COVID-19 Pandemic: Transmissions, Deaths, Treatments, Vaccines, Interventions and More...

[Akron Buck]

Problem is the world was listening to the WHO and China and they were lying and covering for the communist regime the entire time.

WHO says masks are unnecessary WHO says no evidence of person to person transmission. All propaganda from China who didn't want the world to know how bad it was, they were lying about their numbers not wanting the rest of the world to block them off to stop the spread.

 

[RU4Real]

But the article in the Washington Post does say there was demand...

It was Jan. 22, a day after the first case of covid-19 was detected in the United States, and orders were pouring into Michael Bowen’s company outside Fort Worth, some from as far away as Hong Kong.

Bowen’s medical supply company, Prestige Ameritech, could ramp up production to make an additional 1.7 million N95 masks a week.

Whatever he made, someone was going buy. Whether it was here or there they were going to move.

Again, I don't think you can reliably make that assumption, if you're in the driver's seat.

"Orders... pouring in" doesn't suggest that there was more demand than supply. The first paragraph you quoted and the second paragraph you quoted are not specifically related.

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. That's what we do, here. But there's a very specific formula for determining whether it was worth it for Bowen to spend $X revitalizing an idle production line and neither you nor the Post has done that math. We have to assume that Bowen did.

 

[RU4Real]

Problem is the world was listening to the WHO and China and they were lying and covering for the communist regime the entire time.

WHO says masks are unnecessary WHO says no evidence of person to person transmission. All propaganda from China who didn't want the world to know how bad it was, they were lying about their numbers not wanting the rest of the world to block them off to stop the spread.

Show your work.

 

[e5fdny]

Again, I don't think you can reliably make that assumption, if you're in the driver's seat.

"Orders... pouring in" doesn't suggest that there was more demand than supply. The first paragraph you quoted and the second paragraph you quoted are not specifically related.

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. That's what we do, here. But there's a very specific formula for determining whether it was worth it for Bowen to spend $X revitalizing an idle production line and neither you nor the Post has done that math. We have to assume that Bowen did.

This was really my point here. ;)

It was an opportunity to place blame.

And I agree it’s Mr. Bowen’s decision on how to proceed. After all it’s his company.

But also, haven’t we been told how much we needed the N95 and how important it was (initially) for those in the healthcare front lines and then for the rest of us? It doesn’t take Tom Brady to figure out we might need more, a lot more, of those things.

 

[RU848789]

So SK reported 34 new cases in their last report. This followed days of 12 and 18 new cases.

I don't think it warrants the term "spike" but it is a rise in cases given they were in single digits for like 3 or 4 days prior.

Because of this rise in cases they shut back down bars and night clubs(or something, don't know the exact details). On the one hand you have to commend their vigilance. On the other hand, if this is their plan of attack, by the time they are totally in the clear on Covid19, the next pandemic will be ready to sweep through.

Talked about this yesterday - here's the link. Extreme preparedness and vigilance is the only way to stay ahead of flare-ups to prevent them from becoming massive outbreaks. They've done fantastic on a couple of other flare-ups, but this one is worse, so let's see how they do. If we had followed their path we'd likely have about 1500 dead right now and would've never had full lockdowns. We're about to try to follow that path now in the NE US/CA/OR/WA.

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/t...ocial-distancing.191275/page-105#post-4549479

 

[RU4Real]

This was really my point here. ;)

It was an opportunity to place blame.

And I agree it’s Mr. Bowen’s decision on how to proceed. After all it’s his company.

But also, haven’t we been told how much we needed the N95 and how important it was (initially) for those in the healthcare front lines and then for the rest of us? It doesn’t take Tom Brady to figure out we might need more, a lot more, of those things.

But again, in the beginning the administration and the CDC were publicly saying that the public not only didn't need to wear masks, but *shouldn't* wear masks.

If that's the public-facing message, then the perceived importance of PPE within the medical community could become diminished, as well. The clarity of the demand curve gets gauzy.

