I was not including other benefit costs or what they earn working other jobs.

Yep. The post you responded to said the average was much less. And the average salary in Central Jersey which is the topic of this thread is $114.

 

[Knight Shift]

Are you serious? You live where you can afford was the topic of conversation. But I think you knew that. Can we go back to our bromance now?

Someone wants a hug and be part of the bromance?

You responded to e5 and I talking. And I was referencing a discussion from an earlier thread where we specifically discussed affordable housing for Wall cops/teachers etc.and life choices. One of those being door man buildings . And yes you knew that because you were involved in that thread saying similar things🤪

To which I responded:
Again not begrudging. Just being honest. There are sacrifices people make at certain points in their life. I chose finance and the risks associated. Some people don’t understand you don’t have to live in a doorman building or live in a 4 bedroom house in the suburbs. It’s about enjoying the process and sometimes embracing the struggle and being self sufficient. No one forces a 9 month work calendar and holidays off but to each their own.

Totally agree with you on this. Drove beater cars, lived in numerous awful apartments and houses early on to scrape and save, and the struggle was definitely worth it.

I posted a link to some very poor construction workers living in deplorable conditions in Lakewood.

BTW, not sure which thread is more off the rails, this one or the Ajani Sheppard transfer thread. It's close.

 

[Knight Shift]

Good case study in Red Bank on why the middle may no longer have a place in many parts of Monmouth County.

https://www.redbankgreen.com/2025/06/red-bank-as-luxury-buildings-rise-missing-middle-housing-disappears/

 

[NotInRHouse]

Look above.
As we discussed last time. When the issue was Southern Monmouth County. There is an affordability issue in certain towns. But not everyone needs a 3-4br house in Wall Township to work in Wall township. They can commute from more affordable towns 15-30 minutes away.

OK. So what's a town nearby that you think a Wall teacher can live in 15-30 minutes away?

In terms of the home size...10-20-30 years ago, could a teacher have afforded a 3 bedroom home in Wall? Doesn't it seem like a problem?

 

[NotInRHouse]

I guess the expert is wrong and the metrics he says are included are not. Gotcha.

I don't think an expert said what you're saying, thus judges consistently ruling against the towns making this argument over the course of decades and various judges and partisan alignments on the NJ Supreme Court.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Somehow that’s “wrong” 🤷‍♂️

15-30 minutes from Wall I'm in where...Toms River at furthest? Anywhere north, west and east is going be more expensive.

According to Glassdoor the average Wall teacher earns 50k. This means the government believes she can afford a home for about 150k.

Even if she's married to another teacher, they can afford 300k.

This would maybe, maybe, get a small townhome in TR or Brick in a desperate state of repair.

So yeah I'd say it's pretty wrong for someone to whine about a community of say, 100 townhomes going for 800k plus having 20 units going for 150k to local professionals and the elderly.

Since Mount Laurel property values have skyrocketed, they continue to climb in NJ bucking trends elsewhere. So I'm really missing the concern.

 

[tom1944]

Glassdoor is wrong. Statewide the average teacher makes about$80,000. Ocean county teachers are lower.

I do agree with you that teachers don't make enough to buy homes in most towns

Ocean County median teacher salaries, ranked by district. See latest data.

See how much teachers in your county are paid.

www.nj.com

 

[NotInRHouse]

I don't believe I said anything that wasn't relevant to both threads and in direct response to what you said here.

Doorman throwaway aside, NJ (and many other parts of the country) has growing affordability issues that won't just get solved with "live where you can afford." Which is why we're having the same conversation six months later and will be seeing it again in another few months and on and on.

I agree many people don't understand sacrifice. I don't think parents and society are teaching that anymore. But that's not the driver behind affordable housing.

Teaching is a pretty important job, no? So while no one forces anyone to teach, it is something that's universally necessary. And you can't just dismiss with "Choose a higher paying job or move an hour+ away."

It's really interesting to me how people on this board who express outrage on the pricing of everything from RU concessions to taxes to eggs have absolutely zero outrage over the cost of housing. Seems extremely selective.

I would love to know which affordable complexes have doormen and 4 bedroom homes, however. I have a doorman, but my home more than doubled in value since I bought it. And my response to that isn't stop building in JC and pretending that salaries doubled in that time span.

The irony is, to pick on Wall- the town doesn't have the prestige of the shore towns (Spring Lake, Sea Girt) nor the schools of Howell/FRHSD, but the prices there have skyrocketed because of remote work (something else the same folks would tell you is a moral outrage) to the point where shacks and townhouses are just under seven figures and we should tell young folks that work to keep the town going to just move to Barnegat, and failing that, get a roommate, or share a bedroom with your kids. Never mind someone who grew up in the towns on the water, or Hudson County, or Montclair or Maplewood trying to come back...

 

[NotInRHouse]

Glassdoor is wrong. Statewide the average teacher makes about$80,000. Ocean county teachers are lower.

I do agree with you that teachers don't make enough to buy homes in most towns

Even two teachers. Let's put them at 160k total household income. Government puts them at 480k homebuying value.

