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COVID-19 Pandemic: Transmissions, Deaths, Treatments, Vaccines, Interventions and More...

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I read it wrong??

“All of the vaccinated monkeys treated with the Oxford vaccine became infected when challenged.”

What does that mean to you?

More on the Oxford Testing. Still has promise.
Asked whether results in macaques will likely translate to results in humans, he added: “No we don’t know for sure, that’s why trials need to be, and are being, done in humans.

“But it is encouraging to see these results and suggests cautious optimism for the Oxford vaccine trial being done in humans.”
 
You said this in the other thread about the non N95 surgical masks that you wear at work and then MrsScrew posted a pic of the box and the box said it filtered out 95%. Where as an n95 filtered 99.8 or something like that.

And then I posted a link to a manufacturer that said pretty much the same thing.

If you ask for evidence, we post the evidence you ask for, and then you ignore the evidence, why should we bother with this debate?



I don't know what you are getting at about lab conditions. Why lab conditions would show one thing but that doesn't translate to real world conditions. You will need to provide an better explanation why a mask would be effective in a lab but not in real world conditions. I wear a home made mask in real world conditions and I have no doubt it limits the travel of my breath and talking. It's painfully obvious all day long.

Now the limit of travel is different then the filtration, and maybe my mask does more of the former then the latter, but either result is a positive.

Edit: I'm just now realizing that your "show me scientific evidence" and "that works in a lab but not the real world" points are so contradictory.
You can't be that stupid! You don't understand the difference between lab conditions and real world?? You can not figure that out?? Think about it. It doesn't take much logical thought but you need logical thought to figure it out.
I have always agreed a mask limits the travel. Again you need to put some logical thought into why that may not matter. Not once have I said anything different.
The masks that were posted by Mrs are not what everyone uses. Hard to find. The best we have had was level 2. Most we get don't even have a level on the box. But it counts as a mask to accommodate the state's order.
 
You can't be that stupid! You don't understand the difference between lab conditions and real world?? You can not figure that out?? Think about it. It doesn't take much logical thought but you need logical thought to figure it out.
I have always agreed a mask limits the travel. Again you need to put some logical thought into why that may not matter. Not once have I said anything different.
The masks that were posted by Mrs are not what everyone uses. Hard to find. The best we have had was level 2. Most we get don't even have a level on the box. But it counts as a mask to accommodate the state's order.
Before you question my intelligence please explain the contradiction in your argument: ie "where is the scientific evidence?" vs "lab conditions are not real world conditions". You want both but except neither.

Like I said, I, like you, work in real world conditions, so I'm very confident in the effectiveness of the mask I wear.

Also, both MrsScrew and myself posted filtration efficiency of the mask you were wearing at work, it was 95%, if you are going to ignore that, what else am I supposed to do here?
 
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Before you question my intelligence please, explain the contradiction in your argument: ie "where is the scientific evidence" vs "lab conditions are not real world conditions".

Also like I said, I, like you, work in real world conditions, so I'm very confident in the effectiveness in the mask I wear.

More also: Both MrsScrew and myself post edfiltration efficiency of the mask you were wearing at work, if you are going to ignore that, what else am I supposed to do here?
I don't wear #2 all the time. We actually have been using masks without a level even on the box which I just posted, that you just replyed to so maybe not an intelligent issue but certainly a reading comprehension issue.
So if I have to explain it to you there was a video posted on this board, probably merged into this thread, of a scientific test in a lab to show how far a mask prevents a sneeze, a cough and regular breathing spreads. In none of them did it show filtration at all. Just distance. It was done in a lab with no fans or wind at all. Simply the mask just kept it very close to the body. Real world is people walking through my store 20 at a time through my department like it's a stampede. Security on the walkie actually gives us a heads up by declaring "stampede" so we have time to get out of the way. So people with masks walking fast are not keeping the virus close to their body's.
Wearing a mask outdoors is completely useless in the weather we've had in the last 45 days. People can be 10 feet apart but with the 10 to 20mph winds we had since early April nothing is staying close to anyone breathing. That is real world. I work in public everyday! Please don't question me about real world. I have had 4 days off since March 4th. In an 8 hour shift over 2000 people walk through my department every single day.
 
