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Our NJ upper middle class to affluent kids

I think the issue is that the expectations are a lot higher in the NE. Everyone wants their kid to go to the best college and the definition of best college is very subjective. I think the top tier schools are well defined and then there are the rest. I do agree with other posters about the distance issue in NJ.
 
I know there would be some costs involved,but I would like to see Rutgers reach out to ALL the schools from elementary to high school and create a "School Trip to New Jersey's University" program. Give them a tour of the campus,stop and see the dinosaur,have some "fun" speakers,meet the Scarlet Knight mascot,get a FREE Rutgers shirt and hat,some age appropriate Rutgers literature. KIds bring their lunches and maybe Rutgers springs for sodas and juices. Maybe find an educational group to sponsor (Goddard Schools,Mathnasium,etc.) ? Just a thought.
 
So few state schools in the northeast are considered 'elite' relative to the plethora of smaller, private colleges.

University of Maine, University of New Hampshire, University of Vermont, UMass, UConn, Rutgers, SUNY - Whatever, University of Rhode Island, University of Maryland, Penn State, University of Delaware.

All of the above are, I'm sure, fine schools. As someone above posted, Penn State is probably the only one that has successfully 'branded' itself (despite what we all think about the place) due in large part to athletic success and may be seen as a destination by top in-state kids (academically...not socio-economically).

There are well-respected private colleges elsewhere in the country, but not anywhere close to the numbers that you have in the northeast. Additionally, the state schools are branded (often through athletics, but also by being viewed as a valuable member of the local community) in those places much more so than in the northeast where the state schools seem to have the stigma of fallback schools and places to go if you can't afford to go elsewhere.
 
RUfinal4, I agree with you on the value of going away but is it greater than the difference between in-state tuition vs out-of-state tuition?

it depends on the family and the kid involved. I remember seeing a kid post on one of the main boards who is from an upper middle class community in NJ and goes to S. Carolina. He mentioned that he earned grants and scholarships that made his tuition almost the same as Rutgers.
 
it depends on the family and the kid involved. I remember seeing a kid post on one of the main boards who is from an upper middle class community in NJ and goes to S. Carolina. He mentioned that he earned grants and scholarships that made his tuition almost the same as Rutgers.

For what it's worth, you also don't need to be anything special to get grants from South Carolina.
 
Diversity could play a part when comparing Rutgers to peer state schools.
 
For the sake of discussion, let's say the household annual income of a 40-ish "upper middle class" in NJ is $300K, with a ten-bagger net worth nearing $3 million, this in a household with a high school sophomore or junior, who is assessing colleges.

Dad and mom move in a professional and social circle where "RU" is a non-starter in the competition for their child's college education. A school with a winning athletic program (RU or otherwise) means little or nothing to them. What does matter? They want "the best" for their kid, in terms of the quality of the child's education (real or perceived) and the post-grad opportunities (professional and marital), and for how the child's school will also reflect on them, as parents. They demand this. Rutgers will never get those folks to attend. But so what?

Want to make Rutgers a stronger institution all the way around? Focus on ensuring NJ's flagship state U gets the financial support that other states' flagships receive, and then some. Compete in that regard. That's critical. Demand it of your elected officials. Recruit more alumni to run for state house and senate office. That will make an impact.

And donate to RU academics as well as athletics. . . .

I hate to break this to you, but annual income of 300k and a net worth of $3 million is NOT upper middle class. That's rich, particularly the net worth for a "40-ish" family.
 
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The same thing happens in other states. Do you really think kids from the Main Line want to go to TTFP or Greenwich to UConn or some wealthy DC suburb to Maryland etc.

NJ just has a higher percentage of such people and higher percentage of people not from NJ originally and also those who want their kids in Catholic school from pre-K to grad school.

There are plenty of rich PA and NY kids at RU. I knew plenty of them. They were there before the football team was good.

