OT: NJ microbrew industry in jeopardy?

[tom1944]

As a non drinker I have a question. Are these breweries expected to sell their product to restaurants, bars and liquor stores as a wholesaler or are they operating as a retailer selling directly to consumers and for on site use?

Or is it a mix of both

I am interested in what the statute they operate under says but also what the business model has actually become for most of them

 

[robcac26]

As a non drinker I have a question. Are these breweries expected to sell their product to restaurants, bars and liquor stores as a wholesaler or are they operating as a retailer selling directly to consumers and for on site use?

Or is it a mix of both

I am interested in what the statute they operate under says but also what the business model has actually become for most of them

WhiteBus might be able to give more info, but it's a mix of both. The smaller ones usually are sold on-site only as they don't produce enough to distribute, but I believe there are different classifications based on how much they produce, and the different classifications come with different sets of rules.

 

[WhiteBus]

As a non drinker I have a question. Are these breweries expected to sell their product to restaurants, bars and liquor stores as a wholesaler or are they operating as a retailer selling directly to consumers and for on site use?

Or is it a mix of both

I am interested in what the statute they operate under says but also what the business model has actually become for most of them

To be successful you need to do both.
They are a separate category under Liquor control laws. People that say they have buy a liquor license are factually clueless. Mind-boggling some of the comments on here.
They apply for and pay for a brewers license to legally brew and sell their own beer. A liquor license won't let them brew and sell their own product.

 

[tom1944]

To be successful you need to do both.
They are a separate category under Liquor control laws. People that say they have buy a liquor license are factually clueless. Mind-boggling some of the comments on here.
They apply for and pay for a brewers license to legally brew and sell their own beer. A liquor license won't let them brew and sell their own product.

So there was no restrictions on if the sales were retail (to me) or wholesale (to my favorite restaurant or liquor store)

It does appear the battle is about retail sales but only from restaurants. I do not think liquor stores are fighting the fact that the brewery might sell a case of their product instead of the guy buying the product at the liquor store

 

[WhiteBus]

So there was no restrictions on if the sales were retail (to me) or wholesale (to my favorite restaurant or liquor store)

It does appear the battle is about retail sales but only from restaurants. I do not think liquor stores are fighting the fact that the brewery might sell a case of their product instead of the guy buying the product at the liquor store

There is no restrictions of the volume sold. Each brewer at some point must decide if they will self distribute to liquor stores and bars or sign a contract with a wholesale company like High Grade, Kramer etc. If they do sign with a wholesaler then they can no longer distribute themselves.

 

[RUJohnny]

The breweries waded too far into the gray area. I was at Readington Brewery Sunday and you'd be pard pressed to distinguish it from a bar. 20 different kinds of beer and kombucha and hard seltzer so sure it's all one brand but it's the same amount of variety as a bar. People were getting GrubHub delivered to their picnic tables which was next to the Cornhole games. Big crowd consuming on site. Last year those dollars were being spent at a bar/restaurant.

You can lament the archaic laws we have but they are the current laws. ABC has made it clear they feel it's their purview to strike balance for all the various license holders. I don't agree that's their job, to interpret statute and fill in the gaps. But they do.

 

[RUJohnny]

So there was no restrictions on if the sales were retail (to me) or wholesale (to my favorite restaurant or liquor store)

It does appear the battle is about retail sales but only from restaurants. I do not think liquor stores are fighting the fact that the brewery might sell a case of their product instead of the guy buying the product at the liquor store

The battle is over on site consumption, and what should be allowable to entice the customer to the brewery for a few pints instead of the local pub.

 

[WhiteBus]

The breweries waded too far into the gray area. I was at Readington Brewery Sunday and you'd be pard pressed to distinguish it from a bar. 20 different kinds of beer and kombucha and hard seltzer so sure it's all one brand but it's the same amount of variety as a bar. People were getting GrubHub delivered to their picnic tables which was next to the Cornhole games. Big crowd consuming on site. Last year those dollars were being spent at a bar/restaurant.

You can lament the archaic laws we have but they are the current laws. ABC has made it clear they feel it's their purview to strike balance for all the various license holders. I don't agree that's their job, to interpret statute and fill in the gaps. But they do.

