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OT: “Avoiding a traffic signal” ticket

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mikemarc1

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Nov 28, 2005
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So I recently got pulled over and ticketed for “avoiding a traffic signal”

I was on highway stuck at red light in my way to shopping center. Traffic fairly heavy at light and beyond light. Main shopping center entrance was to turn right at light. Also two entrances beyond the light and an entrance before the light thru a restaurant lot that leads to main shopping center lot. So me, being the impatient person I am, cut thru the restaurant (I assumed it was part of the shopping center to which I was heading towards, anyway), and as I left the restaurant lot to road connecting to main lot, cop pulls me over.

I was honest, said I was trying to avoid the traffic so figured I’d take shortcut in. He tells me it’s against law to do and issues me a ticket. I said I had no idea it was illegal and wouldn’t have done it had I known. Says it will be a fine and points..but ticket said no court appearance is required.

So figured I’d just pay fine, take points and learn my lesson. But turns out I can’t pay and must go to court. A judge will determine my fine and points. Any advice on getting minimal penalty? Will be my first court appearance, my first traffic violation in 15 years of driving..I’m sure that will help, but don’t know what to expect. I also have a pba card..will that do anything in court?

Thanks in advance!
 
mikemarc1 said:
So I recently got pulled over and ticketed for “avoiding a traffic signal”

I was on highway stuck at red light in my way to shopping center. Traffic fairly heavy at light and beyond light. Main shopping center entrance was to turn right at light. Also two entrances beyond the light and an entrance before the light thru a restaurant lot that leads to main shopping center lot. So me, being the impatient person I am, cut thru the restaurant (I assumed it was part of the shopping center to which I was heading towards, anyway), and as I left the restaurant lot to road connecting to main lot, cop pulls me over.

I was honest, said I was trying to avoid the traffic so figured I’d take shortcut in. He tells me it’s against law to do and issues me a ticket. I said I had no idea it was illegal and wouldn’t have done it had I known. Says it will be a fine and points..but ticket said no court appearance is required.

So figured I’d just pay fine, take points and learn my lesson. But turns out I can’t pay and must go to court. A judge will determine my fine and points. Any advice on getting minimal penalty? Will be my first court appearance, my first traffic violation in 15 years of driving..I’m sure that will help, but don’t know what to expect. I also have a pba card..will that do anything in court?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

PBA cards are useless in court.

The thing you want to do is avoid the points. Points will get you an insurance surcharge. It's the gift that keeps on giving in the Great Democratik Republik of New Jersey.

Go to court, join the line to speak to the prosecutor before session begins and get your point-carrying violation changed to Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle. It's a $400 fine, but no points. You'll come out ahead in the long run.
 
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RU4Real said:
mikemarc1 said:
So I recently got pulled over and ticketed for “avoiding a traffic signal”

I was on highway stuck at red light in my way to shopping center. Traffic fairly heavy at light and beyond light. Main shopping center entrance was to turn right at light. Also two entrances beyond the light and an entrance before the light thru a restaurant lot that leads to main shopping center lot. So me, being the impatient person I am, cut thru the restaurant (I assumed it was part of the shopping center to which I was heading towards, anyway), and as I left the restaurant lot to road connecting to main lot, cop pulls me over.

I was honest, said I was trying to avoid the traffic so figured I’d take shortcut in. He tells me it’s against law to do and issues me a ticket. I said I had no idea it was illegal and wouldn’t have done it had I known. Says it will be a fine and points..but ticket said no court appearance is required.

So figured I’d just pay fine, take points and learn my lesson. But turns out I can’t pay and must go to court. A judge will determine my fine and points. Any advice on getting minimal penalty? Will be my first court appearance, my first traffic violation in 15 years of driving..I’m sure that will help, but don’t know what to expect. I also have a pba card..will that do anything in court?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

PBA cards are useless in court.

The thing you want to do is avoid the points. Points will get you an insurance surcharge. It's the gift that keeps on giving in the Great Democratik Republik of New Jersey.

Go to court, join the line to speak to the prosecutor before session begins and get your point-carrying violation changed to Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle. It's a $400 fine, but no points. You'll come out ahead in the long run.
Click to expand...

