WSJ ranking of US Colleges (9/22/21)

[Panthergrowl13]

The Wall Street Journal/Times Higher Education college rankings are based on 15 key indicators that assess colleges in four areas: Outcome, Resources, Engagement and Environment.

Unlike the US News ranking (National Universities) the WSJ ranking includes small regional colleges in their TOTAL rankings.

The WSJ ranking (9/22/21) of B1G and ACC Universities:

5 Duke
9 Northwestern
24 Michigan (Ann Arbor)
28 Notre Dame
33 UNC (Chapel Hill)
45 Illinois (Urbana)
48 Purdue (West Lafayette)
49 Miami
55 Virginia
57 Boston College
58 Wisconsin (Madison)
61 Wake Forest
69 Georgia Tech
80 Maryland (College Park)
81 MSU
83 PITT
85 Minnesota
97 Indiana (Bloomington)
99 Ohio State (Main)
104 Virginia Tech
117 NC State
117 Syracuse
136 Rutgers (NB)
141 Penn State (Main)
169 Iowa
173 Florida State
182 Clemson
363 Louisville
363 Nebraska (Lincoln)


I'm also sure some/many will disagree with these rankings but they are what they are.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[NotInRHouse]

The Wall Street Journal/Times Higher Education college rankings are based on 15 key indicators that assess colleges in four areas: Outcome, Resources, Engagement and Environment.

Unlike the US News ranking (National Universities) the WSJ ranking includes small regional colleges in their TOTAL rankings.

The WSJ ranking (9/22/21) of B1G and ACC Universities:

5 Duke
9 Northwestern
24 Michigan (Ann Arbor)
28 Notre Dame
33 UNC (Chapel Hill)
45 Illinois (Urbana)
48 Purdue (West Lafayette)
49 Miami
55 Virginia
57 Boston College
58 Wisconsin (Madison)
61 Wake Forest
69 Georgia Tech
80 Maryland (College Park)
81 MSU
83 PITT
85 Minnesota
97 Indiana (Bloomington)
99 Ohio State (Main)
104 Virginia Tech
117 NC State
117 Syracuse
136 Rutgers (NB)
141 Penn State (Main)
169 Iowa
173 Florida State
182 Clemson
363 Louisville
363 Nebraska (Lincoln)


I'm also sure some/many will disagree with these rankings but they are what they are.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Oh lord. Forgetting RU for a second, Miami over UVA? Purdue over UVA? On what planet?!

 

[bigmatt718]

The Wall Street Journal/Times Higher Education college rankings are based on 15 key indicators that assess colleges in four areas: Outcome, Resources, Engagement and Environment.

Unlike the US News ranking (National Universities) the WSJ ranking includes small regional colleges in their TOTAL rankings.

The WSJ ranking (9/22/21) of B1G and ACC Universities:

5 Duke
9 Northwestern
24 Michigan (Ann Arbor)
28 Notre Dame
33 UNC (Chapel Hill)
45 Illinois (Urbana)
48 Purdue (West Lafayette)
49 Miami
55 Virginia
57 Boston College
58 Wisconsin (Madison)
61 Wake Forest
69 Georgia Tech
80 Maryland (College Park)
81 MSU
83 PITT
85 Minnesota
97 Indiana (Bloomington)
99 Ohio State (Main)
104 Virginia Tech
117 NC State
117 Syracuse
136 Rutgers (NB)
141 Penn State (Main)
169 Iowa
173 Florida State
182 Clemson
363 Louisville
363 Nebraska (Lincoln)


I'm also sure some/many will disagree with these rankings but they are what they are.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Total clown rankings.

 

[retired711]

The most interesting thing about these rankings is that they include components for how students feel about the institution. Rutgers-New Brunswick does worse than it should. Can you believe that Rutgers-Camden students feel better about their institution than Rutgers-New Brunswick students feel about theirs? Rutgers-New Brunswick clearly needs to make students feel more positive about their experience.

 

[RU MAN]

Geez. The WSJ rankings make US News actually believable.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The most interesting thing about these rankings is that they include components for how students feel about the institution. Rutgers-New Brunswick does worse than it should. Can you believe that Rutgers-Camden students feel better about their institution than Rutgers-New Brunswick students feel about theirs? Rutgers-New Brunswick clearly needs to make students feel more positive about their experience.