They aren't archaic laws. These are new laws. Making the NJ statutes on breweries even more crazy
Breweries dont sell hard alcohol or food. To compare them to a restaurant is crazy. They are extremely limited in what they can sell.

 

[tom1944]

The battle is over on site consumption, and what should be allowable to entice the customer to the brewery for a few pints instead of the local pub.

So the Westfield mayor is not worried about pushback from the downtown restaurants but maybe from the local bar.

I am not sure Westfield has any bars but Garwood does and the mayor does not care about bars in other towns

 

[jtung230]

The breweries waded too far into the gray area. I was at Readington Brewery Sunday and you'd be pard pressed to distinguish it from a bar. 20 different kinds of beer and kombucha and hard seltzer so sure it's all one brand but it's the same amount of variety as a bar. People were getting GrubHub delivered to their picnic tables which was next to the Cornhole games. Big crowd consuming on site. Last year those dollars were being spent at a bar/restaurant.

You can lament the archaic laws we have but they are the current laws. ABC has made it clear they feel it's their purview to strike balance for all the various license holders. I don't agree that's their job, to interpret statute and fill in the gaps. But they do.

This is what I suspected. Some bad actors ruining it for the others.

 

[jtung230]

So the Westfield mayor is not worried about pushback from the downtown restaurants but maybe from the local bar.

I am not sure Westfield has any bars but Garwood does and the mayor does not care about bars in other towns

Most of those restaurants in that area are BYOB.

 

[RUJohnny]

They aren't archaic laws. These are new laws. Making the NJ statutes on breweries even more crazy
Breweries dont sell hard alcohol or food. To compare them to a restaurant is crazy. They are extremely limited in what they can sell.

Im talking about the laws that make the consumption licenses so expensive which gives the NjLbA and NJRA their reasonable argument.

 

[WhiteBus]

This is what I suspected. Some bad actors ruining it for the others.

They didn't cross any lines or grey areas. That comment is not accurate.

 

[jtung230]

They didn't cross any lines or grey areas. That comment is not accurate.

I guess that’s your opinion. Others disagree. I also didn’t realize that breweries make hard seltzer now?

 

[WhiteBus]

I guess that’s your opinion. Others disagree. I also didn’t realize that breweries make hard seltzer now?

Its not an opinion. Name the law any of NJ Breweries broke.
Hard seltzers are a malt beverage. Been made by breweries for years. Budweiser bought SpikedSeltzer in 2016 and launched it nationally. Boston Beer, aka Sam Adams, made Truly soon after.

 

[RUJohnny]

Its not an opinion. Name the law any of NJ Breweries broke.
Hard seltzers are a malt beverage. Been made by breweries for years. Budweiser bought SpikedSeltzer in 2016 and launched it nationally. Boston Beer, aka Sam Adams, made Truly soon after.

You're reading is that if it's not in the statute, it's allowed. ABC reads it that if it's not in the statute, it's at ABCs discretion. If you're way is right then the class action suit should be coming soon.

 

[WhiteBus]

You're reading is that if it's not in the statute, it's allowed. ABC reads it that if it's not in the statute, it's at ABCs discretion. If you're way is right then the class action suit should be coming soon.

Isn't that true for every law and statute?? By omission it's allowed.

 

[Zak57]

You're reading is that if it's not in the statute, it's allowed. ABC reads it that if it's not in the statute, it's at ABCs discretion. If you're way is right then the class action suit should be coming soon.

How many weddings are at your winery a year? Are there any limits on wineries as they just put on breweries? If they were to put limits on that or other events I'm sure you would disagree with ABC. I think Hopewell Valley does live music every Friday and they sell pizza and some other stuff. Beneduce has live music. Why are wineries being treated as different than breweries when they are just selling their own product as well. Just some thoughts.

 

[RUJohnny]

Isn't that true for every law and statute?? By omission it's allowed.

I'm no lawyer but I would say there is a long history of ABC doing this kind of stuff. Probably because the statute created the license and gave ABC explicit authority to regulate. A license is now a law. Laws I'd argue aren't to be interpreted. Regs are.