I don't wear #2 all the time. We actually have been using masks without a level even on the box which I just posted, that you just replyed to so maybe not an intelligent issue but certainly a reading comprehension issue.
So if I have to explain it to you there was a video posted on this board, probably merged into this thread, of a scientific test in a lab to show how far a mask prevents a sneeze, a cough and regular breathing spreads. In none of them did it show filtration at all. Just distance. It was done in a lab with no fans or wind at all. Simply the mask just kept it very close to the body. Real world is people walking through my store 20 at a time through my department like it's a stampede. Security on the walkie actually gives us a heads up by declaring "stampede" so we have time to get out of the way. So people with masks walking fast are not keeping the virus close to their body's.
Wearing a mask outdoors is completely useless in the weather we've had in the last 45 days. People can be 10 feet apart but with the 10 to 20mph winds we had since early April nothing is staying close to anyone breathing. That is real world. I work in public everyday! Please don't question me about real world. I have had 4 days off since March 4th. In an 8 hour shift over 2000 people walk through my department every single day.
Have you seen this?
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them
 
No I haven't. I also never heard of Erin Bromage. So what is your point?
He discusses where the exposure risks are greatest. Hopefully you work in a large space with large air volume. If it is a small tight space...not so good.

I would suspect that your greatest risk would be from employees who are there all day versus people who are in and out quickly. Avoid face-to-face interactions longer than a few minutes.

Also past studies have shown that if your workers (and customers) are wearing surgical masks that would be a great benefit to you. As surgical masks reduce sick people from transmitting.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2
 
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He discusses where the exposure risks are greatest. Hopefully you work in a large space with large air volume. I would suspect that your greatest risk would be from employees who are there all day versus people who are in and out quickly. Avoid face-to-face interactions longer than a few minutes.

Also past studies have shown that if your workers (and customers) are wearing surgical masks that would be a great benefit to you. As surgical masks reduce sick people from transmitting.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2
Customers wearing high quality masks. Yeah that's not happening.
At work we wear anything they can get to fulfill the state mandate of working with a mask. State mandate does not require a certain level of protection at all. N95 are not available in PA except for hospitals.
All employees are given a temp check before work. That I believe should be extended to customers but laws prevent that. As the Liquor Licensee I can refuse service to anyone I see fit without explanation. However that same person is allowed to stay in the store just not in the Liquor area by law. Everyday sick people enter the store. Every single day and there is nothing we can do about it.
 
Because you can tell the public to make their own mask but still have people stock piling PPE.

I was just having a debate a few days ago against those that said home made masks did nothing.

There have been homemade designs that have been shown to have levels of effectiveness approaching medical grade PPE.

I'd call these recent posts exhibit A, but two months in, they are likely much further down the alphabet.
 
Deaths fall to 98,a new low for late week reporting.New hospitalizations follow suit.

This virus is disappearing faster than did Epstein from New York State Records.
As is common, data trickles in throughout the day so the final # is 105.

But week over week Thursday totals, (which do look very representative for the rest of the week), see the last 4 weeks fall from 458, to 262, 219, to 105.

Is that faster then Epstein's disappearance? On that I am not sure.
 
Its to control us...convinced of that now. Without masks people would act as if life was normal....many of us feel we should get back to normal
Do you have a death wish or do you wish to sicken and perhaps kill others? I would imagine not, but that's what saying "let's go back to normal" means. Whether you like it or not, the science is pretty clear that anyone not wearing a mask in social situations (at distances less than the recommended 6 feet) is risking his life and the lives of others around him (if infected and asymptomatic).

Do you really think scientists are part of some plot to "control" society? That's just nutty talk like from flat earthers. To what end? You don't think everyone wants to get back to normal? We do, but many of us don't want to do so at the expense of killing up to 1MM more Americans and further damaging the economy, which is what will likely happen over 12-24 months if we "go back to normal" without there being a cure or vaccine. And that's why so many of us want to follow the intervention playbook to keep infection rates very low, while still mostly returning to normal, like S. Korea, Taiwan and others have done.
 