Who are they asking? Are they just cold calling students?

My guess is most RU-C students just commute. They get a RU degree despite having less than the normal qualifications. So it's probably pretty easy to meet that standard.

 

[retired711]

Who are they asking? Are they just cold calling students?

My guess is most RU-C students just commute. They get a RU degree despite having less than the normal qualifications. So it's probably pretty easy to meet that standard.

Being a commuting student does not at all guarantee that one will like the college. In fact, it's probably the other way around because a campus with a lot of commuters cannot offer the kind of community atmosphere that a normal college does. What's more important, though, (and what I really should have stressed) is that Rutgers-New Brunswick comes out a lot poorer on this measure than institutions (including state universities) that are not nearly as good.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Being a commuting student does not at all guarantee that one will like the college. In fact, it's probably the other way around because a campus with a lot of commuters cannot offer the kind of community atmosphere that a normal college does. What's more important, though, (and what I really should have stressed) is that Rutgers-New Brunswick comes out a lot poorer on this measure than institutions (including state universities) that are not nearly as good.

If you're commuting though, isn't it more transactional? That's kind of how I thought about law school, because it wasn't on a big campus and most people lived at least a subway ride away.

I think when these numbers came up before NJ and NY schools were always low...it's just the culture unfortunately.

 

[retired711]

If you're commuting though, isn't it more transactional? That's kind of how I thought about law school, because it wasn't on a big campus and most people lived at least a subway ride away.

I think when these numbers came up before NJ and NY schools were always low...it's just the culture unfortunately.

Having it be more transactional decreases student satisfaction because there is little sense of belonging. BTW, if you look at the numbers, Stony Brook comes out better on the student satisfaction measures than Rutgers -New Brunswick. So it's not a NJ/NY thing. Rutgers-New Brunswick has a problem, and perhaps Holloway's talk of the "beloved community" is directed in part at solving it.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Rutgers is ranked the number 50 university in the world. In recruiting academics and athletics, Rutgers should be promoting the heck out of this. Always use the highest ranking.

World University Rankings 2021-22 | Global 2000 List | CWUR

Discover the world's top universities and best colleges for 2021-2022. Explore the Global 2000 List by the Center for World University Rankings (CWUR).

cwur.org

 

[NotInRHouse]

Having it be more transactional decreases student satisfaction because there is little sense of belonging. BTW, if you look at the numbers, Stony Brook comes out better on the student satisfaction measures than Rutgers -New Brunswick. So it's not a NJ/NY thing. Rutgers-New Brunswick has a problem, and perhaps Holloway's talk of the "beloved community" is directed in part at solving it.

Yeah worse than Stony Brook would not be good. I wonder what's up.

 

[retired711]

Yeah worse than Stony Brook would not be good. I wonder what's up.

We're also significantly below Delaware on students saying it was "the right choice." ( But for some reason we do better on "worth the cost' 0- Like I say, we've got a problem.

 

[NotInRHouse]

We're also significantly below Delaware on students saying it was "the right choice." ( But for some reason we do better on "worth the cost' 0- Like I say, we've got a problem.

I wonder if it's just a jaded attitude about picking an in state school for cost. How is TCNJ?

 

[retired711]

I wonder if it's just a jaded attitude about picking an in state school for cost. How is TCNJ?

*Way* above us on the three "student likes" criteria, although *way* below us in every other respect. This must be why TCNJ is able to compete with us so successfully for students.

 

[retired711]

It's also *really* shocking how much better Penn State does on these measures than Rutgers-New Brunswick. Yet in the total rankings, the two schools come out about the same. It can't just be football!

 

[goldaxis]

As a recent grad, you guys are putting too much stock and validity into WSJ’s rankings

 

[NotInRHouse]

It's also *really* shocking how much better Penn State does on these measures than Rutgers-New Brunswick. Yet in the total rankings, the two schools come out about the same. It can't just be football!

I'm not a WSJ subscriber so just relying on you here, lol. So I guess we're beating them in academic respects?

We're tied with them in USNWR...despite having a higher % accepted which I think boils down to RU having higher SAT/GPA.

