Nah - we knew Temple wasn’t going to be great, for example. Look - I understand why Pike didn’t agreed to Gonzaga’s terms from a principle perspective, but we’d have been way better off playing that game in Seattle. At some point, if Pike wants to keep the automatic cupcakes (which isn’t a bad idea - I think the Lafayette loss and Lehigh OT was an exception rather than a rule. Pike isn’t going to run with two bad defenders like Hyatt and Jaden for key stretches ever again even if his other options have the Yips like Caleb did. Lesson learned) - he’ll need to compensate by making those other 4 games as tough as possible. We seem to lose a high percentage of them anyway.
Holiday tourneys
- Thread starter RU72
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Nah - we knew Temple wasn’t going to be great, for example. Look - I understand why Pike didn’t agreed to Gonzaga’s terms from a principle perspective, but we’d have been way better off playing that game in Seattle. At some point, if Pike wants to keep the automatic cupcakes (which isn’t a bad idea - I think the Lafayette loss and Lehigh OT was an exception rather than a rule. Pike isn’t going to run with two bad defenders like Hyatt and Jaden for key stretches ever again even if his other options have the Yips like Caleb did. Lesson learned) - he’ll need to compensate by making those other 4 games as tough as possible. We seem to lose a high percentage of them anyway.
Committee only cares about your ooc schedule when you are close to the cut line. If we beat Temple and Minnesota, it would have been moot.
We often look and play terrible early on
Compare how we played Temple versus the Michigan state MSG game
At least this is how I see it
It takes several games to fortify the defense, the offense can always struggle
An early tourney could easily be several losses imo
Non-Conf SOS (per Warren Nolan's site)
Selected as an at-large:
246 - NC State
248 - Texas A&M
278 - PSU
289 - Providence
292 - TCU
295 - Northwestern
310 - Kansas State
Not selected as an at-large (appearing in at least 5 brackets on bracket matrix)
18 - UNC
109 - Vanderbilt
178 - North Texas
193 - Okla St
314 - Rutgers
333 - Clemson
Pretty clear that the resumes of TCU (22-13), Northwestern (22-12), and Kansas State (26-10) weren't held back by NC SOS of 290+.... but UNC (20-13) and Vandy (22-15) were left out with NC SOS in the top third of all Div-I teams (UNC in the Top 20).
NC SOS is used as a tie breaker at best to determine the last four in/first four out, and even then you had UNC and Rutgers both in the first four out this year with entirely opposite NC SOS's.
Selected as an at-large:
246 - NC State
248 - Texas A&M
278 - PSU
289 - Providence
292 - TCU
295 - Northwestern
310 - Kansas State
Not selected as an at-large (appearing in at least 5 brackets on bracket matrix)
18 - UNC
109 - Vanderbilt
178 - North Texas
193 - Okla St
314 - Rutgers
333 - Clemson
Pretty clear that the resumes of TCU (22-13), Northwestern (22-12), and Kansas State (26-10) weren't held back by NC SOS of 290+.... but UNC (20-13) and Vandy (22-15) were left out with NC SOS in the top third of all Div-I teams (UNC in the Top 20).
NC SOS is used as a tie breaker at best to determine the last four in/first four out, and even then you had UNC and Rutgers both in the first four out this year with entirely opposite NC SOS's.
Nope
Committee cares about your OOC because you control it and it speaks to your program
It is a stand alone factor
Everyone in that loop agrees
We know Princeton isn't happening
We know a holiday event is not happening
We know that the Jimmy V has minimal interest in Rutgers at this juncture
At least play one rigorous MSG game and make the MTE a real test
The Kentucky MTE in November have an improved St Joe's and a Yale team which will be Top 60 NET
How does LIU assist anyone including the fans?
Rutgers is a perennial NCAA contender now and Top 50 NET program
NC SOS didn't keep Kansas State out of the tournament. It didn't keep TCU or Northwestern out, either, or even put them in Dayton. If we finish this year with 22 wins and just 1 Q3 loss, we wouldn't even be talking about it.