Personally, I'd like to know what the necessary CapEx totaled. Just for the sake of curiosity.

 

[RU-05]

Talked about this yesterday - here's the link. Extreme preparedness and vigilance is the only way to stay ahead of flare-ups to prevent them from becoming massive outbreaks. They've done fantastic on a couple of other flare-ups, but this one is worse, so let's see how they do. If we had followed their path we'd likely have about 1500 dead right now and would've never had full lockdowns. We're about to try to follow that path now in the NE US/CA/OR/WA.

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/t...ocial-distancing.191275/page-105#post-4549479

We've never had full lock downs either.

SK has done a great job at keeping their #'s down thus far, but the fact that they have to implement more closures this far down the timeline does raise questions as to how long they will have to deal with this while following this course of action.

 

[e5fdny]

But again, in the beginning the administration and the CDC were publicly saying that the public not only didn't need to wear masks, but *shouldn't* wear masks.

If that's the public-facing message, then the perceived importance of PPE within the medical community could become diminished, as well. The clarity of the demand curve gets gauzy.

Personally, I'd like to know what the necessary CapEx totaled. Just for the sake of curiosity.

The part about individual institutions telling their people NOT to wear them is to use a tMB phrase...mind bottling.

That’s the thing I have the biggest problem with.

 

[RU848789]

Don't know if this was posted or not already but just saw on the news this morning and found a related article that frontline workers in NY(healthcare, transit, first responders) tested for antibodies at about the same rate or less than the general population. Might think they might have a higher infection rate but looks to be about the same....proper protection and hygiene work.

From the article:

Cuomo said 27,000 healthcare workers across 25 downstate facilities were tested for antibodies.

In New York City, 20% of the general public had antibodies, compared to about 12% of healthcare workers.

In Westchester, near the state’s first coronavirus outbreak, nearly 14% of the general public had antibodies, while just about 7% of healthcare workers had them.

Nearby Long Island tested at roughly the same rate: 11.4% of the general public tested for antibodies while healthcare workers were at 11.1%.

Cuomo said the results suggest that healthcare workers must have protective equipment, like masks, gloves and gowns⁠—and that along with hand sanitizer, proves effective against preventing the virus’ spread.

“We were afraid of what was going to happen” to healthcare workers, Cuomo said, adding that the numbers show healthcare workers are following the protective equipment protocols and therefore getting infected at lower rates.

“Those masks work,” Cuomo said. “If they’re working for front line workers, they’re going to work for people in their day to day lives.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisett...9-compared-to-public-cuomo-says/#48f1d3be6619

Wow, been waiting to see these data and have to say I'm a bit surprised - really would've thought infection rates would be higher in people dealing with infected patients. This truly shows the importance of wearing masks (everyone), social distancing where possible, and frequent hand-washing, which are all standard hospital practices in preventing infectious disease spread, but especially during a pandemic, which is why people were screaming about not having enough PPE.

 

[RU-05]

Wow, been waiting to see these data and have to say I'm a bit surprised - really would've thought infection rates would be higher in people dealing with infected patients. This truly shows the importance of wearing masks (everyone), social distancing where possible, and frequent hand-washing, which are all standard hospital practices in preventing infectious disease spread, but especially during a pandemic, which is why people were screaming about not having enough PPE.

I tend to think this shows the importance of PPE and hand washing more then social distancing. I'm sure they try to social distance when possible, but for the most part, it's just not possible in patient care.

 

[RU848789]

We've never had full lock downs either.

SK has done a great job at keeping their #'s down thus far, but the fact that they have to implement more closures this far down the timeline does raise questions as to how long they will have to deal with this while following this course of action.

We've had far greater lockdowns (probably a poor word choice on my part) than they have had, i.e., they never had "stay at home" orders like we did, although they're not "back to normal" either. People are mostly still practicing social distancing and everyone wears a mask when out or at work or in a restaurant, but they've held a national election and people are all working. They also have more aggressive contact tracing and quarantining rules than many in the US would likely support - hell, we have people ready to storm the gates over not being able to go to a salon.