Thank you! The thing I’m most worried about is the points. In doing research this penalty is usually just 2 points. Will that make a dramatic impact on my insurance?
 
I would have stopped at the restaurant lot, texted something to somebody and then went into the shopping center lot.
 
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Armor and Sword said:
I would have stopped at the restaurant lot, texted something to somebody and then went into the shopping center lot.
Click to expand...

Next time I attempt it...that’s what I’d do! Again, didn’t realize I was doing anything illegal so didn’t think to do anything like that!
 
RU4Real said:
mikemarc1 said:
So I recently got pulled over and ticketed for “avoiding a traffic signal”

I was on highway stuck at red light in my way to shopping center. Traffic fairly heavy at light and beyond light. Main shopping center entrance was to turn right at light. Also two entrances beyond the light and an entrance before the light thru a restaurant lot that leads to main shopping center lot. So me, being the impatient person I am, cut thru the restaurant (I assumed it was part of the shopping center to which I was heading towards, anyway), and as I left the restaurant lot to road connecting to main lot, cop pulls me over.

I was honest, said I was trying to avoid the traffic so figured I’d take shortcut in. He tells me it’s against law to do and issues me a ticket. I said I had no idea it was illegal and wouldn’t have done it had I known. Says it will be a fine and points..but ticket said no court appearance is required.

So figured I’d just pay fine, take points and learn my lesson. But turns out I can’t pay and must go to court. A judge will determine my fine and points. Any advice on getting minimal penalty? Will be my first court appearance, my first traffic violation in 15 years of driving..I’m sure that will help, but don’t know what to expect. I also have a pba card..will that do anything in court?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

PBA cards are useless in court.

The thing you want to do is avoid the points. Points will get you an insurance surcharge. It's the gift that keeps on giving in the Great Democratik Republik of New Jersey.

Go to court, join the line to speak to the prosecutor before session begins and get your point-carrying violation changed to Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle. It's a $400 fine, but no points. You'll come out ahead in the long run.
Click to expand...

Do I have to plead “not guilty” to do this? It says on ticket if I don’t plead guilty I have to notify court a week in advance. Don’t know all this legal mumbo jumbo..is this something I can do without contacting the court beforehand?
 
Last edited:
mikemarc1 said:
Do I have to plead “not guilty” to do this? It says on ticket if I don’t plead guilty I have to notify court a week in advance. Don’t know all this legal mumbo jumbo..is this something I can do without contacting the court beforehand?
Click to expand...
You need to go to court unless you're going to plead guilty and take the fine and points. You plead not guilty, and then the prosecutor usually offers you a lower violation. Your goal here is to get the prosecutor to change the charge to unsafe operation or something along those lines, to which you will then plead guilty to because it is a lower punishment.

I'm always surprised when people don't realize this is illegal. Same with driving on the shoulder to get to the upcoming exit faster.
 
Last edited:
The fact that the cop did not let you go with a warning for the most egregious "offense" is sad especially if you were polite throughout. The fact that this is a points violation and not a straight fine is jersey through and through. Mind boggling.
 
mikemarc1 said:
Do I have to plead “not guilty” to do this? It says on ticket if I don’t plead guilty I have to notify court a week in advance. Don’t know all this legal mumbo jumbo..is this something I can do without contacting the court beforehand?
Click to expand...

You said that the summons indicated a court appearance was mandatory. If so, then you don't have to notify them of a plea in advance, since you're showing up regardless.
 
mikemarc1 said:
Do I have to plead “not guilty” to do this? It says on ticket if I don’t plead guilty I have to notify court a week in advance. Don’t know all this legal mumbo jumbo..is this something I can do without contacting the court beforehand?
Click to expand...

What 4 Real said...I've had a couple "chats" with a prosecutor over speeding tix. If not a mandatory hearing, You plead "not guilty" on the summons, send the summons in/contact the court. When you speak to the prosecutor on your court date, the goal for you is to get the prosecutor to agree that you will plead guilty to a lesser offense during the court date. Then the prosecutor informs the judge that you've changed your plea.
 
RU4Real said:
PBA cards are useless in court.