 

[retired711]

Let me quote from them on their methodology:

"The WSJ/THE rankings are based on 15 factors across four main categories: Forty percent of each school’s overall score comes from student outcomes, including graduates’ salaries and debt; 30% comes from academic resources, including how much the college spends on teaching; 20% from student engagement, including whether students feel prepared to use their education in the real world, and 10% from the learning environment, including the diversity of the student body and academic staff."

Notice there is no "academic reputation" component. We beat the hell out of Penn State on "outcomes,: meaning higher salaries at graduation. (But note this may be partly because we are in the greater NYC area, where salaries are higher than elsewhere and has a higher cost of living.) They beat the hell out of us on "resources," They beat us by a lot of "student engagement (which is based on what students think) We beat them by a lot in "environment" which is largely a measure of student diversity. They beat us narrowly on student/faculty ratio and by a lot on academic spending per student. We are judged the better value because of our better outcomes and less student debt on graduation. (roughly $22,000 for us, $26,000 for them.) In all, we finish at 136 as compared to their 141. So it's not bad at all , But I'm concerned about student opinion. It seems clear that New Brunswick students do not sufficiently appreciate the value of the education they are getting.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

State Penn is four slots below Rutgers in the CWUR.

 

[retired711]

State Penn is four slots below Rutgers in the CWUR.

In other words, their academic reputations are oughly the same. That makes all the more remarkable that Penn States students seem so much more enthusiastic about their instituion than Rutgers students are. I find that very puzzling and troubling.

 

[NotInRHouse]

In other words, their academic reputations are oughly the same. That makes all the more remarkable that Penn States students seem so much more enthusiastic about their instituion than Rutgers students are. I find that very puzzling and troubling.

It's troubling for sure, but it's definitely more of a cult like environment over there. I am more concerned that a school like Stony Brook does better in that grading. How about some other peers- Binghamton or Maryland for example?

 

[retired711]

It's troubling for sure, but it's definitely more of a cult like environment over there. I am more concerned that a school like Stony Brook does better in that grading. How about some other peers- Binghamton or Maryland for example?

BTW, it's worth asking how Penn State became a "cult," and whether there is anything they are doing that we could be doing.

 

[retired711]

It's troubling for sure, but it's definitely more of a cult like environment over there. I am more concerned that a school like Stony Brook does better in that grading. How about some other peers- Binghamton or Maryland for example?

Binghamton is where we are on those measures, except that their students significantly favor the school on "worth the cost." Maryland beats us significantly on "inspiring" and "right choice," but is a little below us on "worth the cost." As I say above, Delaware also beats on the first two of those measures. No matter how you slice it, we are not doing as well as we should given the quality of the education we offer.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Camden, My best friends daughter who had very good grades and SAT’s, took the tour out at State Penn. Had already been admitted there, as well as Rutgers, TCNJ, Ithaca, The Q, James Madison, and one or two others. My best friend , who is really into sports, said the presentation was so over the top about sports that he felt like they were at a pep rally or bonfire. He and his wife didn’t say anything, though, wanted to let their daughter pick her own school. The daughter is the one who said “let’s get out of here!” She didn’t use the word cult, but said she felt like it was some kind of group indoctrination instead of a presentation about academics and what the school had to offer.

 

[retired711]

Camden, My best friends daughter who had very good grades and SAT’s, took the tour out at State Penn. Had already been admitted there, as well as Rutgers, TCNJ, Ithaca, The Q, James Madison, and one or two others. My best friend , who is really into sports, said the presentation was so over the top about sports that he felt like they were at a pep rally or bonfire. He and his wife didn’t say anything, though, wanted to let their daughter pick her own school. The daughter is the one who said “let’s get out of here!” She didn’t use the word cult, but said she felt like it was some kind of group indoctrination instead of a presentation about academics and what the school had to offer.

Very interesting! Unfortunately, your best friend's daughter seems to be the exception rather than the rule. For that matter, I've known parents and high school students who have walked out of the Rutgers tour determined never to go back to the school. Different strokes for different folks, I guess!