They're committed to doing this until there's a vaccine. I wonder if a "cure" for those who get infected would be good enough for them to relax they're restrictions/interventions, since some people who recover are still having side effects.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52482553

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/whats-south-koreas-secret/611215/

 

[RUhasarrived]

Your chances of dying from the virus in NJ are now about 1 in 1,000.

According to sheknows.com,your chances of being born with 11 toes or 11 fingers are 1 in 500.

 

[RUevolution36]

That’s part of it too.

It was originally for air quality, but really became more mainstream when SARS hit.

 

[RU-05]

Your chances of dying from the virus in NJ are now about 1 in 1,000.

According to sheknows.com,your chances of being born with 11 toes or 11 fingers are 1 in 500.

I'm going to say no way on the bold.

 

[RUJohnny]

Your chances of dying from the virus in NJ are now about 1 in 1,000.

According to sheknows.com,your chances of being born with 11 toes or 11 fingers are 1 in 500.

and if you don't live in a nursing home, it's closer to 1 in 2,000.

 

[RU-05]

We've had far greater lockdowns (probably a poor word choice on my part) than they have had, i.e., they never had "stay at home" orders like we did, although they're not "back to normal" either. People are mostly still practicing social distancing and everyone wears a mask when out or at work or in a restaurant, but they've held a national election and people are all working. They also have more aggressive contact tracing and quarantining rules than many in the US would likely support - hell, we have people ready to storm the gates over not being able to go to a salon.

They're committed to doing this until there's a vaccine. I wonder if a "cure" for those who get infected would be good enough for them to relax they're restrictions/interventions, since some people who recover are still having side effects.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52482553

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/whats-south-koreas-secret/611215/

But you have at times expressed hope that we are or will approach herd immunity. Certainly we are much closer then SK at this point.

Depending on the if and when in regards to a vaccine or effective treatment, but there could be a point where we are in a better situation then SK.

 

[bac2therac]

We've had far greater lockdowns (probably a poor word choice on my part) than they have had, i.e., they never had "stay at home" orders like we did, although they're not "back to normal" either. People are mostly still practicing social distancing and everyone wears a mask when out or at work or in a restaurant, but they've held a national election and people are all working. They also have more aggressive contact tracing and quarantining rules than many in the US would likely support - hell, we have people ready to storm the gates over not being able to go to a salon.

They're committed to doing this until there's a vaccine. I wonder if a "cure" for those who get infected would be good enough for them to relax they're restrictions/interventions, since some people who recover are still having side effects.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52482553

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/whats-south-koreas-secret/611215/

we are not south korea and never will be....so trying to say everyday that we should have done what they did is irrelevant to what we are as a nation, I dont ever want to be like South Korea,.

 

[RU848789]

It's a basic principle of healthcare, personal protective equipment provides barriers which help reduce the incidence of transmission. How the higher ups failed to endorse this simple concept for two months and encourage the public to wear masks is bewildering.

Any PPE > No PPE.

They didn't want a panic. This is 100% on Trump and his people. The internal rationalization was that if the administration came out, early, and told everyone to wear masks while Trump was still appearing on Fox telling people that we had 15 cases and then it would go to zero and that the virus would suddenly go away, like a miracle, the broad realization that he was full of shit would hit hard.

LETSGO - agree in general, but I can give the government a pass until late February, when asymptomatic transmissions were truly confirmed. I remember posting about wearing masks and the Asian mask culture, borne out of the SARS/MERS outbreaks (and general hygiene practices in some countries, like Japan, that go back decades) back in early March, so surely our scientific leadership should have known better (especially the CDC - and the WHO) and not waited until early April to recommend face masks for all.

However, to 4Real's point, which I agree with, I'll always wonder how much pressure people like Fauci were under to finesse this one, given POTUS statements downplaying the pandemic and the practical knowledge that we simply were never going to have enough masks for more than health care workers (and not even enough for them), anyway, since we had already dropped the ball on that one from a Federal perspective. In the story below, from 3/3, Fauci was clearly hedging, IMO, but he knows he has to pick his battles to remain employed.