Correct. We needed to beat a good OOC team. Adding more games doesn’t matter if you don’t win them. You get more chances if you add more quality OOC teams but you also may have a worse record.
non conference sos is a criteria...dont know why people have an argument. Those 3 teams were so high in all the other criteria nowhere near the bubble.
RU was checking multiple red flag catagories
the argument that RU would be in if they won more games...duh...sure
I do not get people continue to resist the idea that non conference sos matters alot....it also matters with seeding as well....but go ahead continue to defend a shit schedule that is plus 300 every year.
RU72 knows his stuff. I have done bracketology for years and can tell you it matters and can hurt seeding
I guess our board is satisified with barely making it in or not by the seat of our pants every year
That’s why you keep the count of losable games at 4 or no more than 5. We’re stuck playing the Wake game now, but going forward if this is our strategy the 3 real opponents we play should be best possible. Yes, even if that means we have to go to Seattle to play Gonzaga. I think we can do better than having to play a pseudo road game that counts as neutral in the NET though, but we have to be smarter than neutral games vs St Bonnie’s, UMass and Temple.
This I would completely agree with.
Going forward, unless you’re in a pre-season or holiday tournament, none of those three should be away games.
The Gonzaga idea, while not a fan, is better…if you’re worried about losing any of the three mentioned.
Like I said, it only really matters if you end up close to the cut line. Had we won Temple, Minnesota, and SHU, we'd have been like an 8 seed at 21-12 and no one would have cared about our NC SOS. It only matters if you end up as a borderline case - at which point, all kinds of things can be used to keep you out of the tournament, NC SOS being just one of them. It's certainly a factor - but it becomes moot if you win your Q3/Q4 games.
I'm very much of the mind that we should try to have zero high-Q3 games on the schedule - nothing that could fall into that 76-150 bucket. Instead of 90 Wake, 119 UMass-Lowell, and 126 Temple, I'd rather we have 27 UVA, 191 Drexel, and 199 St. Bonaventure. We should shoot for two Q1 NC opponents, 1-2 Q2 opponents, and 6-7 ranked below 190.
Kansas St got a 3 seed (Top 12 teams) with a 310 NET NC SOS and no ranking above 24 (NET, Kenpom, BPI, Sag). Didn't seem to impact them very much - because they had a clean sheet in Q3/Q4. Doesn't matter who you play down there, you just have to beat them.
You want to keep it out of the committee hands and limit red flags
It wasnt so much tge clean sheet..check out who they beat
Why the resistance to do better...don't get that
Their four best OOC wins were 26 Kentucky, 37 Nevada, 62 Florida, and 92 Nebraska. Hardly a murderer's row.
There's not a resistance to do better - but NC SOS is a small factor in the greater scheme of things. It is really only a selection factor for a handful of borderline teams each year - it's not keeping you out of the tournament if you are above the bubble line (Northwestern), and it's not getting you in if you're below the cutoff for other reasons (UNC). It only comes into play when you've played yourself into the danger zone of the last four in/first four out range, and the committee is looking for reasons to include/exclude a given team or teams.
UNC had a phenomenal NS SOS.... and they missed the tournament. Oregon's NC SOS was also really strong - but landed them in the NIT.
While I think would ultimately be to our benefit to strip out the high-Q3 teams from the schedule (all risk, no reward) I think the focus on NC SOS is overblown. I also disagree with the OP that the addition of Princeton would do anything at all to move that needle.
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The other thing Pike needs to consider as we bring much higher quality players in is that they have little interest playing cupcakes, they want to be on national tv going up against other top schools.