That would get them a townhome in Toms River with 3 bedrooms- the new NJ dream folks- about midway through their careers.

That's OK. Maybe they can wait until their parents die and move to Wall then, less the parents have to be near a teacher or cop in a condo with a restricted deed to a local 5 figure wage employee, or an elderly person on fixed income.

Not like the same posters would tell you Toms River is a bad place to live, that we had a thread saying it's filled with people who disobey laws and cancer clusters, right?

 

[kupuna133]

OK. So what's a town nearby that you think a Wall teacher can live in 15-30 minutes away?

In terms of the home size...10-20-30 years ago, could a teacher have afforded a 3 bedroom home in Wall? Doesn't it seem like a problem?

Is this a parody account? Do you not remember having this same conversation a couple months ago ? This was all shared with you that time also.

 

[kupuna133]

I don't think an expert said what you're saying, thus judges consistently ruling against the towns making this argument over the course of decades and various judges and partisan alignments on the NJ Supreme Court.

Okay he’s wrong. Take it up with him.

 

[kupuna133]

15-30 minutes from Wall I'm in where...Toms River at furthest? Anywhere north, west and east is going be more expensive.

According to Glassdoor the average Wall teacher earns 50k. This means the government believes she can afford a home for about 150k.

Even if she's married to another teacher, they can afford 300k.

This would maybe, maybe, get a small townhome in TR or Brick in a desperate state of repair.

So yeah I'd say it's pretty wrong for someone to whine about a community of say, 100 townhomes going for 800k plus having 20 units going for 150k to local professionals and the elderly.

Since Mount Laurel property values have skyrocketed, they continue to climb in NJ bucking trends elsewhere. So I'm really missing the concern.

Again covered multiple times.

 

[kupuna133]

Even two teachers. Let's put them at 160k total household income. Government puts them at 480k homebuying value.

That would get them a townhome in Toms River with 3 bedrooms- the new NJ dream folks- about midway through their careers.

That's OK. Maybe they can wait until their parents die and move to Wall then, less the parents have to be near a teacher or cop in a condo with a restricted deed to a local 5 figure wage employee, or an elderly person on fixed income.

Not like the same posters would tell you Toms River is a bad place to live, that we had a thread saying it's filled with people who disobey laws and cancer clusters, right?

Given proof. Change the metrics you created. Your memory for conversations previously had is astonishing.

 

[Knight Shift]

Even two teachers. Let's put them at 160k total household income. Government puts them at 480k homebuying value.

That would get them a townhome in Toms River with 3 bedrooms- the new NJ dream folks- about midway through their careers.

That's OK. Maybe they can wait until their parents die and move to Wall then, less the parents have to be near a teacher or cop in a condo with a restricted deed to a local 5 figure wage employee, or an elderly person on fixed income.

Not like the same posters would tell you Toms River is a bad place to live, that we had a thread saying it's filled with people who disobey laws and cancer clusters, right?

What's your hang up with Wall? It's a very mediocre town. Not that desirable, and I live here.
And let's not forget, most teachers (at least the ones I knew) have summer jobs at the shore. Knew several that were class 2 (specials) police officers, life guards, waiters/waitresses that make very good money in the summer. $160,000/year divided by 0.75 is $213K/year. Cry me a river.

 

[kupuna133]

15-30 minutes from Wall I'm in where...Toms River at furthest? Anywhere north, west and east is going be more expensive.

According to Glassdoor the average Wall teacher earns 50k. This means the government believes she can afford a home for about 150k.

Even if she's married to another teacher, they can afford 300k.

This would maybe, maybe, get a small townhome in TR or Brick in a desperate state of repair.

So yeah I'd say it's pretty wrong for someone to whine about a community of say, 100 townhomes going for 800k plus having 20 units going for 150k to local professionals and the elderly.

Since Mount Laurel property values have skyrocketed, they continue to climb in NJ bucking trends elsewhere. So I'm really missing the concern.

They can live in Wall (as many school teachers police do). And any town that touches wall outside of the beach towns of sea girt, spring lake. Neptune, Tinton Falls, Belmar, Brick Howell should I keep going with towns they can and do live in. I live in this area. And it’s not uncommon for the teachers and cops that serve this community to live in town or towns in the surrounding areas. I also have neighbors that live near me that are State troopers and cops/teachers from Edison East Brunswick Sayreville Neptune and Asbury Park firemen.

 

[Knight Shift]

They can live in Wall (as many school teachers police do). And any town that touches wall outside of the beach towns of sea girt, spring lake. Neptune, Tinton Falls, Belmar, Brick Howell should I keep going with towns they can and do live in. I live in this area. And it’s not uncommon for the teachers and cops that serve this community to live in town or towns in the surrounding areas. I also have neighbors that live near me that are State troopers and cops/teachers from Edison East Brunswick Sayreville Neptune and Asbury Park firemen.

If anyone read the example in Red Bank from the the redbankgreen blog above, between the State politicians and their horrendous Mt. Laurel requirements and the local zoning boards, it is no wonder housing is so expensive. The bigger problem, however, is the investors and big builders buying up the lower end homes, demolishing and renovating them and flipping them for big bucks.