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, an agency within HHS, told the Senate committee on Tuesday that masks are usually recommended for those who are infected and health-care workers, but not for the general population. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention currently does not recommend the use of face masks by the general public to prevent COVID-19.

“The general public who could wear them, that could certainly prevent droplets from someone who is sneezing and coughing on you. The kind of protecting people think it does,” he said. “So, therefore, there are some downsides because people keep fussing with the masks.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/03/us-...n-coronavirus-pandemic-hhs-official-says.html

Prior to that, it wasn't until about late February that asymptomatic transmissions were confirmed (which is the biggest reason for everyone to wear masks), so I can forgive the government for not insisting on a mask-wearing-culture before about early March, but do think the CDC guidance on everyone wearing masks should have been issued then, rather than weeks later. Also, some will find the quote from 2/3 from Fauci saying "there's no doubt that asymptomatic transmission is occurring" but that was based on a flawed German paper that was retracted (the source patient actually had symptoms before infecting 4 others).

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/26/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic.html

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/paper-non-symptomatic-patient-transmitting-coronavirus-wrong

And for the record, here's Fauci's perspective on masks, looking backwards, from his interview the other day in NatGeo. Again, finessing, IMO.

What’s your position on the general public wearing face masks?

I'm glad you asked, because it has evolved over the weeks and months. When there was first discussion, it was at a time when face masks—either surgical masks or N95 respirators—were at high scarcity.

Let's assume that we now have enough masks or that you could easily make a cloth covering, as was suggested appropriately by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. I think those are reasonable assumptions. We know that the masks are better in the health-care setting to prevent someone who's infected from coughing and sneezing and infecting people in the environment. When you look at what the mask does for the general population, the data are not 100 percent: It doesn't 100 percent protect you from infecting somebody else, and it certainly doesn't 100 percent prevent somebody else from infecting you.

But if you wear a mask, you are getting some protection for yourself, and if you happen to be infected and don't know it, you're to some extent preventing transmission to someone else. Given that, it just makes sense that first of all, the best way to prevent spread is to maintain the physical distance of six feet.

So, if you're in a situation where you're in contact with no one, then you don't have to be walking around with a mask all day, that's for sure. But if you are in a situation where you are going to be within the realm of six feet—the grocery store or even walking out on the street—then wear it.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...xo1UX1TCfGJ6ZKwE63aSjusUxsKz8R7LN9_MueuTYUje4

 

[RU4Real]

When there was first discussion, it was at a time when face masks—either surgical masks or N95 respirators—were at high scarcity.

Boom. When this statement is part of his post-mortem talk track, then it's inescapable that it was also part of the decision calculus. He could have simply stopped talking after saying this.

 

[e5fdny]

LETSGO - agree in general, but I can give the government a pass until late February, when asymptomatic transmissions were truly confirmed. I remember posting about wearing masks and the Asian mask culture, borne out of the SARS/MERS outbreaks (and general hygiene practices in some countries, like Japan, that go back decades) back in early March, so surely our scientific leadership should have known better (especially the CDC - and the WHO) and not waited until early April to recommend face masks for all.

However, to 4Real's point, which I agree with, I'll always wonder how much pressure people like Fauci were under to finesse this one, given POTUS statements downplaying the pandemic and the practical knowledge that we simply were never going to have enough masks for more than health care workers (and not even enough for them), anyway, since we had already dropped the ball on that one from a Federal perspective. In the story below, from 3/3, Fauci was clearly hedging, IMO, but he knows he has to pick his battles to remain employed.

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, an agency within HHS, told the Senate committee on Tuesday that masks are usually recommended for those who are infected and health-care workers, but not for the general population. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention currently does not recommend the use of face masks by the general public to prevent COVID-19.