The thing you want to do is avoid the points. Points will get you an insurance surcharge. It's the gift that keeps on giving in the Great Democratik Republik of New Jersey.

Go to court, join the line to speak to the prosecutor before session begins and get your point-carrying violation changed to Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle. It's a $400 fine, but no points. You'll come out ahead in the long run.
Click to expand...
This is not necessarily the right advice call your insurance company up and ask how 2 points will affect your rate. This is a very minor ticket and might not raise your rates as well. Also the $400 option is careless driving and some insurance companies assign Insurance Points for this. vs license points that the state assigns. Every insurance company handles things differently.
 
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jreinsdorf said:
The fact that the cop did not let you go with a warning for the most egregious "offense" is sad especially if you were polite throughout. The fact that this is a points violation and not a straight fine is jersey through and through. Mind boggling.
Click to expand...

He did admit to the officer doing exactly what he was ticketed for.
 
rurichdog said:
jreinsdorf said:
The fact that the cop did not let you go with a warning for the most egregious "offense" is sad especially if you were polite throughout. The fact that this is a points violation and not a straight fine is jersey through and through. Mind boggling.
Click to expand...

He did admit to the officer doing exactly what he was ticketed for.
Click to expand...

Yup. Not blaming the cop at all. Would hope the way I acted will help me when I have to go to court.
 
fg7321 said:
This is not necessarily the right advice call your insurance company up and ask how 2 points will affect your rate. This is a very minor ticket and might not raise your rates as well. Also the $400 option is careless driving and some insurance companies assign Insurance Points for this. vs license points that the state assigns. Every insurance company handles things differently.
Click to expand...

Wrong.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

The "$400 option" is 39:4-97.2, "Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle" and "shall not be assessed any motor vehicle penalty points pursuant to section 1 of P.L.1982, c.43."

Careless Driving is 39:4-97, under which you face a fine of $50 to $200, up to 15 days in jail, $33 court costs, and 2 points on your license.

The two offenses are within the same subsection of Title 39 but are completely different offenses.

Any and all attorneys doing business in traffic court will recommend that you take the Unsafe Operation option if a) you can afford the cash up front and b) if you have not used it in the last 5 years. Within a 5 year period, a second Unsafe Operation offense carries an even higher fine and a *third* Unsafe Operation offense carries a fine and a 2 point assessment.

You may not plead to Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle more than 3 times in your life. It's a "get out of jail for not so free" card that should be used wisely and sparingly. Since the OP has an otherwise good driving record, it's a solid option.

Insomuch as insurance surcharges go, there is a difference between a surcharge and a rate hike. While the original offense that OP describes does not carry a surcharge, it absolutely will result in a rate hike, unless he's paying for "ticket forgiveness", which no one should ever do (same as "accident forgiveness") because they charge you more up front for it.
 
The other thing you might want to do is get the property/zoning maps for the restaurant and shopping center. If they are actually the same property, then your defense may be that you weren't actually avoiding the light, but just pulling into the first entrance to the parking lot of your destination.
 
Should have said you were trying to be a good citizen and alleviate traffic in the already congested intersection by taking one car (yours) out of the mix.

Kidding of course. That’s a pet peeve of mine, people who claim you can easily talk your way out of tickets, jury duty, etc.

Surprised he didn’t let you off with a warning, though.
 
Not saying you should go out and pay for a lawyer but if you have a connection to a friend or family member who is one I’ve been told (during my experience with this) that there is a tendency for the prosecutor to give them more leniency when doing the pre-court conversation (that 4real mentioned earlier). Who knows if it holds true all the time but essentially the thought was they give more help to the attorney than the direct defendant so as to keep the ‘food chain’ flowing smoothly (and not increase the idea that no one would need to bring a lawyer into the mix).
*this was family and friends of family lawyers so no one trying to make money off telling me that.

Note- not saying pay a bunch of money just to get the lawyer to help on this...just that if it’s readily accessible for you it could be a benefit.
 
RU4Real said:
PBA cards are useless in court.

The thing you want to do is avoid the points. Points will get you an insurance surcharge. It's the gift that keeps on giving in the Great Democratik Republik of New Jersey.

