Yet money wasted on all sorts of nonsense.
OT: DEVASTATING WILDFIRE ….Santa Monica/Palisades fire being aided by 50-80mph Santa Ana winds. 100mph possible overnight
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Sacremento San joaquin delta
Water being directed out to see
Water being directed out to see
Absolutely - maybe not the scale of LA, but certainly the scale of Lahaina. I don't think people understand how tinderbox dry fuel (houses and vegetation) conditions, very low humidity and hurricane force winds, plus an ignition source can lead to a fire going from tiny to a town-wide conflagration in a few hours. Lahaina and LA, unfortunately, will not be the last such tragedies. I've been involved in a few chemical fire simulations in my day, but those are like child's play compared to a wildfire with 80-100 mph wind gusts.
Reading the article below (a few excerpts from it in italics, below), made it really hit home for me how critical the nearly unprecedented sustained winds and wind gusts were to what happened in LA, despite CAL-FIRE's well-earned reputation of being the finest wildfire fighting force in the world. These winds not only prevented airborne water drops, but they also prevented the initial intelligence gathering and early "attack" aircraft from flying, meaning the whole operation was flying blind, so to speak, preventing the wildfires from being contained while small, which is much easier than battling a full-blown conflagration traveling at hundreds of yards per minute. As Wayne Coulson said (below), "when the wind is howling like that nothing's going to stop that fire."
I'm guessing the next frontier for CAL FIRE is going to be figuring out ways to fight wildfires without manned aircraft - maybe drone technology could do some of the job - or maybe figuring out safe ways to fly in the kind of winds we had for this fire.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/california-wildfires-technology-war.html
The scale of the destruction is all the more dismaying given how assiduously California has prepared itself to combat wildfires. The state’s Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, better known as CAL FIRE, spends $4 billion a year on prevention and mitigation. Over the last decade that money has allowed it to assemble an army-like force of unprecedented sophistication and scale, with a staff of 12,000 and an aerial firefighting fleet larger than most countries’ air forces.
Yet in the face of some of the worst fire conditions in over a decade, it hasn’t been enough. Though some 9,000 firefighters were on hand to battle this week’s blazes, they were overwhelmed by the multiple wildfires that moved at hundreds of yards per minute. “We don’t have enough fire personnel in L.A. County between all the departments to handle this,” L.A. County fire chief Anthony Marrone told the L.A. Times on Wednesday.
Even the most formidable human efforts are useless when bone-dry undergrowth is whipped by the strongest winds the area has experienced in years, with gusts up to 100 mph. “When that wind is howling like that, nothing’s going to stop that fire,” says Wayne Coulson, CEO of the aerial firefighting company Coulson Aviation that’s battling the fires. “You just need to get out of the way.”
Unfortunately, in extreme-weather events like the one currently gripping Southern California, conditions can be too severe for firefighting aircraft to take off. To get around this, aerial firefighting company Coulson Aviation has developed the ability to fight fires at night, when winds usually die down. But the winds currently buffeting the region have been so intense that they weren’t able to fly even then. “We were scheduled to fly all night, but the winds just didn’t subside,” company CEO Wayne Coulson told me Wednesday morning. “We’ll fly when the wind is under 50 knots. But it was blowing 50, 60 knots last night. It’s been violent.” (The crews were eventually able to get airborne later that day.)
The beauty of blaming "climate change" is that its highlighted as a crisis needing to be addressed "now" so that things might be ok in 50 years. These turkeys don't even have to show results.
China (energy poor) and Russia pay the climate groups/unis to steer US industry off a cliff while they get to grow energy sector on US demise. CCP green energy is huge for them with US paying the bills.
How is removing trees/grass/bushes to make room for millions of toxic plastic panels "green." Its crazy.
“We were up against Russia pushing oligarchs and others to buy media. We were even up against phony environmental groups, and I’m a big environmentalist, but these were funded by the Russians to stand against any effort, ’Oh that pipeline, that fracking, that whatever will be a problem for you,’ and a lot of the money supporting that message was coming from Russia,” Mrs. Clinton said in her remarks."
Hillary C
Schellenberger loses all credibility by saying, "Climate change isn't responsible for the LA fires. Gavin Newsom and Karen Bass are." Climate change has likely exacerbated the severity of the wildfires, as per my earlier post on this, but it in no way is "responsible" for them and neither are Newsom or Bass - that's just ridiculous hyperbole. Stupid humans (or even criminal ones it appears in one case) are responsible for starting the wildfires and decades of putting buildings in a heavily vegetated desert are what has made the impacts of these fires far worse. Newsom and Bass may or may not be shown to have helped make the situation worse (we'll need a thorough investigation to figure out root causes), but they're certainly not responsible for the fires. Schellenberger is also barely even a scientist, so I'm not sure why he has so many followers, but then again, many of his followers wouldn't know science if it bit them on the ass.
When NJ recently had their forest fires in Northern NJ, it appeared like the only way it was stopped was when the winds slowed down and it started to rain. It’s hard to control the weather.