Do you have a death wish or do you wish to sicken and perhaps kill others? I would imagine not, but that's what saying "let's go back to normal" means. Whether you like it or not, the science is pretty clear that anyone not wearing a mask in social situations (at distances less than the recommended 6 feet) is risking his life and the lives of others around him (if infected and asymptomatic).

Do you really think scientists are part of some plot to "control" society? That's just nutty talk like from flat earthers. To what end? You don't think everyone wants to get back to normal? We do, but many of us don't want to do so at the expense of killing up to 1MM more Americans and further damaging the economy, which is what will likely happen over 12-24 months if we "go back to normal" without there being a cure or vaccine. And that's why so many of us want to follow the intervention playbook to keep infection rates very low, while still mostly returning to normal, like S. Korea, Taiwan and others have done.
So you agree with restrictions continuing even though we have met the standards for restrictions as first mandated to go on for ever?
 
Customers wearing high quality masks. Yeah that's not happening.
At work we wear anything they can get to fulfill the state mandate of working with a mask. State mandate does not require a certain level of protection at all. N95 are not available in PA except for hospitals.
All employees are given a temp check before work. That I believe should be extended to customers but laws prevent that. As the Liquor Licensee I can refuse service to anyone I see fit without explanation. However that same person is allowed to stay in the store just not in the Liquor area by law. Everyday sick people enter the store. Every single day and there is nothing we can do about it.
Sorry to hear this. I wish I could do something. Hurts me to think of this everyday. Not that it means much but my thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep safe and stay well.
 
Sorry to hear this. I wish I could do something. Hurts me to think of this everyday. Not that it means much but my thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep safe and stay well.
Appreciate it. But I feel for front line medical people. They wear all the protection gear and are getting sick at an incredible rate. Like myself they work many days in a row but they see so many infected people. We are essential people so we don't have the opportunity to stay at home. If we do we stay at home we are not eligible for unemployment. Stay home no pay.
 
Yes, even surgical/cloth masks will keep in a large part of the sneeze/cough virus-laden droplets (there are videos out there on this) and will also reduce the velocity/spread distance of what gets through the mask. Keeping some or most of the virus in is the most important mask function. The masks can also prevent medium to large virus-laden droplets from reaching a recipient, but likely will do little for any very small aerosolized droplets containing virus particles.

Elegant, but simple experiment on this in the article below, with hamsters, showing up to 75% reduction in transmission. And many other papers out there demonstrating mask effectiveness. Also, note that even a ~50% reduction in transmission is huge, since social distancing will get another ~50% reduction, such that infection rates can drop just from those two practices. Throw in testing/tracing/isolating to prevent flareups (which are inevitable) from becoming outbreaks and we have South Korea with 1/100th the death rate of the worst countries (and 1/200th the death rate of NY/NJ) and a nearly fully functioning economy. It's not a coincidence that almost all of the countries doing best are mask-wearing countries, largely in Asia, but not completely.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...onavirus-hamster-research-proof-effectiveness

Also, in answer to your other comment, the CDC did not say there was zero risk from surfaces - there's actually no new data on surface transmission - all they did was more formally put surface transmission in with other low risks under a section titled, "the virus does not spread easily in other ways." It certainly implies surfaces are less of a risk, but all it really does is show that this risk is non-zero, but far less than the risk from other people. They could've explained that better, though.

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/t...ocial-distancing.191275/page-121#post-4569570

People have asked about filtration effectiveness of various homemade and purchased masks for removing the ~0.1 micron virus particles; see the graphic below for measurements made with a 0.02 micron bacteria that is about 1/5 the size of the coronavirus in a 2013 paper that was looking at various masks in anticipation of the next flu pandemic (influenza virus is similar size to coronavirus).

The take home message is that, worn properly, surgical masks are quite effective (~90%) and effectiveness goes down with some of the homemade masks, but are all still >50%. Mask wearing of homemade masks, combined with social distancing is even better and can greatly reduce transmission rates as per previous posts.