“The general public who could wear them, that could certainly prevent droplets from someone who is sneezing and coughing on you. The kind of protecting people think it does,” he said. “So, therefore, there are some downsides because people keep fussing with the masks.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/03/us-...n-coronavirus-pandemic-hhs-official-says.html

Prior to that, it wasn't until about late February that asymptomatic transmissions were confirmed (which is the biggest reason for everyone to wear masks), so I can forgive the government for not insisting on a mask-wearing-culture before about early March, but do think the CDC guidance on everyone wearing masks should have been issued then, rather than weeks later. Also, some will find the quote from 2/3 from Fauci saying "there's no doubt that asymptomatic transmission is occurring" but that was based on a flawed German paper that was retracted (the source patient actually had symptoms before infecting 4 others).

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/26/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic.html

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/paper-non-symptomatic-patient-transmitting-coronavirus-wrong

And for the record, here's Fauci's perspective on masks, looking backwards, from his interview the other day in NatGeo. Again, finessing, IMO.

What’s your position on the general public wearing face masks?

I'm glad you asked, because it has evolved over the weeks and months. When there was first discussion, it was at a time when face masks—either surgical masks or N95 respirators—were at high scarcity.

Let's assume that we now have enough masks or that you could easily make a cloth covering, as was suggested appropriately by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. I think those are reasonable assumptions. We know that the masks are better in the health-care setting to prevent someone who's infected from coughing and sneezing and infecting people in the environment. When you look at what the mask does for the general population, the data are not 100 percent: It doesn't 100 percent protect you from infecting somebody else, and it certainly doesn't 100 percent prevent somebody else from infecting you.

But if you wear a mask, you are getting some protection for yourself, and if you happen to be infected and don't know it, you're to some extent preventing transmission to someone else. Given that, it just makes sense that first of all, the best way to prevent spread is to maintain the physical distance of six feet.

So, if you're in a situation where you're in contact with no one, then you don't have to be walking around with a mask all day, that's for sure. But if you are in a situation where you are going to be within the realm of six feet—the grocery store or even walking out on the street—then wear it.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/05/anthony-fauci-no-scientific-evidence-the-coronavirus-was-made-in-a-chinese-lab-cvd/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=SpecialEdition_20200508&rid=3F7A7D00850AD922736B3173646A296D&fbclid=IwAR1aBM73OIaZMlxo1UX1TCfGJ6ZKwE63aSjusUxsKz8R7LN9_MueuTYUje4

I’m talking about the individual institutions saying to their people, “we’re not going to do this here, we don’t like the look it’s pushing.”

If you want to do the blame thing it starts there. Because they’re the ones who are supposed to know better.

 

[RU848789]

But you have at times expressed hope that we are or will approach herd immunity. Certainly we are much closer then SK at this point.

Depending on the if and when in regards to a vaccine or effective treatment, but there could be a point where we are in a better situation then SK.

Before we had antibody testing, I had expressed some theoretical hope that far more were infected than we know ("gee it would be great if we were close to herd immunity"), but now that we have population based antibody testing and know that we're probably at 3-5% in the US and maybe 20-25% in the worst hit areas, like NYC, I want no part of trying to "achieve" herd immunity (60-70% as per most experts) at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives.

I simply can't imagine why we wouldn't pursue the SK model to save so many lives, even if we have to temporarily make sacrifices and give up a bit of freedom. Unless they blow it and can't control some outbreak I simply can't imagine us ever being in a better state than they are, since they're not having 50-100X more people per capita dying like we are.

I guess we could go for herd immunity with 500-1000K dying (unless theories of herd immunity being a lot lower than originally thought are true, but even then it's still 100-200K or more) and then not have to worry about restrictions any more, but that's an incredibly steep price to pay, especially when they're able to still have a functioning society with everyone working, but with restrictions.

 

[RU848789]

Boom. When this statement is part of his post-mortem talk track, then it's inescapable that it was also part of the decision calculus. He could have simply stopped talking after saying this.

Yep, a fully transparent government would've said, sorry, we don't have enough for everyone and need to preserve what we have for health care workers, but they can help, so start making your own, as it's better than nothing. This should have been in late Feb/early March, not April 3rd. End of story, like you said.