NJ is normally safer than most of the country, especially California and Florida, another reason to stay in NJ. So many people moving to Florida even though they know the risk. Insurance companies don’t want to insure in Florida or California due to the risks. People have to accept the consequences of their decision to live in riskier locations. Life goes on till the next natural disaster, school shooting or mass killings.
I find it amusing that the people complaining about the government actually want as small a government as possible. They cut the fire department by $17 million or 2% of the budget, probably across the board cuts to cut the deficit. I don’t know if $17 million would have made a difference.
NJ is normally safer than most of the country, especially California and Florida, another reason to stay in NJ. So many people moving to Florida even though they know the risk. Insurance companies don’t want to insure in Florida or California due to the risks. People have to accept the consequences of their decision to live in riskier locations. Life goes on till the next natural disaster, school shooting or mass killings.
I find it amusing that the people complaining about the government actually want as small a government as possible. They cut the fire department by $17 million or 2% of the budget, probably across the board cuts to cut the deficit. I don’t know if $17 million would have made a difference.
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wanting small government has nothing to do with this. Most people have no problem paying for emergency services. The government is the one getting in the way of the controlled burns as well as water supply and will get in the way when it comes time to rebuild. They had to cut the budget because the government decided to waste an incredible surplus of money the state had because they wasted it on allowing illegals to come into the country and then fed and housed them. They wasted millions on the homeless situation that did NOTHING to solve the problem. They pushed businesses and tax revenue out of the state due to their policies. They shut down so many small businesses and more tax revenue during covid that never came back. California is like Shangri-la and big government came in and ruined it. Theres a reason so many people and business left in the last few years.
Exactly right about small government. Emergency services are important. And NJ, which is a bookend to California with nonsensical spending and handing out high paying jobs to people has this:
Williams Brewer had been earning $175,000 annually as interim executive director. According to payroll records, at least four other CEOs within state government collect salaries between $210,000 and $295,000.
NJ watchdog chief owns house in Maryland, teaches in D.C., votes in Tinton Falls
Tiffany Williams Brewer was named as chief executive officer of the State Commission of Investigation on Monday.
www.app.com
Absolutely true. I loved the years that I lived in Ventura County. It was Heaven on Earth. But then you had to deal with rolling blackouts, high income taxes and consumer taxes, high insurance fees and user fees. COVID lock downs closed numerous businesses. Public schools were overrun with non-English speaking students even at the high school level. When was offered a corporate relocation to come back east I jumped on it. I would have loved to retire there, but it was impractical.
this from the article is quite astonishing....and another reason people don't trust our government full of waste and corruption.Exactly right about small government. Emergency services are important. And NJ, which is a bookend to California with nonsensical spending and handing out high paying jobs to people has this:
Williams Brewer had been earning $175,000 annually as interim executive director. According to payroll records, at least four other CEOs within state government collect salaries between $210,000 and $295,000.
NJ watchdog chief owns house in Maryland, teaches in D.C., votes in Tinton Falls
Tiffany Williams Brewer was named as chief executive officer of the State Commission of Investigation on Monday.www.app.com
While holding two full-time jobs isn’t illegal for public employees, experts said Williams Brewer’s dual roles – as a Howard professor and executive running SCI’s daily operations – raise questions about her commitment to taxpayers.
How is someone working for the state able to perform their job if they are allowed to have another full time job?
Imagine having you entire home destroyed, where you and your family made years of memories, and to see your neighbors' homesdestroyed too. . .
If you check one or more of the right boxes, it's easy. And that door swings on both sides of the aisle. Too many patronage, no show jobs. At the County level in NJ, it's insane.
yeah once it went super woke it was no longer heaven on earth. i know several people moving out. sad.
true and this has been going on for decades. My dad was the man in charge of Wanaque reservoir for 40+ years but he had to answer to the North Jersey District Water Commission for everything. It was a group of political appointees who showed up 1x a month and collected fat stacks for doing nothing. All of them had other full time jobs
I lived in Moorpark. Fantastic location that was situated between Simi Valley, Thousand Oaks and Camarillo. We were about 1.5 miles from the Reagan Library.
Most every weekend my wife and I would head to Oxnard where she would do yoga class on the beach and I would run the dog in and out of the surf. Lots of neat bars and restaurants in downtown Ventura. We also spent much time on the wine trails in Santa Barbara County. The only downside on the beaches around that area is there is so much oil that it seeps up through the sand. You need to clean your feet with solvent after a visit to the Santa Barbara beaches.
This is what the discussion should be now. That’s it. The rest is toxic nonsense.
Not really.
Talking about what can be done in the future is an important part of this. And finding out what when right or wrong, along who did what and when/why is too.
There is an adult way of doing that. We call it a critique in my profession. Usually happens pretty soon right after the event. More in-depth conversation/study happens later.
heads need to roll for the incompetent leaders .
The mega millions guy got hit.