NJ just also has more self loathing. Going to USCe over RU in 99% of cases for NJ residents is as senseless as it gets.

It's also not about athletics or being far from home, otherwise UDel would never have come into vogue. LOL at the comment about "meet new kinds of people". All the people from my HS that went to TTFP or UDel all joined the same fraternities and sororities, filled with upper middle class, white, people who grew up surrounded by other other, upper middle class, white people.

The rich NJ people who don't want to go to RU are actually desperately seeking to avoid RU because it contains the unfamiliar- eg, people whose parents who don't call to change their grades, didn't by them a beamer for turning 18, who endured a hardship other than not getting the Louis Vuitton purse they wanted for their birthday...etc...what they want is to reconvene with their strata and never know anyone else.

And it's also about mom and dad saving face at the country club or Shop Rite line, going to RU makes the family look poor, why would that family want to save up for grad school when they can impress their neighbors when little Johnny or Suzie goes to lower ranked Delaware for more money....this is the mentality. That's why RU is filled with first generation Americans and college students who actually have an understanding of important things like money and education and job opportunities and not impressing people.

I know people who went to RU from my HS and those who went to TTFP, UDel, etc...the ones who went to RU have MBAs, JDs, MDs, etc and are nearly universally more successful and well off.

Going to a similarly ranked school which costs the same, is really stupid. There is no need to offer justifications for people being bad with money. That's what it is.

If/when I have a child, unless they get into an Ivy or Duke or Stanford or something of that caliber, they will go to RU. The savings vs TTFP or UDel can go to grad school or a down payment on a house.
 
I'm sure that better performance in FB and BB would generate more interest in RU among high school students but I don't think it would lead to a big uptick in applications from upper middle class and affluent kids. The other things - ugly, spread out campuses, too close to home for kids who want to experience something different, etc - outweigh anything to do with athletics.
 
Upper middle class kids don't care about education; they want opportunity. They go to plenty of schools that are not as good as Rutgers but may offer greater post-graduate opportunities. IMO, the issue at Rutgers is an alumni networking issue. There are many ways to build that network, but very good sports develop a real connection between a student and a school that can continue beyond graduation.

This.

This is a critical issue for RU. Our alumni connections really pale in comparison to our BIG brethren, and with many other very good to elite public universities. And a national-sports caliber program is one of the few ways to connect alumni living out of the area in D.C., Boston, Chicago, Cali, and so on.

Often times our most successful alumni move way and we haven't really had a very good mechanism for keeping folks connected, in-touch and donating.
 
I ask those who went to Rutgers before the sports program "got good:" why did you come here? Surely you could have went to a school with a better sports program?

Makes me wonder if those people would have went to the new Rutgers.
 
NJ has gotten increasingly wealthy, and its in an area with lots of elite private school competition plus a handful of decent public schools that draw more middle range students away. This board has proven over and over again that people with money will spend it on a perceived better quality education - starting as early as preschool. Why would they stop spending that money at the college level?

That's it in a nutshell (for other "state schools across the country)...as many college plans are set in stone back when kids are in pre-school and their parents try to place them in some of the best private schools (starting at pre-K and on up).

Parents don't spend all that private school $$$ for 14 years or so...all so their kid can go to the "state" school.
 
I see quite a few posters chiming in with opinions based on second or third hand information. I don't know how the opinion that parents in upscale towns and neighborhoods look down on RU came to become accepted as fact. I live in Summit and spent 20 years working in the NYC corporate HQ of a Fortune 50. Graduates from the bests schools in the country have been all around me and I don't recall ever once hearing any of them put down RU's academics or discouraging their kids from applying to it. That doesn't mean they don't encourage their kids to aim higher.
 
I hate to break this to you, but annual income of 300k and a net worth of $3 million is NOT upper middle class. That's rich, particularly the net worth for a "40-ish" family.
I hate to break this to both of you, but annual income of 300k will not get you to a net worth of 3mm in your 40s. Maybe someone left you a lot of money or you are the best stock picker in the world.
 