Also, keep in mind that these filtration efficiencies are for aerosolized bacteria being coughed/breathed out by volunteers and not "true" virus-laden droplets in a cough (or sneeze - can't have people sneeze on command, though, so that wasn't tested), which would generally be significantly larger and more likely to be retained by the mask, i.e, the numbers in the table are likely worst case - for properly worn masks (poorly worn masks are not much good, as per the paper).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Y62EkeFogLCUGD6T2p2UDKampUafTtBRYQPBKfx4Uw9IU

4eS50Li.png
 
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Appreciate it. But I feel for front line medical people. They wear all the protection gear and are getting sick at an incredible rate. Like myself they work many days in a row but they see so many infected people. We are essential people so we don't have the opportunity to stay at home. If we do we stay at home we are not eligible for unemployment. Stay home no pay.

Actually, in NY, health care workers were less likely to be infected than the general population, as per antibody test results, meaning taking mask and handwashing precautions (and social distancing where practical) were actually pretty effective. Specifically, in New York City, 20% of the general public had antibodies, compared to about 12% of healthcare workers. So while you may be skeptical of masks, handwashing and social distancing, they work, so please keep up with all of them, as I still want to be able to meet up with you some day and talk about punk rock, beer, and Rutgers football. And thanks for taking the risks for so many of us in the service industry.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisett...9-compared-to-public-cuomo-says/#4f0ce01b6619
 
People have asked about filtration effectiveness of various homemade and purchased masks for removing the ~0.1 micron virus particles; see the graphic below for measurements made with a 0.02 micron bacteria that is about 1/5 the size of the coronavirus in a 2013 paper that was looking at various masks in anticipation of the next flu pandemic (influenza virus is similar size to coronavirus).

The take home message is that, worn properly, surgical masks are quite effective (~90%) and effectiveness goes down with some of the homemade masks, but are all still >50%. Mask wearing of homemade masks, combined with social distancing is even better and can greatly reduce transmission rates as per previous posts.

Also, keep in mind that these filtration efficiencies are for aerosolized bacteria being coughed/breathed out by volunteers and not "true" virus-laden droplets in a cough (or sneeze - can't have people sneeze on command, though, so that wasn't tested), which would generally be significantly larger and more likely to be retained by the mask, i.e, the numbers in the table are likely worst case - for properly worn masks (poorly worn masks are not much good, as per the paper).

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/daviesfacemask2013%20(1).pdf

4eS50Li.png
You fail to mention that the percentage is not a simple equation. 10% percent more/less does not does not equate to the same % of infection rate.
 
Article on Sweden’s herd immunity path.

Snippets from the article:

(CNN)Sweden has revealed that despite adopting more relaxed measures to control coronavirus, only 7.3% of people in Stockholm had developed the antibodies needed to fight the disease by late April.

The figure, which Sweden's Public Health Authority confirmed to CNN, is roughly similar to other countries that have data and well below the 70-90% needed to create "herd immunity" in a population.

Sweden's percentage of people with antibodies is not far off that of other countries that did enforce lockdowns. In Spain, 5% of people had developed coronavirus antibodies by May 14, according to preliminary results of an epidemiological study by the government.

Michael Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, estimated earlier this month on CNN Tonight with Don Lemon that between 5% and 15% of people in the US have been infected.

He said the coronavirus was going to circulate and infect at least 60% to 70% of the population before it slows down, but warned that the country had "a long ways to go" to get to a level of herd immunity. A report he wrote along with other epidemiologists and a historian estimated this would likely take 18 to 24 months.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/health/sweden-herd-immunity-coronavirus-intl/index.html

So if Sweden's infection rate is the same as other countries that were in lockdown, lockdowns dont seem to be working. Now Sweeden has been pushing maintaing distance and other measures.
 