I read fire might wipe out insurance sector in CA
All-State had pulled out from 1000+ homes last summer
https://nypost.com/2025/01/10/us-ne...n-malibu-home-destroyed-in-la-palisades-fire/
Last sprinf insurers said they would go back to home insurance in CA if it allowed catastrophic modeling
I read fire might wipe out insurance sector in CA
All-State had pulled out from 1000+ homes last summer
https://nypost.com/2025/01/10/us-ne...n-malibu-home-destroyed-in-la-palisades-fire/
Last sprinf insurers said they would go back to home insurance in CA if it allowed catastrophic modeling
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thats what they said during covid too
accountability has to happen otherwise governors like Murphy/Cuomo who sent covid patients to nursing homes to infect the eldery and effectively kill them get off scott free
this exactly. Most well run organizations do the same. We have investigations to determine root cause and ways to improve anytime any little thing goes off course, its a huge part of our operations.
We called them "After Action Reviews." Same concept, presumably, using root cause analysis, 5 Whys, Failure Mode Effects Analysis, and other tools. And while there's certainly a dispassionate, reasoned, adult way of doing them, we're seeing very little of that in this thread, which is not unusual. We also typically did a condensed, fast version soon after the event where constructing a painstakingly detailed chronological "process map" of what happened was the first step, i.e., collecting all of the facts, data, and key decision points, while they were still fresh in everyone's minds.
For minor events where they often was one singular action or decision that was the root cause that was often enough, but for major events, a deeper dive later on was carried out where the team (and various sub-teams) dove into analysis of the state of the system prior to the event in an attempt to determine what systems and actions prior to the event contributed to it and also analyzing what actions and decisions during the event evaluating which of them could have been done better and which of them went well. For the analysis of the pre-event situation we used a tool common to the airline, chemical and other industries, called LOPA (layers of protection analysis) to evaluate whether the various systems in place to prevent such events functioned well or not and if there were key layers missing or key procedures not followed.
Whenever there's a catastrophic event in any industry or in the environment, typically there are multiple failures at multiple layers or key points involved, i.e., it's usually not something simplistic or obvious or one key thing, only. That's how the "Swiss Cheese Model" of accident/incident analysis, developed by James Reason in the 90s, as originally applied to aviation was developed and is in use in many industries now. Can be eye opening.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model
Critique is so important. For some reason, in emergency services, especially fire, in my experience, critique is done extremely well. Except in very rare cases, there is no finger pointing or blame shifting. There is ownership and up and down the line, from the firefighters doing the grunt work, the chauffeurs/engineers doing the driving/pumping, to the line officers and the overall incident commander. Everyone owns their successes and mistakes. Importantly, if something that was done well is not part of standard operating procedures/guidelines, that should should be added, and drilled on. Similarly, for items that did not work or points of failure, what can the crews do to work around a lack of resources, and what can the leaders do to request the proper resources.
The biggest questions right now in the LA is water supply and budget- allocation of resources to items that impact the residents and visitors to the city. The question is, will the politicians take ownership? They rarely do. They are masters at the art of denial, blame shifting and finger pointing. But the fire departments will still be there giving their all, understaffed and under paid, some being volunteers. Years ago, I wanted to quit my day job and become a paid firefighter. My better half talked me out of it, and she was right. I could not "work" where my resources were frequently being cut. I'm happy to volunteer my services.
Good stuff. Some corporations and private businesses are good at this.
We like to think we do it well in our small office. As one of the managers, I'm first to say when we are one of the the points of failure to point at ourselves.
Agree on the first paragraph completely, but not the second, where you're already making assumptions of what went wrong before looking at the data - typical confirmation bias (and I'm not saying politicians don't make mistakes, but let's get the data and analyze the actual impacts first). I've done it too, in this thread, where my personal working assumption is that the biggest issue is not having the ability to fly at the very start of the wildfires in very high winds. That might be wrong.
Not sure where my reply went but I’ll try again
I don’t disagree that anyone and everything responsible should be held accountable after a thorough and thoughtful review. Are critiques done by the interweb usually considered as valuable and helpful as the ones done by people actually working the fire?
Seems that what observers can do more productively now is support victims and firefighters.
btw my brother is another Cook grad who spent a few seasons on fires out west and around the country. I was visiting near a fire this summer days after a pilot died crashing on a water pickup. Tragic. In the days that followed at least 4 planes and helicopters kept circling on water drops. Kudos who all who take all these risks working to keep others safe.
My second paragraph was not specific to the LA scenario, but just years of experience and observation. My larger point is that the firefighters will continue to show up and do the best job possible with the resources provided. In some way, this may enable the governmental authorities to continue to cut budgets and resources for emergency services. It is a larger societal issue not limited to any one region or city. And it's not meant to be an attack or a negative. It just is.
I get it, but from my experience, professionals acknowledge and accept flaws in planning and will even second guess their decisions, politicians not so much.
The DEi hire mistakes are really being magnified on a large scale now. I’ve never seen LA this pissed off about their government. Everyone I talk to or hear talking are all saying the same things.
Great some moron was flying a drone and it hit one of two Super Scoopers. That plane is now grounded until Monday.
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