OT: PGA and LIV Golf to merge….

[WhiteBus]

The whole thing is weird. But not sure the season starting matters much. I would guess that any agreement was likely going to keep things in place for 2024 and then whatever new thing comes would be for the 2025 season. Not knowing the details, we could be talking about shifting tournaments around, sponsors, etc. That likely couldn't happen for 2024 even if they had a final, signed agreement on Jan 1.

It's important to get done sooner or later. Will the # of required tournaments change with the merger? Will the elevated tournament still be required tournaments to get the year end bonuses? There is a lot on the line for the players and they have no clue from Monahan on what is going on. Many are getting frustrated and no one is afraid to speak there displeasure publicly anymore.

 

[Ty Webb]

It's important to get done sooner or later. Will the # of required tournaments change with the merger? Will the elevated tournament still be required tournaments to get the year end bonuses? There is a lot on the line for the players and they have no clue from Monahan on what is going on. Many are getting frustrated and no one is afraid to speak there displeasure publicly anymore.

Again the devil is in the details and certainly sooner would be better than later.

But again, when factoring in logistics and other issues, it would seem unlikely that any agreement even if signed before year end 2023 would have changed much for 2024. So I don't think the 2024 season starting has much of a bearing on trying to get this done ultra-quickly (meaning in the next few weeks before the 2024 PGA season starts).

 

[MADHAT1]

I look at it like this:
the LIV will keep on raiding the PGA for players to force the PGA to make a deal with them.
The PGA will keep on stalling trying to find sponsors that will make merging with the LIV unnecessary because of increased tournament payouts and other financial opportunists for PGA Tour members

 

[Ty Webb]

I look at it like this:
the LIV will keep on raiding the PGA for players to force the PGA to make a deal with them.
The PGA will keep on stalling trying to find sponsors that will make merging with the LIV unnecessary because of increased tournament payouts and other financial opportunists for PGA Tour members

It would be interesting to know exactly what is being negotiated, what are the sticking points, etc.

For example, is the 54 hole thing part of the negotiations? What about TV deals? LIV's TV deal is absolute garbage, so is the hold up due to trying to get the major networks who are contracted with the PGA to now figure out how to televise LIV?

 

[T2Kplus20]

Sounds like Rory is begging for one of those nice LIV contracts! :)

McIlroy: I was too 'judgmental' of LIV defectors

Rory McIlroy says he regrets being too quick to judge players who joined LIV Golf and accepts that the Saudi-backed tour is part of the sport.

www.espn.com

 

[MADHAT1]

Sounds like Rory is begging for one of those nice LIV contracts! :)

McIlroy: I was too 'judgmental' of LIV defectors

Rory McIlroy says he regrets being too quick to judge players who joined LIV Golf and accepts that the Saudi-backed tour is part of the sport.

www.espn.com

could be, Rory might not trust Jay Monahan to have the PGA players best interest in mind when negotiating with the LIV and McIlroy might feel a deal favoring the LIV probably will happen so might as well take the money and run with it now before Monahan gives it away and be sitting with nothing after deal is made

 

[WhiteBus]

could be, Rory might not trust Jay Monahan to have the PGA players best interest in mind when negotiating with the LIV and McIlroy might feel a deal favoring the LIV probably will happen so might as well take the money and run with it now before Monahan gives it away and be sitting with nothing after deal is made

Rory pulled out of the Players Advisory Council. He wants nothing to do with Monahan anymore.

 

[Section124]

 

[Ty Webb]

Still zero rumors leaking on this merger.

Given all the other crap that has leaked about players bolting, etc. this just seems odd to me.

 

[MADHAT1]

Still zero rumors leaking on this merger.

Given all the other crap that has leaked about players bolting, etc. this just seems odd to me.

from a will be done
to what's happening
doesn't sound to good.

 

[Ty Webb]

from a will be done
to what's happening
doesn't sound to good.

