OT: growing grass
- Thread starter JMORC2003
- Start date
You can look back on previous pages to see where I'm coming from, but I have a VERY different philosophy from the others posting in this thread. I attempt to mimic what nature has been doing for hundreds of millions of years. Plants and soil biology are one. They've evolved together and depend on each other. I'm all about promoting life in the soil. All synthetics destroy soil life and basically turn your grass into a drug addict.
So, I do my best to trim weeds, rather than pull because even weeds are pumping liquid carbon via photosynthesis into the soil to feed soil biology. Weeds are nature's scabs. They serve a purpose. Nature is trying to repair sick soil as fast as possible. If you have a weed problem, you have unhealthy soil. Most weed seeds will not germinate in healthy soil.
Also, by pulling up plants by their roots, you're disturbing soil structure which will increase compaction and reduce water infiltration. There is a living network of fungi, bacteria, protozoa, worms, arthropods, insects, and plant roots all working together to support each other. Leave it alone.
All my newly seeded areas have done really well. The weather has certainly cooperated. Cool and lots of rain. The hot temps have only come in short bursts, too.
Keep you foot on the gas with watering though, everyone. Don’t be fooled by early season success. I made the mistake last year and large portions ended up crapping out on me. The roots are still establishing so even if it looks good today, you have to keep the sprinklers going through July and Aug.
Keep you foot on the gas with watering though, everyone. Don’t be fooled by early season success. I made the mistake last year and large portions ended up crapping out on me. The roots are still establishing so even if it looks good today, you have to keep the sprinklers going through July and Aug.
I think that seed is fine. Perennial rye germinates quickly. You might have to overseed spots from time to time if there has been very extreme seasons but no big deal. I’m not necessarily a big fan of Scott’s but their starter fertilizer with Mesotrione is good and a lot cheaper. I’d use that. You can use Peat moss (1/8 to 1/4 inch) as a top dressing instead of the straw. Much cheaper and no weed seed that straw can sometimes introduce. Some very successful renovators don’t use any top dressing so your call. If you use peat, get it wet a bit, wait, then get it wetter. It retains moisture very well but you need to get it wet initially so it doesn’t take the moisture from the seed. Don’t go cheap on the seed, though.
If you had trouble growing grass this spring something else must be wrong, like the soil or the amount of sun. The rain was almost constant.
I'm happy to say that mine went from the worst it ever looked late winter to the best its been in a long time. The only thing i added was the humic acid and some seed in bare spots. I didn't even fertilize. i never even covered the seed because it rained so much.
So the Seed Superstore was slow to call me back, and I started reading some more stuff, and Hogan's seed was rated very highly by a lot of people. I called Hogan's and one of the family members walked me through what I needed (Hogan's Blend) of Turf Type Tall Fescue blended with 10% Bluegrass. One of the nice things I learned, consistent with what you said above, is the dressing is absolutely not necessary on flat ground, so I am skipping straw/peat moss. Read in quite a few places that the Hogan Blend TTTF is really great seed.
http://www.thehogancompany.us/
The seeding will be work, but not nearly as hard as sodding, and a lot cheaper. I also picked up a 50 lb back of their starter fertilizer. Thanks for recommending Scott's, but now that I am a turf grass snob, only the finest will do.
The interesting thing Hogan's told me is for summer seeding to put only about 4 pounds/1000 feet down and that anything else is overkill. He said to over seed around September 15 with 2-3 pounds/1000 feet.
So, instead of dropping several thousands on sod, I got out for about $350 with shipping and will cover 12-14,000 square feet.
ON watering, he said to water 1/8" in the morning and 1/8" in the evening, but I have read in several places it is important to keep the seed wet during germination. Any thoughts? Would a mid-day watering hurt, if only a little?
Be careful not to overwater - the current weather light watering in the morning and evening should be fine. If we start going mid-80's and above then see if it's necessary.
I would still consider throwing some peat moss on it: it's cheap and will add to the organic material for the soil.
Home Depot or Lowes carry 3 cubic foot bales of it. I don't know if anyone sells that in bulk. How much area do you need to cover? About half a bale covered the whole area that I seeded back in April.
How much watering is over watering? Im usually much more concerned about not giving the little sprouts enough water that I wouldn’t even think that I’m watering too much.
Hogan has excellent seed too and I wouldn’t hesitate to use their TTTF. Yes, too much seed can lead to disease so “more is not better.” I agree with the approach to keep the seed wet during germination and shift from “light and frequent” watering to “deep and infrequent “ watering as the grass matures. If you are around or have an irrigation timer I’d do anywhere from 3-5 light watering for the first couple weeks. As far as timing, I might go a bit earlier than mid September (August 15 o maybe early September). But with TTTF, which germinates faster than KBG, September 15 is probably fine too. Sounds like you have come up with a great plan, good luck!