Does Rutgers offer world-class opportunities and rank in the top tier for the majors that upper middle class kids pursue? I haven't read any recent reports, but I recall RU ranking very highly in the Philosophy and Sociology and pre-education courses of study...do the rich kids from Bergen County actually go into these majors? Where does our pre-business and pre-law (or along those lines) rank? STEM majors? Maybe we've reached our desired demographic based upon what the University excels at.
 
I think it's less a question of kit having a mechanism and more a question of how much they enjoyed RU when they were a student.
 
A lot of you have some very good and correct thoughts on this subject.

Some of my thoughts and anecdotes.

First off, Rutgers has a caveat from the people in Trenton, especially those in Newark and Camden and NB, that they have to admit students from those cities even if their scores are not good enough to get in if you were from another surburban town. That brings down SAT scores. Back in the day those students went to Livi and and Rutgers College was not very easy to get in. Now all you hear about is our diversity, we run it up the flag pole any chance we get. Like other people have posted a lot of middle to upper middle class families see that as a negative.

On the other hand my son went to the engineering school and he was in the the minority. A lot of very smart asian and Indian students and families love RU. I am not saying anything is wrong with that, he is dating a woderful Indian girl for over two years now that he met there. Same as I said above, some people see that as a negative.

But SAT scores are rising and it is harder and harder to get into RU these days.

I give tours of RU for friends and their kids. The last 4-6 kids went to a Monmouth County HS that is OK. They all had supposdly high GPA's. None of them got in. I hear that more and more with people that know I am a RU fanatic.

Another anecdote. A lot of people that I graduated with did very well for themselves. I am talking top 2%. Not one of them ever gave back to RU and God forbid would never send their kids here. I laugh at one of them who is a big shot with the NYAC. I was with him once there and someone asked me how I knew him. i of course said we met at RU. Of course he never told anyone that is where he went.

These people have the money to send their kids anywhere they want and they do. God bless them , I only get angry at they never ever think of what got them started on their pass to the good life.

I could go on and on but it just gets me frustrated. I see some positive changes, higher SAT scores, Honors College, new buildings, and a few more. It will not happen over night and some people will never send their kids here. It is getting better.
 
I'm sure we all agree they go anywhere but Rutgers...for the most part.
The reasons have been discussed many times on this board and we all know what they are.
They range from a campus filled with students that look and dress nothing like them, to the place simply doesn't resemble a college atmosphere like a our sister schools in the B1G, or a UNC or Virginia do.

This was not the case before 1975 so something happened? What was it?
As for the remedy...winning athletic teams would do more to change the perception than anything else..IMO
The school we root so passionately for has two chicken and egg scenarios it seems to me. In order to recruit well for your sport you need to win, and in order to become attractive to upper class kids who are non athletes, you need to win at sports as well.

Strictly my opinion, If there was a winning atmosphere surrounding are athletic teams around our campus, it would greatly improve perception, which in turn might help us get affluent kids. I'm not even saying getting those kids would make it a better school, but it would make us like other flagship state universities that for the most part are all priority destinations for their instate kids.
Disclaimer: I am a Rutgers Engineering Alumnus and have had Football season tickets for 10+ years.

One of my coworkers son, chose to go to Pitt because not only did he get accepted to their honors program, but they also offered him more scholarship money. Rutgers can't compete with other schools for top students since they don't give out many academic scholarships.

The one thing that struck my coworker as odd is that Rutgers was bragging about athletics success majority of the time while talking to honor students, instead of talking about the academics. That was a big put off for them. I think Rutgers needs to make sure they use the correct talk track for the audience they have.
 