 

[retired711]

On a hunch, I just checked Ohio State's scores. They beat us in the student categories about as badly as Penn State does, and I've never heard Ohio State described as having a cult-like atmosphere. Could it be that athletic success really is the secret to student satisfaction? The criteria used by the WSJ suggest that Ohio State outranks Rutgers such as spending per student-- they're almost 50% greater per student than Rutgers -- and perhaps that accounts for the difference in student satisfaction. They also are ranked higher on "outcomes," but I don't understand why because starting salaries for our graduates substantially exceeds theirs.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

One major issue is that Rutgers has very little financial aid to give to students because New Jersey is near the bottom in its support of public colleges.So the negative feelings start with the student, as well as Mom and Dad, before the kid even gets to campus. Something is really crazy when good NJ students can go to out of state schools for the same price as attending their own university.

 

[NotInRHouse]

BTW, it's worth asking how Penn State became a "cult," and whether there is anything they are doing that we could be doing.

Hmm I don't want to get in trouble, but let's just say there a demographic factors to that place that are not present in NJ in significant number that lead to what goes on over there. Sports is really only one small element of it.

To me part of the charm of NJ (and perhaps the tri state area generally) is that monolithic thought is generally frowned upon. The Virginia Tech shooting happened while I was at RU and my friends and I at the time believed- and I still believe- that the chances of something like that at RU are significantly less because whatever a college age kid could want at RU, he or she will find easily. That leads to a less cohesive culture in some ways, and my guess that's what is reflected in some of the numbers. I think the people who look at RU especially positively are people who like the diversity of thought.

But the flipside of that equation is that there are people in NJ who grow up quite cloistered and who very much like the idea of everyone around them looking and thinking the way they do. This is why the Cult is popular, why Villanova ("Vanillanova") are considered popular in some NJ quarters.

The other thing is that RU is especially popular among first generation college students and first generation Americans. So they are not instilled with some of what kids in other parts of the US are in terms of colleges and college culture. My parents dropped out of a commuter college in another state after one semester. They didn't know boo about applying to college, never mind what college was actually like when you got there. I'm the first person in my family to graduate and based on the numbers I've seen I had lots of company at RU I would not have had in the rest of the B1G. I happened to have a great experience at RU and that fandom will pass to my kids. But I think there are probably lots of kids who maybe worked their way through, and/or commuted in those demographics who may feel differently. Also, from 2015-19, the sports programs were generally miserable so there wasn't any pride being built during that time which could contribute as well.

 

[NotInRHouse]

On a hunch, I just checked Ohio State's scores. They beat us in the student categories about as badly as Penn State does, and I've never heard Ohio State described as having a cult-like atmosphere. Could it be that athletic success really is the secret to student satisfaction? The criteria used by the WSJ suggest that Ohio State outranks Rutgers such as spending per student-- they're almost 50% greater per student than Rutgers -- and perhaps that accounts for the difference in student satisfaction. They also are ranked higher on "outcomes," but I don't understand why because starting salaries for our graduates substantially exceeds theirs.

In Ohio (and most of the B1G) you are raised to believe the state flagship is the goal. There are few (if any) schools in the Midwestern states (other than U of Chicago and NW which is in the B1G anyway) that hold a candle to the state U. This is very different here.

In NJ there's a lot more of a culture of pushing for the Ivies (or something similar) which I think is healthy, but there are also subcultures where a pricey Catholic school are favored or even just the idea of paying for a lesser OOS school is favored. Delaware and the Cult being great examples of that phenomenon. And in the case of Delaware, it's closer to home for a decent chunk of the state so it isn't even about getting away.

It's not NJ BTW. No one in NY is raised to love SUNY and in a place like Fairfield County no one is raised to love UConn. Hell even in the collar counties few are raised to love the Cult. I think from DC to Boston you're raised to be a striver for the most part, the state school is a back up. Since the recession that shifted and COVID will probably shift it too but not to the point where it is in much of the US.

 

[retired711]

You make good points, But remember that Stony Brook, although part of SUNY, gets better student ratings than Rutgers-New Brunswick. And there's just as much culture in NY of pushing for the Ivies.

P.S. By the way, U. Conn also leads Rutgers-New Brunswick in the student opinion rankings. The Ivies culture is at least as strong there as here.

 

[NotInRHouse]

You make good points, But remember that Stony Brook, although part of SUNY, gets better student ratings than Rutgers-New Brunswick. And there's just as much culture in NY of pushing for the Ivies.