Go to court, join the line to speak to the prosecutor before session begins and get your point-carrying violation changed to Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle. It's a $400 fine, but no points. You'll come out ahead in the long run.
Click to expand...

Beyond 2 points. Not allowed to raise rates for just 2.

And even you get 2, take the driving class and it gets rid of them (you can only do this so many times in a given period) and a reduction in rate.
 
NotInRHouse said:
RU4Real said:
PBA cards are useless in court.

The thing you want to do is avoid the points. Points will get you an insurance surcharge. It's the gift that keeps on giving in the Great Democratik Republik of New Jersey.

Go to court, join the line to speak to the prosecutor before session begins and get your point-carrying violation changed to Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle. It's a $400 fine, but no points. You'll come out ahead in the long run.
Click to expand...

Beyond 2 points. Not allowed to raise rates for just 2.

And even you get 2, take the driving class and it gets rid of them (you can only do this so many times in a given period) and a reduction in rate.
Click to expand...

I’ve heard insurance points are different than traffic points. 2 points on license doesn’t necessarily mean 2 points on insurance. Could be more, could be less. Depending on carrier. Also have been told not to call and ask as they wouldn’t know and it’s a waste of time.

Might just try to pay the larger fine for the lesser offense and have nothing to worry about regarding points.
 
Upstream said:
The other thing you might want to do is get the property/zoning maps for the restaurant and shopping center. If they are actually the same property, then your defense may be that you weren't actually avoiding the light, but just pulling into the first entrance to the parking lot of your destination.
Click to expand...

Not a bad idea I suppose, may be a loophole to exploit.

This kind of reminds me of random stop signs or speed limit signs along internal drives or within parking lots of shopping centers when entirely within private property and there is no public right-of-way. Not sure about all states, but depending on the motor vehicle code the enforcement of traffic laws only applies to public roads and within the public roadway ROW. Something to consider and understand if you find yourself in that situation and may be able to get a ticket thrown out.
 
your first mistake was admitting what you did, you could have just said you turned into the wrong parking lot or you changed your mind about going to the place
 
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mikemarc1 said:
So I recently got pulled over and ticketed for “avoiding a traffic signal”

I was on highway stuck at red light in my way to shopping center. Traffic fairly heavy at light and beyond light. Main shopping center entrance was to turn right at light. Also two entrances beyond the light and an entrance before the light thru a restaurant lot that leads to main shopping center lot. So me, being the impatient person I am, cut thru the restaurant (I assumed it was part of the shopping center to which I was heading towards, anyway), and as I left the restaurant lot to road connecting to main lot, cop pulls me over.

I was honest, said I was trying to avoid the traffic so figured I’d take shortcut in. He tells me it’s against law to do and issues me a ticket. I said I had no idea it was illegal and wouldn’t have done it had I known. Says it will be a fine and points..but ticket said no court appearance is required.

So figured I’d just pay fine, take points and learn my lesson. But turns out I can’t pay and must go to court. A judge will determine my fine and points. Any advice on getting minimal penalty? Will be my first court appearance, my first traffic violation in 15 years of driving..I’m sure that will help, but don’t know what to expect. I also have a pba card..will that do anything in court?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
This sounds weird and in all seriousness do you have a block R magnet on your car....I would plead not guilty and go to trial without a lawyer...do the zoning board/layout thing where it shows it's on the property...was the restaraunt open for business? If not bring the hours of operation and say you were going to eat and it was closed or you decided to eat afterwards..this most likely will be dismissed before trial and if the proescuter does want to go to trial don't be intimidated, they have to prove you are guilty, if you say you wanted eat and run errands but decided to run errands first, it ain't gonna matter what the cop says about you avoiding a red light...bring your receipt from the store that says you did actually need to turn off of the main road into that area...

Always remember anything you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law...but regardless that cop ain't gonna remember and most likely won't even show up so it will be dismissed...the judicial system is the biggest scam in this country but don't be intimidated, plead not guilty and let them prove you were trying to avoid a red light...even if that cop remembers word for word what u said ( which he won't) a judge will side with you...
 
RU4Real said:
PBA cards are useless in court.