 

[RU848789]

we are not south korea and never will be....so trying to say everyday that we should have done what they did is irrelevant to what we are as a nation, I dont ever want to be like South Korea,.

Meaning you're not willing to make a few sacrifices to save 500-1000K lives? I effing hate, hate, hate the idea of being tracked and made to go to a quarantine center if I have mild symptoms, but I'm willing to do those things for the greater good of society for some months or a year.

 

[RU848789]

Boom. We've all been wondering what China did and this looks very bad. There are people in China who should roast for this, if this report from German Intelligence is substantiated, as well as a few folks in the WHO, too, although their delay was about a week vs. the 4-5 weeks that China wasn't sharing what they knew before Xi supposedly asked Tedros to delay any announcements.

Chinese leader Xi Jinping asked World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus to suppress news about the Wuhan coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak, the German intelligence agency BND found, according to a report by German magazine Der Spiegel.

During a conversation on Jan. 21, Xi reportedly asked Tedros not to announce that the virus could be transmitted between humans and to delay any declaration of a coronavirus pandemic.

It took until the end of January before the WHO declared that the coronavirus outbreak needed to receive international attention. Because of China’s delay, the world wasted four to six weeks it could have used better to counter the virus from spreading, the BND concluded.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3931126

I wonder if there's a thread on this on the CE board...

 

[e5fdny]

Yep, a fully transparent government would've said, sorry, we don't have enough for everyone and need to preserve what we have for health care workers, but they can help, so start making your own, as it's better than nothing. This should have been in late Feb/early March, not April 3rd. End of story, like you said.

But this was already being said by others (public/private institutions and different agencies) and being practiced across the board.

 

[e5fdny]

Boom. We've all been wondering what China did and this looks very bad. There are people in China who should roast for this, if this report from German Intelligence is substantiated, as well as a few folks in the WHO, too, although their delay was about a week vs. the 4-5 weeks that China wasn't sharing what they knew before Xi supposedly asked Tedros to delay any announcements.

Chinese leader Xi Jinping asked World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus to suppress news about the Wuhan coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak, the German intelligence agency BND found, according to a report by German magazine Der Spiegel.

During a conversation on Jan. 21, Xi reportedly asked Tedros not to announce that the virus could be transmitted between humans and to delay any declaration of a coronavirus pandemic.

It took until the end of January before the WHO declared that the coronavirus outbreak needed to receive international attention. Because of China’s delay, the world wasted four to six weeks it could have used better to counter the virus from spreading, the BND concluded.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3931126

I wonder if there's a thread on this on the CE board...

Others besides Germany have said similar for awhile now.

 

[e5fdny]

Meaning you're not willing to make a few sacrifices to save 500-1000K lives? I effing hate, hate, hate the idea of being tracked and made to go to a quarantine center if I have mild symptoms, but I'm willing to do those things for the greater good of society for some months or a year.

How about forever?

 

[bac2therac]

Meaning you're not willing to make a few sacrifices to save 500-1000K lives? I effing hate, hate, hate the idea of being tracked and made to go to a quarantine center if I have mild symptoms, but I'm willing to do those things for the greater good of society for some months or a year.

absolutely not, hopefully most americans stand up for their rights to not be sent to a camp to be quarantined.

 

[Upstream]

How about forever?

Are you not feeling confident that there will be a viable vaccine widely available within a year?

 

[RU-05]

I simply can't imagine why we wouldn't pursue the SK model to save so many lives, even if we have to temporarily make sacrifices and give up a bit of freedom. Unless they blow it and can't control some outbreak I simply can't imagine us ever being in a better state than they are, since they're not having 50-100X more people per capita dying like we are.

I guess we could go for herd immunity with 500-1000K dying (unless theories of herd immunity being a lot lower than originally thought are true, but even then it's still 100-200K or more) and then not have to worry about restrictions any more, but that's an incredibly steep price to pay, especially when they're able to still have a functioning society with everyone working, but with restrictions.