P.S. By the way, U. Conn also leads Rutgers-New Brunswick in the student opinion rankings. The Ivies culture is at least as strong there as here.

For this specifically I attribute two things. One, the perception, true or not, of the "RU Screw". And two, NJ people having a reputation, true or not, as being negative, certainly more than in CT and probably more than NY.

Personally I found the RU Screw to not really be there. I didn't deal with very much bureaucracy, at least not to the extent some people claim there was. I found the buses sometimes annoying, but that was mostly during rush hour. Also, I found the food at Brower to not be good (the main CAC dining hall) but my understanding is that it's way improved now. Livingston is way nicer than when I was in school. There certainly seems to be things moving in a positive direction even with COVID taken into account. Maybe there's some gloom about how COVID was handled (not sure the dates of the data) but that again would be present at any school in this area and also most of the B1G. I would be mad too if 1.5 years of college was taken away from me.

 

[retired711]

For this specifically I attribute two things. One, the perception, true or not, of the "RU Screw". And two, NJ people having a reputation, true or not, as being negative, certainly more than in CT and probably more than NY.

Personally I found the RU Screw to not really be there. I didn't deal with very much bureaucracy, at least not to the extent some people claim there was. I found the buses sometimes annoying, but that was mostly during rush hour. Also, I found the food at Brower to not be good (the main CAC dining hall) but my understanding is that it's way improved now. Livingston is way nicer than when I was in school. There certainly seems to be things moving in a positive direction even with COVID taken into account. Maybe there's some gloom about how COVID was handled (not sure the dates of the data) but that again would be present at any school in this area and also most of the B1G. I would be mad too if 1.5 years of college was taken away from me.

It's not an NJ thing; we've already seen that TCNJ ranks higher in these respects than Rutgers does.

Some of Rutgers' problems are not solvable. It does not help to have such a dispersed campus where students need to ride buses regularly. It does not help to be cut off from the water by a busy highway. It does not help to have a state legislature with few Rutgers graduates. It does not help to be in an area with so many other colleges, some of which have really good reputations.

But Rutgers does need to ask itself what it can do better. One thing it can do is to have intercollegiate athletic programs that both win and do not run large deficits than take money away from academics. Another is to do everything possible to end the perceptions of the RU screw; that requires simplifying wherever possible, investing in undergraduate education, and lessening the need for students to deal with bureaucracy. It's probably better for alums and others affiliated with Rutgers to ask what can be done along these lines rather than to constantly excuse Rutgers' shortcomings or to complain without offering constructive suggestions. Somehow Rutgers manages to be less than the sum of its parts; that needs to change.

 

[retired711]

It's not an NJ thing; we've already seen that TCNJ ranks higher in these respects than Rutgers does.

Some of Rutgers' problems are not solvable. It does not help to have such a dispersed campus where students need to ride buses regularly. It does not help to be cut off from the water by a busy highway. It does not help to have a state legislature with few Rutgers graduates. It does not help to be in an area with so many other colleges, some of which have really good reputations.

But Rutgers does need to ask itself what it can do better. One thing it can do is to have intercollegiate athletic programs that both win and do not run large deficits than take money away from academics. Another is to do everything possible to end the perceptions of the RU screw; that requires simplifying wherever possible, investing in undergraduate education, and lessening the need for students to deal with bureaucracy. It's probably better for alums and others affiliated with Rutgers to ask what can be done along these lines rather than to constantly excuse Rutgers' shortcomings or to complain without offering constructive suggestions. Somehow Rutgers manages to be less than the sum of its parts; that needs to change.

I'll shut up, but I should add that anything Rutgers can do to make New Brunswick a nicer locale would also help a lot.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Maybe TCNJ handled COVID differently- not sure.

I think a lot of big colleges have buses.

I think the spread of the campuses is a taste thing- some like, some not.

I think the biggest issues you highlighted are a lot of competition, lack of political will (though this changed recently, Murphy has been very pro RU) and NB the city not always having the best reputation. But I think this is starting to change in general as people are starting to herald NJ cities overall again.

In general I still think that parents in NJ think they're special for paying extra for Cult or Delaware is a pretty unique and weird NJ problem.