Just feels like professional golf is kind of imploding here where you end up with a watered down PGA Tour (from its heights) and a LIV golf tour that has a Monday charity tournament vibe/format that few want to watch.

Guess just tune in four times a year for the majors and that's it.

 

[Rutgers85]

 

[Ty Webb]

View embedded media

Wonder if the delay had to do with waiting on new players to sign. It's being reported that Tyrell Hatton signed a LIV deal as well.

My fear is what we get is two watered down tours, nothing compelling and we, the fans, lose out.

 

[rcube1994]

Wonder if the delay had to do with waiting on new players to sign. It's being reported that Tyrell Hatton signed a LIV deal as well.

My fear is what we get is two watered down tours, nothing compelling and we, the fans, lose out.

Chris Kirk, Grayson Murray, Nick Dunlap, and Matthieu Pavon. Winners of the first 4 events.

Cant help but wonder how many of these guys would have actually won if Rahm, Koepka, DJ, etc. were still on the pga.

Watered down tours is a likely outcome at this point.

 

[WhiteBus]

So finally some news. A third party has entered the scene.

PGA Tour landing $3B SSG investment; puts LIV Golf, Saudi deal on shaky ground

The PGA Tour is set to receive a massive influx of cash from a consortium of American sports owners.

www.sbnation.com

 

[Section124]

So finally some news. A third party has entered the scene.

PGA Tour landing $3B SSG investment; puts LIV Golf, Saudi deal on shaky ground

The PGA Tour is set to receive a massive influx of cash from a consortium of American sports owners.

www.sbnation.com

I think this is the only sentence that matters in that article:

"The PIF has over $700 billion in assets and has poured more than $2 billion into LIV Golf since its launch in 2022." A $3B investment may not stop the top players from going to LIV. It helps to slow player movement for now but the article still says they are trying to fit in the PIF as well.

 

[WhiteBus]

I think this is the only sentence that matters in that article:

"The PIF has over $700 billion in assets and has poured more than $2 billion into LIV Golf since its launch in 2022." A $3B investment may not stop the top players from going to LIV. It helps to slow player movement for now but the article still says they are trying to fit in the PIF as well.

I actually think it doesn't slow down the player movement. First it not a lot anyway but snagging the top players will continue simply because the PGA still doesn't pay appearance fees, all result based payouts.
I think this is more a bargaining plot for the PGA. The shouldn't drag their feet getting a deal done over this.

 

[MADHAT1]

I actually think it doesn't slow down the player movement. First it not a lot anyway but snagging the top players will continue simply because the PGA still doesn't pay appearance fees, all result based payouts.
I think this is more a bargaining plot for the PGA. The shouldn't drag their feet getting a deal done over this.

My feeling is the PGA is going to drag this out as long as they can , while finding new revenue sources, to make the Saudis cry "Uncle" and decide the PR rewards of keeping the LIV going isn't worth the cost.
Every time a deal seems like a go a delay happens and we hear of the PGA finding new funding and the the merger not done .

 

[WhiteBus]

My feeling is the PGA is going to drag this out as long as they can , while finding new revenue sources, to make the Saudis cry "Uncle" and decide the PR rewards of keeping the LIV going isn't worth the cost.
Every time a deal seems like a go a delay happens and we hear of the PGA finding new funding and the the merger not done .

They will never come close to what the Saudis have to spend.
If the PGA is thinking on those terms they are just stupid (again). They played it wrong from the beginning and seem to be doing it again.

 

[MADHAT1]

They will never come close to what the Saudis have to spend.
If the PGA is thinking on those terms they are just stupid (again). They played it wrong from the beginning and seem to be doing it again.

The Saudis have the money to spend, the PGA can't come close to matching that but can try to drag this out long enough for the Saudis to feel what they will be getting from the deal isn't worth the money being spent trying to make it happen and let the LIV succeed or fail on its own ,without the Saudis financing it.

 

[WhiteBus]

The Saudis have the money to spend, the PGA can't come close to matching that but can try to drag this out long enough for the Saudis to feel what they will be getting from the deal isn't worth the money being spent trying to make it happen and let the LIV succeed or fail on its own ,without the Saudis financing it.