Actually, in NY, health care workers were less likely to be infected than the general population, as per antibody test results, meaning taking mask and handwashing precautions (and social distancing where practical) were actually pretty effective. Specifically, in New York City, 20% of the general public had antibodies, compared to about 12% of healthcare workers. So while you may be skeptical of masks, handwashing and social distancing, they work, so please keep up with all of them, as I still want to be able to meet up with you some day and talk about punk rock, beer, and Rutgers football. And thanks for taking the risks for so many of us in the service industry.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisett...9-compared-to-public-cuomo-says/#4f0ce01b6619
Sorry but front line worker are closer to 20% worldwide. What ever % you agree on its well above the general population. And antibodies is not the issue. It's infected and symptoms. They are way above the average.
Agree listening punk rock will be the sign it's over
 
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You fail to mention that the percentage is not a simple equation. 10% percent more/less does not does not equate to the same % of infection rate.
Of course not - thought that was obvious. But clearly, the more virus particles that can be kept inside the mask, the less that are out in the air to infect others and similarly, the more one can remove from breathing in, via the mask, the lower the chance of infection. There's no way to quantify exactly what those translate to, because that would require controlled exposure studies with humans and the virus - that's why possibly the most important piece of data I posted today on masks was the hamster study, showing 75% reduction in actual infection rates by use of "masks."
 
Sorry but front line worker are closer to 20% worldwide. What ever % you agree on its well above the general population. And antibodies is not the issue. It's infected and symptoms. They are way above the average.
Agree listening punk rock will be the sign it's over

That's because front line workers, on average, are nowhere near as good at using masks properly and practicing social distancing and handwashing as health care workers (who train for this all the time in infection control). The combination of greater exposure to infected people and lack of training/experience in use of masks (and handwashing/social distancing) is why they're infected at greater rates than the general public, but my point was doing those things properly, as per health care workers, makes a significant difference in infection rates. Also, antibodies are the best measure we have right now of infection rates, population-wise.
 
So you agree with restrictions continuing even though we have met the standards for restrictions as first mandated to go on for ever?

Why would you ask that? I'm in favor of following the SK "playbook" which we wrote, but ignored, as I've said at least 100 times: aggressive testing, tracing, isolating to prevent/stamp out flare ups (which requires an investment in those technologies), combined with mask-wearing and social distancing to keep transmission rates as low as possible.

If done well, this results in very low transmission rates and a near normal society with phased reopenings of most businesses/schools, although it's not clear when the very high risk high population public events can be held again (sporting events, concerts, rallies, etc.) - my guess is not until we have instant or at least day-of-event highly sensitive (so no false negatives, unlike the ~20% false negative rates for the current PCR virus tests) virus tests, which we don't have now.
 
Customers wearing high quality masks. Yeah that's not happening.
At work we wear anything they can get to fulfill the state mandate of working with a mask. State mandate does not require a certain level of protection at all. N95 are not available in PA except for hospitals.
All employees are given a temp check before work. That I believe should be extended to customers but laws prevent that. As the Liquor Licensee I can refuse service to anyone I see fit without explanation. However that same person is allowed to stay in the store just not in the Liquor area by law. Everyday sick people enter the store. Every single day and there is nothing we can do about it.
It's truly sad that people don't care enough about their friends, neighbors and just people they come in contact with to practice mask-wearing and social distancing. A large part of it is horrible messaging from the POTUS, sadly. The guy won't wear a friggin' mask anywhere.
 
It's truly sad that people don't care enough about their friends, neighbors and just people they come in contact with to practice mask-wearing and social distancing. A large part of it is horrible messaging from the POTUS, sadly. The guy won't wear a friggin' mask anywhere.
As you probably know without baseball I've been listening to full records of old punk music. Bands like Talking Heads have a great portfolio of songs. David Byrnes Life During Wartime kind of fits what many are living right now. Especially for me as I ain't got time for that now. Working so much. But I do have peanut butter and records to play

This ain't no party, this ain't no disco,
This ain't no fooling around
No time for dancing, or lovey dovey,
I ain't got time for that now

got some groceries, some peanut butter,
To last a couple of days
But I ain't got no speakers, ain't got no headphones,
Ain't got no records to play
 
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Numbers, interested in your thoughts on the Oxford vaccine that we just through $1B at.