 

[bigmatt718]

Maybe TCNJ handled COVID differently- not sure.

I think a lot of big colleges have buses.

I think the spread of the campuses is a taste thing- some like, some not.

I think the biggest issues you highlighted are a lot of competition, lack of political will (though this changed recently, Murphy has been very pro RU) and NB the city not always having the best reputation. But I think this is starting to change in general as people are starting to herald NJ cities overall again.

In general I still think that parents in NJ think they're special for paying extra for Cult or Delaware is a pretty unique and weird NJ problem.

Completely dumb to send their kids to Culty Valley, a school with the same academics as RU but for 3x the cost due to OOS prices, or to UDel or Temple, schools with weaker academics for OOS prices as well. If your kids get into RU and don't get into an Ivy or an elite state school (UVA, Michigan, UCLA, Cal-Berkeley, UNC), or an elite private/liberal arts school (Duke, NW, Stanford, Vanderbilt, etc), it's a waste of money sending your kids OOS for college.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

I'll shut up, but I should add that anything Rutgers can do to make New Brunswick a nicer locale would also help a lot.

New Brunswick is light years ahead of what is was in the late 70s and early 80s. The State Theater, the brand new New Brunswick Performing Arts Center, a zillion restaurants for every taste, Johnson & Johnson headquarters, all the new buildings on College Avenue, the new Rutgers CINJ building going up, the new Rutgers-Princeton -various corporations building downtown, and about 2,000 new luxury apartments that have been built in just the past three years.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Each year, there is less and less need for students to be on a bus. There is a more focused effort to explain to Freshmen what campus is best to live on for their anticipated major. In addition, more and more classes are available in Video theaters so kids can attend in person or by video theater.

 

[retired711]

Maybe TCNJ handled COVID differently- not sure.

I think a lot of big colleges have buses.

I think the spread of the campuses is a taste thing- some like, some not.

I think the biggest issues you highlighted are a lot of competition, lack of political will (though this changed recently, Murphy has been very pro RU) and NB the city not always having the best reputation. But I think this is starting to change in general as people are starting to herald NJ cities overall again.

In general I still think that parents in NJ think they're special for paying extra for Cult or Delaware is a pretty unique and weird NJ problem.

I think you're going to great lengths to disregard data that clearly shows that Rutgers' students do not have as favorable perception of their school as students to at many other schools. That perception helps to drive the feeling among a substantial state high school kids that Rutgers is a place to settle for, rather than a place to seek out. I believe Rutgers needs to do much more to address the issues that cause these perceptions. But I have made my point (even if you, among others, disagree with it), so I will not continue this thread further.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Even from a non-Rutgers perspective, this list is questionable. Nebraskans are extremely proud of their university and they are wayyy down the list. Clemson? Kids are beating the doors down to go there and the best promoters of the school include current students. I know personally because my nephew and his parents took a self-guided tour last Spring and every kid they talked with gushed over how much they love the school.

 

[goldaxis]

I think you're going to great lengths to disregard data that clearly shows that Rutgers' students do not have as favorable perception of their school as students to at many other schools. That perception helps to drive the feeling among a substantial state high school kids that Rutgers is a place to settle for, rather than a place to seek out. I believe Rutgers needs to do much more to address the issues that cause these perceptions. But I have made my point (even if you, among others, disagree with it), so I will not continue this thread further.

What data? From WSJ? I never got any emails or had somebody reach out to me regarding what my opinion of Rutgers was when I was a student nor did I hear anybody else talk about it and I was heavily involved on campus. I saw that you mentioned “RU Screw” earlier and honestly if you think that is unique to Rutgers than I don’t know what to tell you. The truth of the matter is that Rutgers is a place where you have to actively be involved and use the resources that Rutgers provide to really know that it’s an incredible institution and is one of the best in the country. Personally, I have noticed that the people who don’t have high opinions on Rutgers didn’t do much during their years there other than going to classes and back to their dorm/house. Those people tend to me loudest as well when it comes to complaining.

With all of that said, I do agree with you that Rutgers does needs to get better on changing does perceptions, and I have started noticing that they are slowly. It’s going to take a while, but I believe the perception is going to change in Jersey.