I've always thought athletic excellence would change a lot of the perceptions at RU, I have a hard time believing if we had tournament level men's basketball and lacrosse programs to go along with our improved football and B1G TEN status it would not help.
But based on the majority of responses it seems you disagree. I'm constantly surrounded by Glen Ridge, Montclair, West Essex and MKA Lax players, many go on to play at UVA, Hopkins, Princeton, Syracuse etc…I'm sorry, but if we were good I think we'd get our fair share.
 
Here's what it is.. "the problem"

A) History:

Rutgers was a private school for most of its life. And there was such an "old school" feel to it that it actually came to represent "old school" and "college spirit" in the Broadway musical High Button Shoes. Now that may not mean much to you today.. but imagine if a big broadway hit that became a movie centered around life at Rutgers and Rutgers football. THAT is how much Rutgers had a name for being THAT kind of school way back when.

Most big state schools we admire today are from states that were once territories. Territories and populations who worked to become worthy of achieving statehood. They needed state pride and feeling of community to get there. And they were somewhat remote to the bulk of US higher education on the east coast. They built their state colleges because of need and state pride. They supported the athetics programs and football temas because of state pride.

New Jersey just simply does not have that brand of state pride.

B) Choice:

New Jerseyans always had choice of eastern colleges. Travel via rail and ship and roads and later highways was not a problem. they had the whole northeast to chose from in picking colleges. Heck.. Princeton was the defacto state college.. being named "The College of New Jersey". Rutgers was formed because all colleges were then associated with some religious entity. I believe Princeton was Presbyterian and Rutgers was "Queens College" and affiliated with the Dutch-Reformed Church. Right from the start we were a niche destination.

Just 10 years after its founding came the Declaration of Independence and a rejection of the concept of Kings and Queens. So we lost out there in our name as well. Was there any reason for people of New Jersey to apply their state pride to Qeens College then?

In any case.. the upper crust can go anywhere. Why choose Rutgers?

A good number of advantaged students in New Jersey attend Catholic high schools (and others do the prep school thing). These kids and families may have generational ties to non-Jersey schools.

Again, with all that.. why choose Rutgers?

C) Mission:

Rutgers, when it became the State University of New Jersey took on a vital mission. To educate those New Jersey WWII vets who had access to the GI Bill. Today it takes many many New jersey kids from disadvantaged backgrounds. It takes in New Jersey's community college transfers who meet certain grade standards.

Make no mistake, Rutgers serves New Jersey very well.. even if it does not serve itself well.

All of this, to my way of thinking, means that Rutgers and its fans and supporters should just stop caring what the upper crust do. They want their kids going to some white-bread "name" school where they will meet Buffy or Biff and so on.

I actually have a fondness for the preppy life myself. I get it. If I had the money to seek it out in college I probably would have.

But there is nothing wrong with Rutgers. It is a fine institution. It provides great educational opportunities. And you can live any lifestyle you want there. you want to be a prep.. you can do it (though the attacks on greek life have hampered that a bit, I'd imagine).

You know what the funny thing is? I bet the upper crust kids in those white-bread institutions are listening to hip hop and adapting to seem more urban than you would imagine. I'd bet they drive their beamers with hip-hop blaring.

Give me the Rutgers kids from working class backgrounds any day.

So we don't get the money and donations from the upper crust. Big deal. We'll make it work without them.
 
I see quite a few posters chiming in with opinions based on second or third hand information. I don't know how the opinion that parents in upscale towns and neighborhoods look down on RU came to become accepted as fact. I live in Summit and spent 20 years working in the NYC corporate HQ of a Fortune 50. Graduates from the bests schools in the country have been all around me and I don't recall ever once hearing any of them put down RU's academics or discouraging their kids from applying to it. That doesn't mean they don't encourage their kids to aim higher.

Exactly, because you work with professionals, who don't base beliefs on anecdotes, and who are successful enough in life that paying more for a lesser education won't validate them in their social circles.

The problem with RU has NEVER been prominent and affluent individuals. The problem is, and remains, the insecure, self-loathing, and those with unshakable prejudice.
 