I will try to remember to post pictures. I appreciate your (and everyone else's) help.
We have about 12,000 square feet. Any idea how much peat moss I will need?
EDIT:
I read somewhere, 1/4" is ideal. That would be 250 cubic feet of peat moss.
3 cubic feet is $10.48 at Lowes. I would need 84 packages of 3 cu. ft--$880. That's a lot of $$$$
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I overwatered one time in a shaded area and ended up weeks later with a healthy crop of moss. Usually the best way is to feel the soil.
Peat moss is a non-renewable resource, which, when harvested, releases methane, a greenhouse gas, into the atmosphere. Peat moss is also acidic and will lower your soil pH.
A much better alternative for a top dressing would be compost, or coco coir.
Coconut Coir is a 100-percent natural by-product of harvesting coconut. It is also 100% renewable. Coir consists of the coarse fibers extracted from the husk on the outer shell of a coconut. Because of its superior water holding capacity, excellent air space and drainage, coir is a useful soil amendment for potted plants, containers, lawns, and gardens. Coir comes in compressed bricks. Once rehydrated, it has the look and feel of soft, loose soil.
A much better alternative for a top dressing would be compost, or coco coir.
Coconut Coir is a 100-percent natural by-product of harvesting coconut. It is also 100% renewable. Coir consists of the coarse fibers extracted from the husk on the outer shell of a coconut. Because of its superior water holding capacity, excellent air space and drainage, coir is a useful soil amendment for potted plants, containers, lawns, and gardens. Coir comes in compressed bricks. Once rehydrated, it has the look and feel of soft, loose soil.
While your environmentally friendly suggestions are nice, it would help if you provided where one could buy these products. I doubt (and hopefully I am wrong) I will find coconut coir at my local box store or nursery.
Clover is your soil's best friend. You're getting free fertilizer from the nitrogen fixing bacteria that form a symbiotic relationship w/ clover's root system. Plus, its broad leaves shade the soil surface, keeping the soil cooler during the summer. Cooler soil = less watering & more consistent soil moisture.
Thanks. I did a little research. Looks like a royal pain in the ass to work with. You have to put a brick of it in water to expand it. You have any advice or tips or amount needed to cover 12,000 sqaure feet?
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And when you say "compost", I can order this from a topsoil delivery service, correct?
The topsoil we put down has organic matter in it. The company's website says:
"Our topsoil has an organic matter content range of 6-7%. This is considered an optimal range and contributes to the topsoil's capacity to hold the right amount of water and nutrients. It also tends to improve soil aggregation, which makes topsoil more porous, allowing it to drain properly and facilitate the flow of air to plant roots, allowing for better growth."
Considering the advice I got from Hogan's seed company (don't need dressing) and that my topsoil has the amount of organic matter above, am I wasting money putting down top dressing?
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Triclopyr is the AI in Weed b gone CCO. Make sure it’s the right WBG. Can get it anywhere. Two applications at about 14 days apart.
Not sure if "aavricl" is a typo and can't figure what you were trying to type. Coco coir may not be the best option for a large scale project, but for spot patch repair it works great. I just soak the compressed brick in a large plastic tub, wait 30-60 minutes, then break it up with my hands. Its water holding capacity is amazing.
The phone auto correct feature is wonderful. I meant to say "I am an asshat". LOL.
What I meant to say is: "You have to put a brick of it in water to expand it."
You are right, though. For 12,000 square feet, it is impractical. Is Peat Moss really that bad?
Leave it alone and try to improve your soil. You can plant grass throughout the clover, as your soil improves you will see more grass over time. Killing it and starting over is way harder and will expose you to more/different weeds and will require a lot more weed killer.
There is a lot of people planting clover now instead of grass. Low maintenance and stays green all summer. That's obviously a big leap.
Soil aggregation will only come from having mycorrhizal fungi working symbiotically with living plant roots. The fungi colonize the root system of a host plant, providing increased water and nutrient absorption capabilities while the plant provides the fungus with carbohydrates formed from photosynthesis. Mycorrhizae also offer the host plant increased protection against certain pathogens. The fungi secrete a substance called glomalin, which acts as a glue to hold soil particles together. Really good, healthy soil will look like black cottage cheese. These aggregates insure that any water/rain will infiltrate deeply and remain in the soil.