Mixed. Lots to like, but some red flags in that the vaccinated animals were still infected and might be infectious, although they were at least healthy compared to the controls. But we need both protection and no ability to infect others in a vaccine. However, many experts are saying the strong virus challenge and the single vaccine dose were likely also at play (many vaccines require 2 doses). Would be nice to see macaque data with 2 doses of the vaccine, just to see if that theory is correct.

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/t...ocial-distancing.191275/page-118#post-4565023
 
So if Sweden's infection rate is the same as other countries that were in lockdown, lockdowns dont seem to be working. Now Sweeden has been pushing maintaing distance and other measures.
that's not accurate. Sweeden's infection rate is much higher than their neighbors. Sweden is not a good comparison to Italy, UK, France, or Spain, because the population density is far less in Sweden, there is far less foreign travel to Sweden, Sweden had a heads up before they were overwhelmed because the outbreaks started in those other countries first because of their being much more travel to those places, and 50 percent of people live alone in Sweden, while generations of people live together (grandparents, parents, and kids) often in Italy, Spain, and France. Denmark. Norway, and Finland all have a much lower rate than Sweden.
 
Many times,Murphy has claimed that "physical health leads to financial health" as a justification for shutting down "non-essential" businesses.So why won't he give us a breakdown of the percentage of full time tax paying workers who have been either hospitalized or killed by Covid-19?

I suspect that the percentage is very low compared to the numbers of people who are retired,living in nursing homes,those on public assistance,illegals on construction gangs,etc.If so,that disproves his contention.
 
The Sweden Experiment with Limited Social Distancing...

It's certainly not "over" yet, but they're doing far worse than their similarly situated, similarly low population density Nordic neighbors, Norway and Finland, especially in deaths, which is what really matters; these neighbors are also doing much more testing per capita (and tracing) and practicing much more aggressive social distancing. Cases per 1MM are less different, likely because of far less testing. I threw Denmark, Iceland and Germany in, too, even though their densities are a bit different. And Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, which are just a bit above Sweden in density are also doing much better than Sweden, with all of them below 40 deaths/1MM.

Sure Sweden is doing better than some of the much more densely populated countries, but on a density basis they're pretty much a very bad outlier. Ireland, though has about 3X the density as Sweden and has similar deaths/1MM and Spain at 4-5X the density of Sweden has 2X the death rate per 1MM as Sweden. Germany is an outlier in the other direction with 10X the density of Sweden (and is more dense than all the major EU countries other than the UK), but has a death rate of only 79/1MM - they've been the model country with regard to early/aggressive testing, tracing/isolating and social distancing (along with Denmark).

Country......Cases/1MM.......Deaths/1MM........Tests/1MM.....Density (per sq mi)
Sweden..........2088......................256.....................11K.....................56
Finland.............902.......................38.......................17K....................43
Norway............1427......................39.......................31K....................41
Iceland............5266......................29......................141K.....................8
Denmark.........1580......................78.......................33K...................345
Germany.........1945......................79.......................30K...................576

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52395866

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

...and What It Might Mean for Sweden and the US (and more)

Some from Sweden also recently said they thought they'd be at "herd immunity" in several weeks. My guess is that's a pipe dream. Sweden has 1800 positive viral cases per 1MM, which is 0.18%, while NY has 15K cases per 1MM, which is 1.5% viral cases and NY's antibody sampling shows 15% actually with antibodies right now (were infected) or about 10X the level of cases. If Sweden had a similar ratio, they'd have 1.8% of their population with antibodies (10X 0.18%), which is almost nothing compared to herd immunity estimates of 54% if the transmission rate, R0, is 2.2 (as thought awhile back) or 82% if R0 is 5.7 (as more are thinking now).

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/04/22...immunity-in-weeks.html?recirc=taboolainternal

However, they're saying Stockholm has 11% with antibodies, although Stockholm is far more densely populated than the rest of the country, as the country, overall has 64 people per sq mi, (near last in Europe) vs. Stockholm's 13,000 per sq mi (200X more densely populated) - so maybe it's possible for both to be true, ie.., 11% antibodies in Stockholm (which has 22% of Sweden's population) and 1.8% of Sweden with antibodies, overall (11/1.8 = 6 and 100/22 = 4.5).