I've always thought athletic excellence would change a lot of the perceptions at RU, I have a hard time believing if we had tournament level men's basketball and lacrosse programs to go along with our improved football and B1G TEN status it would not help.
But based on the majority of responses it seems you disagree. I'm constantly surrounded by Glen Ridge, Montclair, West Essex and MKA Lax players, many go on to play at UVA, Hopkins, Princeton, Syracuse etc…I'm sorry, but if we were good I think we'd get our fair share.

It would get more applications. It would not change the fact that many New Jerseyans validate themselves based on how much they spend on education and not the quality.

Also isn't what you're talking about really in regards to the lax program, Princeton barely takes any NJ schools and all of those besides Syracuse are sought after nation wide.

If you really think anyone will be more impressed with a Syracuse degree....lol...we beat them in every non men's basketball and lacrosse rating known to man..
 
I hate to break this to both of you, but annual income of 300k will not get you to a net worth of 3mm in your 40s. Maybe someone left you a lot of money or you are the best stock picker in the world.
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Considering a couple in their early 40s with double income, that $3 million is not too unrealistic for a net worth in the NJ/NY area. Of course, "upper middle-class" typically involves additional assets from family sources.
 
I ask those who went to Rutgers before the sports program "got good:" why did you come here? Surely you could have went to a school with a better sports program?

Makes me wonder if those people would have went to the new Rutgers.
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I went to Rutgers College in the late 70s. It offered many very highly regarded programs back then, "Top 10" programs in History and English. They were my double major. Very solid back then. And tuition was $760 a semester. That was an incredible value.
 
I've always thought athletic excellence would change a lot of the perceptions at RU, I have a hard time believing if we had tournament level men's basketball and lacrosse programs to go along with our improved football and B1G TEN status it would not help.
But based on the majority of responses it seems you disagree. I'm constantly surrounded by Glen Ridge, Montclair, West Essex and MKA Lax players, many go on to play at UVA, Hopkins, Princeton, Syracuse etc…I'm sorry, but if we were good I think we'd get our fair share.
A lot of kids play sports to help them get into a better school. Princeton, Hopkins, and UVA are all great schools. The only outlier is SU. It's the same in football. No one on this board would fault a NJ kid picking Stanford over Rutgers.
 
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Considering a couple in their early 40s with double income, that $3 million is not too unrealistic for a net worth in the NJ/NY area. Of course, "upper middle-class" typically involves additional assets from family sources.

The 3 million of assets would be unrealistic with an $300k income in their forties unless they parents died already and they inherited millions. If they had 3 million in their forties then they would have 10-15 millions in their early sixties. My relatives, Rutgers graduates, have $300k income in their mid thirties but don't have $300k saved. With purchasing houses, taxes, kids education, excessive vacations , and cars like Beamers and Porsche SUV, they don't have the savings.
 
The 3 million of assets would be unrealistic with an $300k income in their forties unless they parents died already and they inherited millions. If they had 3 million in their forties then they would have 10-15 millions in their early sixties. My relatives, Rutgers graduates, have $300k income in their mid thirties but don't have $300k saved. With purchasing houses, taxes, kids education, excessive vacations , and cars like Beamers and Porsche SUV, they don't have the savings.

Hard to address this without coming across as a schmuck. But think beyond your personal experience, maybe? Wealth may come from various sources, earned or otherwise. Real estate, trusts, inheritances from those beyond parents, etc. in addition to stocks, bonds, options, of one's own doing. Upper Middle Class is what the topic is. Ok, I'll stop.
 
I posted this on the CE board but is relevant to the conversation here. It's about state universities upgrading their campuses with seemingly unnecessary amenities all in an effort to attract out-of-state tuition dollars:

http://www.thenation.com/article/207697/gentrification-higher-ed

All of the high-end dorms, hot tubs and lazy rivers being built on campus aren't just useless amenities - they are being built in partnership with private entities in order to attract out-of-state tuition as state funding is cut.