Unfortunately the Saudis don't back down as seen in European sports leagues. No matter where the money comes from, money always wins in sports. That why we have NFL 3 nights a week and some are streaming only.

 

[Ty Webb]

They will never come close to what the Saudis have to spend.
If the PGA is thinking on those terms they are just stupid (again). They played it wrong from the beginning and seem to be doing it again.

But the Saudis still have big problem - revenue. People think they are doing this for poops and giggles but they have been pretty clear that they want this to generate income and they want to recoup their investment.

Their model seems to be that if they keep throwing big contracts at players, eventually the sponsors will follow, eventually the US TV markets will follow. But is that accurate? What most likely will happen is two splintered tours each with top heavy talent.

But the PGAT will have the US TV market. They will have the bigger sponsors. The format is another issue that seems to be sucking LIV down (I saw a recent poll from Golf.com or somewhere that most viewing fans prefer the PGA style events and not LIVs). Can they get more people interested if they steal more top talent? Or is the format that much of an anchor? And if that's the case, how do the Saudis put into motion their plan to sell off ownership stakes in the teams to recoup their investments? That's not happening without real revenue.

 

[Ty Webb]

Off to a good start in the Rahm LIV era. LOL.

"John" Rahm

 

[WhiteBus]

But the Saudis still have big problem - revenue. People think they are doing this for poops and giggles but they have been pretty clear that they want this to generate income and they want to recoup their investment.

Their model seems to be that if they keep throwing big contracts at players, eventually the sponsors will follow, eventually the US TV markets will follow. But is that accurate? What most likely will happen is two splintered tours each with top heavy talent.

But the PGAT will have the US TV market. They will have the bigger sponsors. The format is another issue that seems to be sucking LIV down (I saw a recent poll from Golf.com or somewhere that most viewing fans prefer the PGA style events and not LIVs). Can they get more people interested if they steal more top talent? Or is the format that much of an anchor? And if that's the case, how do the Saudis put into motion their plan to sell off ownership stakes in the teams to recoup their investments? That's not happening without real revenue.

The Saudis don't have the problem they have plenty of money. The PGA doesn't.

Deadspin | There aren’t enough wealthy team owners on Earth to save the PGA Tour

Deadspin | There aren’t enough wealthy team owners on Earth to save the PGA Tour

deadspin.com

 

[Ty Webb]

The Saudis don't have the problem they have plenty of money. The PGA doesn't.

Deadspin | There aren’t enough wealthy team owners on Earth to save the PGA Tour

Deadspin | There aren’t enough wealthy team owners on Earth to save the PGA Tour

deadspin.com

It's not about having plenty of money. Do you think the Saudis will just continue to throw hundreds of millions/billions at LIV and it just sucks up cash?

If the PIF wants their plan to become reality, they absolutely have a revenue problem right now. Frankly, that's why they were open to a PGA merger.

 

[WhiteBus]

It's not about having plenty of money. Do you think the Saudis will just continue to throw hundreds of millions/billions at LIV and it just sucks up cash?

If the PIF wants their plan to become reality, they absolutely have a revenue problem right now. Frankly, that's why they were open to a PGA merger.

That's why just they were interested in a merger?? Are you serious?

 

[Ty Webb]

That's why just they were interested in a merger?? Are you serious?

One, they wanted to toss aside the litigation and keep the PIF out of any discovery. Two, a merger with the PGAT would give them access to PGA sponsors, TV broadcast partners, etc.

You keep ignoring the big elephant in the room. If the PIF is to be believed, that they want this to be an income producing asset where they can also sell off ownership stakes in the teams to recoup investment, how do they do that with minimal revenues?

 

[WhiteBus]

One, they wanted to toss aside the litigation and keep the PIF out of any discovery. Two, a merger with the PGAT would give them access to PGA sponsors, TV broadcast partners, etc.