So, if Sweden, right now is only at 1.8% of the population infected with antibodies, they have a very long way to go to reach herd immunity, which looks to be 20-30X their current infection%, meaning that's theoretically 20-30X more hospitalized/dead than they have now, assuming no interventions or great treatments/cures before then. That's a worst case, as infections would slow down as an area nears herd immunity, plus very low density locations might simply not sustain infections through the population - which could also be true for swaths of middle America, although those hotspots in meatpacking plants and small town flare-ups should be scaring the crap out of Middle America, but they don't seem to be.

Same is possible in the US if we're not smart about how we reopen and are not ready to stamp out flareups as they occur (with aggressive testing/tracing/isolating). We might be at ~3% of the US that have been infected, I'd guess, just roughly based on comparison to NY's data, where 15% have antibodies and 1.5% have tested positive for the virus (10X ratio), so that the US with 0.3% tested positive for the virus (1MM of 330MM) would then be 3.0% with antibodies (10X).

So, if the US, right now is only at 3% of the population infected with antibodies, we also have a very long way to go to reach herd immunity, which looks to be 15-25X their current infection%, meaning that's theoretically 15-25X more hospitalized/dead than we have now, assuming no interventions or great treatments/cures before then. Infections should slow down quite a bit once above 30-40% infected (less targets and less infected), so I doubt we're talking truly 15-25X more hospitalized dead, but I think 10-15X more is definitely a risk. That's 10-15X the 60K deaths we've seen - over whatever time it would take to reach herd immunity if we're not practicing any interventions (probably 6+ months).

We better hope we get a spring/summer lull, like we do with the flu to give us more time to develop treatments/cures/vaccines by fall and to improve our infrastructure for massive testing/tracing and isolating, just in case the next wave is strong. If there's no seasonal lull, we're likely in for a very bad time in this country if we reopen too aggressively and without a good testing/tracing infrastructure in place. Our other hope is that maybe, somehow, our antibody tests are off and many more have been infected than we know (or are somehow immune) - but hope isn't a strategy.

That article is filled with misinformation, especially the claim at the end that Sweden would likely reach herd immunity within a month. That's simply a fantasy, given that the only data on prevalence from a few weeks ago is that Stockholm had ~11% infected, based on blood donor antibody testing. And the reports that 1/3 had been infected were retracted, as per the article below.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...ontroversial-coronavirus-report/#2cf14ff74349

Realistically, given that Stockholm is much more densely populated than the rest of Sweden, it's likely that the overall infection rate is around 2-4%, so they have a long, long way to go to reach herd immunity (50-80% depending on the true transmission rate, which is still somewhat uncertain). Also, with regard to cases and deaths per capita, Sweden is doing horribly worse than its similarly situated neighbors (who have similar overall density), as per my post from a few weeks ago, below, and it's even gotten worse since then with Sweden now having 7-9X the per capita death rates as Norway and Finland. And at 361 deaths/1MM, they're not far behind the worst cases of Italy-Spain-UK-France, which have in the 420-580 range.

that's not accurate. Sweeden's infection rate is much higher than their neighbors. Sweden is not a good comparison to Italy, UK, France, or Spain, because the population density is far less in Sweden, there is far less foreign travel to Sweden, Sweden had a heads up before they were overwhelmed because the outbreaks started in those other countries first because of their being much more travel to those places, and 50 percent of people live alone in Sweden, while generations of people live together (grandparents, parents, and kids) often in Italy, Spain, and France. Denmark. Norway, and Finland all have a much lower rate than Sweden.

Good post - a lot more info in the two quoted posts from above, showing how Sweden is in far worse shape than its similarly situated Nordic neighbors, Finland and Norway (all three have similar densities) with regard to deaths per capita, especially - they're much closer to the really bad Euro countries like Italy/Spain, despite being a fair amount less densely populated. Also, those claims about them having 1/3 infected and reaching herd immunity in a month or two have been discredited and retracted. as per my 2nd post above. Sweden is not who we want to emulate.
 