"Many of the participants in this relentless campus upscaling are private businesses, but it’s driven by public policy. Like other campuses, the University of Arizona is not getting fancier in spite of budget cuts; it’s getting fancier because of them. From 2002 to 2013, state appropriations shrank from $420 million to $270 million. Over the same period, the amount raised from student tuition grew from $179 million to $455 million. As at other schools, cuts in public financing have made the university more reliant on tuition—out-of-state tuition in particular. Over the last decade, the number of out-of-state students has been creeping up, from around 32 percent in 2004 to between 37 and 39 percent in recent years.

“If there’s very low levels of public investment, state or federal investment, you have to rely on tuition,” says University of Michigan sociologist Elizabeth Armstrong, the coauthor with Laura Hamilton of the 2013 book Paying for the Party: How College Maintains Inequality. “If you have to rely on tuition, you need to serve the people who pay the tuition, and given the cost of college, the people who can actually pay that money tend to be from quite affluent families, which puts universities into a position of trying to meet the wants, if not exactly needs, of the most well-heeled of their clientele.”
 
I posted this on the CE board but is relevant to the conversation here. It's about state universities upgrading their campuses with seemingly unnecessary amenities all in an effort to attract out-of-state tuition dollars:

http://www.thenation.com/article/207697/gentrification-higher-ed

All of the high-end dorms, hot tubs and lazy rivers being built on campus aren't just useless amenities - they are being built in partnership with private entities in order to attract out-of-state tuition as state funding is cut.

"Many of the participants in this relentless campus upscaling are private businesses, but it’s driven by public policy. Like other campuses, the University of Arizona is not getting fancier in spite of budget cuts; it’s getting fancier because of them. From 2002 to 2013, state appropriations shrank from $420 million to $270 million. Over the same period, the amount raised from student tuition grew from $179 million to $455 million. As at other schools, cuts in public financing have made the university more reliant on tuition—out-of-state tuition in particular. Over the last decade, the number of out-of-state students has been creeping up, from around 32 percent in 2004 to between 37 and 39 percent in recent years.

“If there’s very low levels of public investment, state or federal investment, you have to rely on tuition,” says University of Michigan sociologist Elizabeth Armstrong, the coauthor with Laura Hamilton of the 2013 book Paying for the Party: How College Maintains Inequality. “If you have to rely on tuition, you need to serve the people who pay the tuition, and given the cost of college, the people who can actually pay that money tend to be from quite affluent families, which puts universities into a position of trying to meet the wants, if not exactly needs, of the most well-heeled of their clientele.”

Cheap cawledge is soosillalism!!!!
 
Cheap cawledge is soosillalism!!!!

If anyone actually wants to make that argument, note that the AZ constitution has a provision that the tuition at state universities must be as "nearly free as possible."

But that argument still holds for the other 49 States.
 
Support football. Win a National Championship.... kids and their parents will bang down the doors to come.............
 
So you know for a fact that Alabama gets a much more robust share of upper middle class+ kids?

Also, why does it really matter?
 
So you know for a fact that Alabama gets a much more robust share of upper middle class+ kids?

Also, why does it really matter?
It doesn't, for me personally I get upset constantly sitting around fathers and kids that laugh at me when I say "what about Rutgers" Yea I know, we don't want kids like that…I know.
 
I can understand that. I'd just laugh to myself about how they (at least some of them) are going to pay $200K so their kid can get a fancy private school degree in "philosophy of life studies" and move back in until his early 30s or so.
 
I can understand that. I'd just laugh to myself about how they (at least some of them) are going to pay $200K so their kid can get a fancy private school degree in "philosophy of life studies" and move back in until his early 30s or so.
Painting with a broad brush, many of these kids are going to school to play a sport, caddy all summer long to make money or doing summer internships, great kids, great families.
 
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