You keep ignoring the big elephant in the room. If the PIF is to be believed, that they want this to be an income producing asset where they can also sell off ownership stakes in the teams to recoup investment, how do they do that with minimal revenues?

You must not understand the new deal the PGA just made. It isn't a grant. It's an investment fund. They will need to get paid back. Where is the PGA going to get that money to repay them with them making a profit??? I have a clue!

 

[Ty Webb]

You must not understand the new deal the PGA just made. It isn't a grant. It's an investment fund. They will need to get paid back. Where is the PGA going to get that money to repay them with them making a profit??? I have a clue!

You still refuse to answer the question.

How is the PIF going to recoup investments into LIV through the sale of franchise rights when they have minimal revenues?

 

[WhiteBus]

You still refuse to answer the question.

How is the PIF going to recoup investments into LIV through the sale of franchise rights when they have minimal revenues?

This isn't a venture for returning investments. Never was.

 

[Ty Webb]

This isn't a venture for returning investments. Never was.

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-2023-goals-include-generating-revenue-via-franchise-system

 

[jtung230]

Saudis threaten bankers and consultants that worked on LIV with prison if they cooperate with US lawmakers.

Nothing to see here. Not the reason we settled.

 

[Ty Webb]

Saudis threaten bankers and consultants that worked on LIV with prison if they cooperate with US lawmakers.

Nothing to see here. Not the reason we settled.

Financial Times article on this.

McKinsey and BCG warn staff face jail if they reveal Saudi work

Senators assail consultants for helping Riyadh use ‘soft power’ to build influence in the US

www.ft.com

 

[Ty Webb]

Still not much on the merger although it appears the Saudis blocked the LPGA/LET merger until they can bless the merger.

Oh and Talor Gooch claimed today that if Rory wins the Masters it will have an asterisk next to it since it won't have LIV golfers there. But it's an odd comment since most of the top LIV guys will be there - Johnson, Koepka, Reed, DeChambeau, Rahm, etc.

Then again, Gooch was the dude who claimed how he can't see how a LIV event isn't all that different from a Ryder Cup. LOL.

 

[jtung230]

Still not much on the merger although it appears the Saudis blocked the LPGA/LET merger until they can bless the merger.

Oh and Talor Gooch claimed today that if Rory wins the Masters it will have an asterisk next to it since it won't have LIV golfers there. But it's an odd comment since most of the top LIV guys will be there - Johnson, Koepka, Reed, DeChambeau, Rahm, etc.

Then again, Gooch was the dude who claimed how he can't see how a LIV event isn't all that different from a Ryder Cup. LOL.

Think Rory would ok with *.

 

[WhiteBus]

Think Rory would ok with *.

Rory would be great with it. They gave him a stupid event Monday night. It was on several channels last night and the production sucked!!

 

[Ty Webb]

Rory would be great with it. They gave him a stupid event Monday night. It was on several channels last night and the production sucked!!

The Match ran its course a long time ago.

 

[Caliknight]

I’m more convinced than ever LIV is going to fail. Golfed with an agent who brokered deals for LIV guys and has 3 top PGA guys now. He said some of the numbers being reported aren’t even close to accurate. Cut them in half he said. It’s also interesting that once a guy signs with Liv their endorsement deals go down to almost zero. No one sees them. They become so invaluable his agency cuts ties after the deal is signed.

Players aren’t going to hang around a tour no one sees them on and their endorsements go away.

The Saudis aren’t going to continue to fund a losing enterprise.

 

[WhiteBus]

I'd worry more about the PGA Tour. Horrible start to the year. No big names winning, TV ratings down considerably. They keep making changes like Nascar once did. That didn't go well.

 

[T2Kplus20]

I'd worry more about the PGA Tour. Horrible start to the year. No big names winning, TV ratings down considerably. They keep making changes like Nascar once did. That didn't go well.

The PGA Tour is becoming irrelevant. As of now, only the 4 majors really matter. Sad for to see for golf. People need to grow-up and start working together.