The thing you want to do is avoid the points. Points will get you an insurance surcharge. It's the gift that keeps on giving in the Great Democratik Republik of New Jersey.

Go to court, join the line to speak to the prosecutor before session begins and get your point-carrying violation changed to Unsafe Operation of a Motor Vehicle. It's a $400 fine, but no points. You'll come out ahead in the long run.
Click to expand...
This is all the advice the OP needs, always avoid points, end of thread!
 
RutgersROB said:
This sounds weird and in all seriousness do you have a block R magnet on your car....I would plead not guilty and go to trial without a lawyer...do the zoning board/layout thing where it shows it's on the property...was the restaraunt open for business? If not bring the hours of operation and say you were going to eat and it was closed or you decided to eat afterwards..this most likely will be dismissed before trial and if the proescuter does want to go to trial don't be intimidated, they have to prove you are guilty, if you say you wanted eat and run errands but decided to run errands first, it ain't gonna matter what the cop says about you avoiding a red light...bring your receipt from the store that says you did actually need to turn off of the main road into that area...

Always remember anything you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law...but regardless that cop ain't gonna remember and most likely won't even show up so it will be dismissed...the judicial system is the biggest scam in this country but don't be intimidated, plead not guilty and let them prove you were trying to avoid a red light...even if that cop remembers word for word what u said ( which he won't) a judge will side with you...
Click to expand...

This is the most spectacular display of wrongness I've seen on this board since... well, yesterday.
 
mikemarc1 said:
How so? I wasn’t speeding. Went slow thru the lot.

And it’s not like I was going back on the highway. I was going to other side of lot.
Click to expand...
Not in your case perhaps but folks were asking why it is a law in general.
 
Possibly the owner of the place complained about this repeatedly happening

To a person doing it once it seems unfair
 
mikemarc1 said:
Fair. The law should take into account speed thru the lot, in my opinion.

And the law is “avoiding a traffic signal”...not “cutting thru lot to avoid a traffic signal.” Law doesn’t make sense to me..which is why i has no idea I was breaking it.
Click to expand...
Not sure what difference this makes (the law is “avoiding a traffic signal”...not “cutting thru lot to avoid a traffic signal.”). Predominantly cutting thru parking lots is the main way to avoid traffic lights. Although a friend of mine got a ticket many years ago on Route 1 at 1:00 am for taking the jug handle at a red light and then getting back on Route 1 immediately. Admittedly, a tad more unsafe then your situation. He tried to tell the cop there's no one else on the road but the cop wasn't buying it. So you want the cops to asses every situation where someone is avoiding a light? Sure the cop could have given you a warning but he didn't.
 
RULoyal said:
mikemarc1 said:
Fair. The law should take into account speed thru the lot, in my opinion.

And the law is “avoiding a traffic signal”...not “cutting thru lot to avoid a traffic signal.” Law doesn’t make sense to me..which is why i has no idea I was breaking it.
Click to expand...
Not sure what difference this makes (the law is “avoiding a traffic signal”...not “cutting thru lot to avoid a traffic signal.”). Predominantly cutting thru parking lots is the main way to avoid traffic lights. Although a friend of mine got a ticket many years ago on Route 1 at 1:00 am for taking the jug handle at a red light and then getting back on Route 1 immediately. Admittedly, a tad more unsafe then your situation. He tried to tell the cop there's no one else on the road but the cop wasn't buying it. So you want the cops to asses every situation where someone is avoiding a light? Sure the cop could have given you a warning but he didn't.
Click to expand...

Yah..again I’m not “blaming the cop”. No reason he should have given me a warning...yes he could’ve. But I broke the law so good for him for doing his job.

I’m blaming the law. Many lots have signs saying “no thru traffic”..what’s the point of those signs..if no lots allow thru traffic?

And again, I wasn’t passing thru the lot. I was passing thru that side of the lot to get to the other side of the lot. (Though yes, there is an access road separating them..which is part of the property, though, anyway). Very obscure law..which still doesn’t make much sense to me. In talking to friends and family about my ticket, I’ve heard many “I’ve done that same thing....same lot, as well.” Just a money grab law, imo.
 
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