Compost alone won't do that, but it will definitely help start the process. It is also important to note that in order for mycorrhizal fungi to do their magic:
The soil must not be disturbed
There needs to be a diversity of plant species
There needs to be living roots in the ground 24/7/365
There should be no/limited used of synthetics
In your case, I would definitely go the compost route. Most places that deliver topsoil will also have compost. You want a fungal dominated compost NOT bacterial dominated compost. If you get a funny look or comment when inquiring about this, the vendor doesn't know their compost. Also, check your township or county recycling centers for free compost. You'll most likely have to transport it yourself, but if you have the means, the price is right.
Lastly, you may want to consider making your own compost. I save every fall leaf that falls on my property. Leaves (shredded work best), combined with kitchen and yard waste make a great compost.
That's a funny auto correct. I never would have gotten it.
Like I said above, peat moss is acidic, a non-renewable resource, its harvest from peat bogs contributes to greenhouse emissions, and personally, I don't think its water holding capabilities are very good. Try mixing peat with water. From my experience, the peat repels water and once it is wet, dries out very quickly. See my latest post re: compost
I remember reading that they used to add clover to seed mix in 60's as it is a good nitrogen fixing plant and hardy but a lawn full of clover? What happens in winter, doesn't it die back? Regarding seeding now, strongly suggest either peat moss or straw as it will get hot soon and even with frequent watering it won't take long for sun to burn out new grass. If planting in fall you could get away with direct seed, no cover.
I purposely seeded micro clover into my grass seed mix (approx 10%). Best lawn decision i've ever made. Lawn looks great (especially during a heat wave), I'm getting free/natural fertilizer, and I barely have to water. Somewhere in the past, the synthetic fertilizer/pesticide/herbicide companies convinced the public that clover is a "weed". A real shame.
Thank you.
What is your thought on this, available at our local supplier:
COMPOSTED HORSE MANURE
For over thirty years, we have been delivering horse manure to local homeowners, gardeners, landscapers and nurseries. Composted horse manure is ideal for conditioning soils in flowerbeds and vegetable gardens, planting grass or sod, and mulching. Derived from a blend of clean, organic materials, including; stable bedding and sawdust, horse urine and manure. Raw materials are stacked into huge, moist piles, which are turned regularly to promote aerobic composting. The natural biological activity causes the piles to heat up to over 160ºF, killing weed seeds, roots, and pathogens. Horse Manure Compost is a biologically active product that builds healthy soil and healthy plants.
Sounds great as long as the composted manure has been cured. Curing is the time the compost just basically sits idle after the heating process. Fresh manure or "hot" compost should never be applied directly to plants. The primary benefit of curing is to lower the phytotoxicity, improve the pH, and lower the C/N ratio.
The project drags on due to the very heavy rain last Sunday into Monday. Sprinklers set to go in tomorrow.
At this point, wondering if we should just hold out until August 10 or so and drop the seed then. We have waited this long without a lawn, and it is kind of nice not having to mow. Or give it a shot this coming weekend lightly seeding now and over seeding in the fall?
At this point, wondering if we should just hold out until August 10 or so and drop the seed then. We have waited this long without a lawn, and it is kind of nice not having to mow. Or give it a shot this coming weekend lightly seeding now and over seeding in the fall?
I have mostly given up on my lawn where it refuses to grow . I plug with Meyer Zoysia and get beautiful lawn all summer long. In the winter Nov to May it turns white. Other benefit to Zoysia is it spreads to other areas.
In the front i put down pre-emergent. In the back with two dogs ony fertilizer.#1 cause of dog cancer is pesticide in your lawn. Most likely a cause of human cancer as well.
In the front i put down pre-emergent. In the back with two dogs ony fertilizer.#1 cause of dog cancer is pesticide in your lawn. Most likely a cause of human cancer as well.
i think you missed your opportunity for spring. You will need to water 3 or 4 times a day to keep it alive. Not worth the effort. Wait until fall
I hope you’re keeping the sprinklers on through this heat, fellas. Don’t give the “wait until Fall to seed “crowd the satisfaction of having your new grass crap out.
With that said, nice soaking last night with the storm coming through. Foot on the gas though. my front yard gets direct sun and roasts when it’s hot.
With that said, nice soaking last night with the storm coming through. Foot on the gas though. my front yard gets direct sun and roasts when it’s hot.
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So the new area I seeded/reseeded back a couple of months ago is taking a real beating because of all this damn rain. And even worse, I'm getting a ton of these particular weeds:
Any idea what that particular weed is and what I can use to get rid of it?
Any idea what that particular weed is and what I can use to get rid of it?
So the new area I seeded/reseeded back a couple of months ago is taking a real beating because of all this damn rain. And even worse, I'm getting a ton of these particular weeds:
Any idea what that particular weed is and what I can use to get rid of it?
I'm guessing stiltgrass
https://njaes.rutgers.edu/fs1237/
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