They want you to have at least something ooc...beating Kentucky is a big deal, they were expected to be better
Rutgers has had zero fo years
Ksu also has a ridiculous win at Kansas. Ru one at Purdue and still was about a hundred rungs behind KSu
Its impossible you are using Kan St as an example
Unc missed the tournament because they beat no one...q1 tecord..had they reached the acc finals they were easily damc8ng
Oregon took on a ton of losses and didnt have alot of wins
KSU had a great season, but their NCSOS was not really part of it. It. They made their bones in conference. And that's fine. Teams in elite conferences shouldn't have to schedule elite teams out of conference to have a strong SOS. That's my point, if your resume is strong, NCSOS is not part of anyone's consideration.
If we had as many top tier wins in conference as KSU, no one would care what our NCSOS was, and it would be ridiculous to even bring up in conversation. Doesn't impact selection, or seating, or anything else. It only becomes part of the conversation when trying to split hairs between programs.
I agree with your comment above about keeping it out of the committee's hands. But that applies to pretty much every part of your resume, including not melting down against Minnesota.. The important thing is to maximize reward and minimize risk. NCSOS is a needle to be threaded, not something you want to just keep bumping up to improve a single number on the team sheet that only comes into play for a small fraction of teams each year.
I know. NCSOS had nothing to do with their inclusion or exclusion. That's what I'm saying. It is a small factor when you look at other things. A tiebreaker between teams at best.
Exactly - we need to start acting like we expect to make the NCAA tournament every year, not like we hope to sneak in.
This is not about the OOC, it is about a sticking point that a legion of fans consistently complain about.
The same fans asking for an upgrade in schedule are talking out of both sides of their butts....they complain about the lack of recruiting, the recruiting misses and lack of front line talent BUT, they want to act as if RU has UConn, UCLA, Kansas State talent from last year.
We had a shoe-string level of talent, no true team speed or athletes, a bench that consisted of Dean Reiber, Oskar Palmquist, Antonio Chol (late addition, injured) Jalen Miller and Aiden Terry as FIVE of the 13 kids on scholarship.
With 8 players of relative ability, we think RU was going to improve its resume by having depth to outscore teams like Seton Hall, Michigan, Northwestern??? These are teams we lost to at home. And these 7-8 players were going to play and win 2 out of 3 games in 3 days??
Let's set up the schedule with last year's roster in November and play 3 games in 3 days with Mulcahy banged up, Caleb off knee surgery and we had no idea how good Mag could have been in November of last year. Would RU has won 2 of those games in Charleston or Atlantis or Cancun, whatever venue you pick, if you don't have 10 to 11 legitimate, front line players, good luck.
Here's my compromise....so you don't blow your chance of not making the NCAAS by December 1st....
Land Papa Kante.....
Land a real PG not named Paul Mulcahy from the portal, who can get the ball in transition, knock down some 3s and get some easy baskets.
Find me a guarantee that Mawot Mag is the Bionic Man, and will be 100% ready to go by mid-October.
Tell me we get Mulcahy back AND he's playing off the ball and Fernandes or someone much better than Mulcahy and Simpson, is running the point.
If I have an 11 player roster where JaMicheal Davis the 12th best player on the roster and is Antonio Chol is 13th and battling to get minutes, and I'll play anyone, anywhere.
Pike isn't stupid folks, this past years roster was not good enough to win 21+ games and put teams away, with scoring, transition baskets and enough depth......
Once the talent is upgraded, then we can bump up the scheduling. As of right now, mid April 2023, it's not a lock that RU is a NCAA team for 2023-24. If the upgrades on the roster happen, it won't matter what the OOC is like.
The same fans asking for an upgrade in schedule are talking out of both sides of their butts....they complain about the lack of recruiting, the recruiting misses and lack of front line talent BUT, they want to act as if RU has UConn, UCLA, Kansas State talent from last year.
We had a shoe-string level of talent, no true team speed or athletes, a bench that consisted of Dean Reiber, Oskar Palmquist, Antonio Chol (late addition, injured) Jalen Miller and Aiden Terry as FIVE of the 13 kids on scholarship.