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Good post - a lot more info in the two quoted posts from above, showing how Sweden is in far worse shape than its similarly situated Nordic neighbors, Finland and Norway (all three have similar densities) with regard to deaths per capita, especially - they're much closer to the really bad Euro countries like Italy/Spain, despite being a fair amount less densely populated. Also, those claims about them having 1/3 infected and reaching herd immunity in a month or two have been discredited and retracted. as per my 2nd post above. Sweden is not who we want to emulate.

While sweden is not doing well, one thing to note is that Sweden has many more intenational travelers than Norway and Finland and there could have been more seeding of the virus
 
More about that nightclub cluster in SK. 95 from the original cluster and then 120 offshoots to those 95. Even with good testing and contact tracing you can see how quickly numbers can grow and without it well you know. Also read they closed some schools two hours after opening after they found cases among the students.

From CNN:

At least 215 cases of Covid-19 in South korea have now been linked to the nightclub cluster in Seoul's entertainment district of Itaewon.

The first cases began emerging in the area around May 9, and authorities sprang into action, gathering credit card records and cell phone data to track down who might have been in the area during that time.

More than 77,000 people have been found and tested, authorities said today.

Of the 215 confirmed cases, 95 patientscontracted the virus from visiting nightclubs patronized by an infected person, said Jung Eun-kyeong, director of the South Korean Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC).

The other 120 infections were traced to members of the original nightclub cluster.

South Korea has recorded a total of 11,142 cases and 264 deaths, according to the KCDC.
 
CDC estimates about 35% of COVID infections don’t have symptoms and about .4% of those who do will die and about 40% of transmission is before people feel sick. Numbers are subject to change but that’s based on models with data up to April 29. One expert from University of Washington pushed back on the numbers saying too optimistic...more details of his reasoning in the article.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/health/cdc-coronavirus-estimates-symptoms-deaths/index.html
 
Do you have a death wish or do you wish to sicken and perhaps kill others? I would imagine not, but that's what saying "let's go back to normal" means. Whether you like it or not, the science is pretty clear that anyone not wearing a mask in social situations (at distances less than the recommended 6 feet) is risking his life and the lives of others around him (if infected and asymptomatic).

Do you really think scientists are part of some plot to "control" society? That's just nutty talk like from flat earthers. To what end? You don't think everyone wants to get back to normal? We do, but many of us don't want to do so at the expense of killing up to 1MM more Americans and further damaging the economy, which is what will likely happen over 12-24 months if we "go back to normal" without there being a cure or vaccine. And that's why so many of us want to follow the intervention playbook to keep infection rates very low, while still mostly returning to normal, like S. Korea, Taiwan and others have done.

yeah the same people who were telling us not to wear mask through the first month of this

When you F up messaging like this then expect there will be large numbers of people not having belief or trust in these people
 
Do you have a death wish or do you wish to sicken and perhaps kill others? I would imagine not, but that's what saying "let's go back to normal" means. Whether you like it or not, the science is pretty clear that anyone not wearing a mask in social situations (at distances less than the recommended 6 feet) is risking his life and the lives of others around him (if infected and asymptomatic).

Do you really think scientists are part of some plot to "control" society? That's just nutty talk like from flat earthers. To what end? You don't think everyone wants to get back to normal? We do, but many of us don't want to do so at the expense of killing up to 1MM more Americans and further damaging the economy, which is what will likely happen over 12-24 months if we "go back to normal" without there being a cure or vaccine. And that's why so many of us want to follow the intervention playbook to keep infection rates very low, while still mostly returning to normal, like S. Korea, Taiwan and others have done.


The lunacy of these posters in beyond pathetic. To even question the need to wear masks is ignorant and self-centered.
 
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Recent preprint (not peer reviewed) analyzing genomes and worldwide evolution of the virus, reaching the conclusion that, "there is no evidence at this stage for the emergence of more transmissible lineages of SARS-CoV-2 due to recurrent mutations." There's been a lot speculation that the "European" version that largely seeded the NE US outbreak was more transmissible. Only skimmed it, but thought it was worth sharing.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.21.108506v1.full.pdf
 
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