That cat might be out of the bag though.

For all the talk of testing and tracing, and SK has done a great job with it, maybe the predominant reason they were able to get it under control is they reacted far quicker then we did. They closed it down, were testing and were wearing masks before it was out of control.


SK has a little over 10K reported cases. Half the states in the US have more then that. NY has 30 x's that number, NYC was well infected before we ever made a move. And our #'s are likely well under reported.

 

[RU-05]

absolutely not, hopefully most americans stand up for their rights to not be sent to a camp to be quarantined.

There is the other side of that.

If you know you have Covid, and you go out in public, and thus endanger others, should that be more then just socially frowned upon?

What if someone in your household has it, and you go out in public?

What if you go out while knowing these things without a mask, someone catches it from you, and then multiple people in their family die. Is that manslaughter?

 

[e5fdny]

Are you not feeling confident that there will be a viable vaccine widely available within a year?

I meant the ability to delete the app needed for tracing or for other things.

 

[RU4Real]

I meant the ability to delete the app needed for tracing or for other things.

There's no app required for device-driven contact tracing.

 

[bac2therac]

There is the other side of that.

If you know you have Covid, and you go out in public, and thus endanger others, should that be more then just socially frowned upon?

What if someone in your household has it, and you go out in public?

What if you go out while knowing these things without a mask, someone catches it from you, and then multiple people in their family die. Is that manslaughter?

people should not be going out if they have it, are we going round up all the people who have not contracted it and tell them they have to say in a quarantine camp

do we charge manslaughter with the flu, should Cuomo be charged with policy in nursing homes

 

[RU-05]

people should not be going out if they have it, are we going round up all the people who have not contracted it and tell them they have to say in a quarantine camp

do we charge manslaughter with the flu, should Cuomo be charged with policy in nursing homes

The Cuomo question is a complete tangent that I will disregard.
As is rounding up the noninfected. These are both complete left fielders.

As per the point at hand, and how this changes our perspective of other contagious diseases like the flu, maybe it does. Continue the thought experiment, what if Covid was as deadly to all ages as it is to the elderly, and knowing you are sick you enter a crowded public space, you infect 100's of people and dozens of people die including a bunch of kids. How responsible are you at that point? Would you be any less responsible then someone intentionally releasing a disease from a lab?

 

[e5fdny]

There's no app required for device-driven contact tracing.

This just for those infected...for now:

“To engage in documentation, the Korean government developed a customized app for quarantined individuals and required them to report their health status on a regular basis, and, with aggregated location data, modeling efforts were also made to locate potential sources of community-acquired infections.”

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2765252

Obviously there is a lot of that out there now: EZPass, MetroCard, credit card/ ATM transactions, mobile ticket scanners and CCTV along with a bunch I missed that can figure out where you are already.

 

[RU4Real]

This just for those infected...for now:

“To engage in documentation, the Korean government developed a customized app for quarantined individuals and required them to report their health status on a regular basis, and, with aggregated location data, modeling efforts were also made to locate potential sources of community-acquired infections.”

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2765252

Obviously there is a lot of that out there now: EZPass, MetroCard, credit card/ ATM transactions, mobile ticket scanners and CCTV along with a bunch I missed that can figure out where you are already.

Don't need any of that stuff. Just need a smartphone.

 

[T2Kplus10]

should Cuomo be charged with policy in nursing homes

Yes, what Cuomo and Murphy did with nursing homes is truly criminal. Their policy killed lots and lots of people.

 

[e5fdny]

Don't need any of that stuff. Just need a smartphone.

“You must have a enabled smart phone to enter the premises or provide us with the information we deem necessary”

But agree a lot of the info is out there already. And we have already agreed to the compliance. Realized or not.

 

[Spare130]

I'm going to say no way on the bold.

Yeah lol. That's like saying that at a sold out game at the RAC, there's 16 or 17 fans in the building with more than 10 fingers or toes.