With 8 players of relative ability, we think RU was going to improve its resume by having depth to outscore teams like Seton Hall, Michigan, Northwestern??? These are teams we lost to at home. And these 7-8 players were going to play and win 2 out of 3 games in 3 days??
Let's set up the schedule with last year's roster in November and play 3 games in 3 days with Mulcahy banged up, Caleb off knee surgery and we had no idea how good Mag could have been in November of last year. Would RU has won 2 of those games in Charleston or Atlantis or Cancun, whatever venue you pick, if you don't have 10 to 11 legitimate, front line players, good luck.
Here's my compromise....so you don't blow your chance of not making the NCAAS by December 1st....
Land Papa Kante.....
Land a real PG not named Paul Mulcahy from the portal, who can get the ball in transition, knock down some 3s and get some easy baskets.
Find me a guarantee that Mawot Mag is the Bionic Man, and will be 100% ready to go by mid-October.
Tell me we get Mulcahy back AND he's playing off the ball and Fernandes or someone much better than Mulcahy and Simpson, is running the point.
If I have an 11 player roster where JaMicheal Davis the 12th best player on the roster and is Antonio Chol is 13th and battling to get minutes, and I'll play anyone, anywhere.
Pike isn't stupid folks, this past years roster was not good enough to win 21+ games and put teams away, with scoring, transition baskets and enough depth......
Once the talent is upgraded, then we can bump up the scheduling. As of right now, mid April 2023, it's not a lock that RU is a NCAA team for 2023-24. If the upgrades on the roster happen, it won't matter what the OOC is like.
Agree with this.
We can upgrade our schedule without these OOC tournaments that can easily torpedo your season if you don’t have depth.
The other thing about these tournaments is they usually take place around late November which is right before the team plays two B1G games. And with the way the B1G treats us, you know we’ll be given the short end of the stick with those two conference games.
I realize by answering this it immediately opens up … well that’s not “legendary” to me. Legendary is subjective. Got it.
Off the top of my head… in chronological order:
-99/00 Kent called a late timeout when we didn’t have one. Ugggg. OT game we shoulda coulda won but didn’t.
-2017 Outscored #15 shu 17-2 to end it! Fans storm the court after the game.
-2019. 14-0 and 20-3 start (!) with their only bucket a banked in 3?! Oh my. SH ranked in top 25 at the time.
The above 3 are enough for me. I couldn’t quickly find an article I read a few years ago that went through each game in the past 20 or so years. A tremendous rivalry. I did find the below article from a few years ago that includes others I didn’t mention.
Rutgers vs. Seton Hall basketball: A history of high jinks
Our annual look back at the top highlights -- and controversies -- of New Jersey's most heated sports rivalry.
www.app.com
Don’t forget about the impact that winning would have either. I know the odds are stacked against, but they are not zero. Beat Gonzaga in Seattle and it doesn’t matter if every other non conference game is against a 300 type.
Everyone has it wrong. It’s not the SOS itself that matters - it’s who you beat OOC and it matters for seeding as well as selection. We were a heck of a lot more competitive @ Miami than in the Temple game. That was the win we really needed and we weren’t that far off from getting it. The issue was we gave ourselves exactly one chance against an NCAA team OOC. That’s not enough unless we go 1-0.
The year before RU lost some of those games. You can schedule some of these, you CANNOT lose them. Say what we want about how bad this year's OOC was, you win the Miami game and no one mentions it. You need one real good OOC win and don't lose to crap teams. That's all the strategy needs to be.
Yes 100%. And we were close. But unfortunately came up short and that was literally our only chance. It’s fine if Pike wants to schedule mostly the worst low majors he can fine. It’s just that we need to make sure the other real games we have control over besides Seton Hall are teams like Miami. We have no control over the Gavitt opponent. If we’re not playing in an offshore tourney for Cliff, we need to be extremely selective about that last game since we are stuck going to Wake. We need to at least give ourselves a better chance to collect a quality non-conference win.
Thanks for the info. Why does the Jimmy V have minimal interest in Rutgers at this juncture?