 

[jtung230]

Its not an opinion. Name the law any of NJ Breweries broke.
Hard seltzers are a malt beverage. Been made by breweries for years. Budweiser bought SpikedSeltzer in 2016 and launched it nationally. Boston Beer, aka Sam Adams, made Truly soon after.

Isn’t hard seltzer just a mixed drink in a can?

 

[WhiteBus]

I'm no lawyer but I would say there is a long history of ABC doing this kind of stuff. Probably because the statute created the license and gave ABC explicit authority to regulate. A license is now a law. Laws I'd argue aren't to be interpreted. Regs are.

Either way the changes are meant to punish breweries. I don't think that is what any authority's job description is.
I haven't heard of any major violations of any brewers in NJ. They are being punished because they have become successful. Even during a pandemic.

 

[RUJohnny]

Wineries by

How many weddings are at your winery a year? Are there any limits on wineries as they just put on breweries? If they were to put limits on that or other events I'm sure you would disagree with ABC. I think Hopewell Valley does live music every Friday and they sell pizza and some other stuff. Beneduce has live music. Why are wineries being treated as different than breweries when they are just selling their own product as well. Just some thoughts.

Wineries by license in NJ must be farms. A minimum of three acres has to be to be farmed. Therefore wineries enjoy federal right to farm protections which includes events to help market and sell the farm product.

And ethically we have a case for being given a competitive leg up because the acreage requirement keeps wineries out of commercial downtowns. Breweries (and restaurants) have access to main street. Wineries do not.

I host about 10 weddings a year. My winery would have no problems operating under the restrictions just put onto the breweries.

 

[WhiteBus]

Isn’t hard seltzer just a mixed drink in a can?

No. It's a malt beverage with flavors and carbonation added. It is brewed. Not distilled.
Think Mike's Hard Lemonade, Twisted Tea. The first being Zima

 

[jtung230]

No. It's a malt beverage with flavors and carbonation added. It is brewed. Not distilled.

Learn something new today.

 

[WhiteBus]

Learn something new today.

As I added above. Mike's Hard, Twisted Tea... malt beverages

 

[RUJohnny]

Either way the changes are meant to punish breweries. I don't think that is what any authority's job description is.
I haven't heard of any major violations of any brewers in NJ. They are being punished because they have become successful. Even during a pandemic.

Well ABC does. I'll give you an example. You might know the allowance for wineries to put their wines into unlicensed locations, usually byob restaurants. Well I went after grocers. I got approvals for three specialty/organic themed health food stores but got declined to put my wines into a ShopRite. Reason?
"The ShopRite application isn't in the spirit of the law, it's not what the program was designed to do."

I totally get your point. I'm just pointing out that abc has long acted as referee between liquor interests.

 

[RUJohnny]

Well ABC does. I'll give you an example. You might know the allowance for wineries to put their wines into unlicensed locations, usually byob restaurants. Well I went after grocers. I got approvals for three specialty/organic themed health food stores but got declined to put my wines into a ShopRite. Reason?
"The ShopRite application isn't in the spirit of the law, it's not what the program was designed to do."

I totally get your point. I'm just pointing out that abc has long acted as referee between liquor interests.

The only real difference of course was square footage.

 

[wheezer]

I wonder if there is much oversight to the brewery “tours”
The place could make it a five minute thing if no regulation

ghost hawk brewery is right across the street from Rutts hut hot dog place, makes for a nice combo in Clifton

 

[Zak57]

Wineries by

Wineries by license in NJ must be farms. A minimum of three acres has to be to be farmed. Therefore wineries enjoy federal right to farm protections which includes events to help market and sell the farm product.

And ethically we have a case for being given a competitive leg up because the acreage requirement keeps wineries out of commercial downtowns. Breweries (and restaurants) have access to main street. Wineries do not.

I host about 10 weddings a year. My winery would have no problems operating under the restrictions just put onto the breweries.

Any time there is live music it is considered an event so some others would have trouble.

 

[WhiteBus]

Well ABC does. I'll give you an example. You might know the allowance for wineries to put their wines into unlicensed locations, usually byob restaurants. Well I went after grocers. I got approvals for three specialty/organic themed health food stores but got declined to put my wines into a ShopRite. Reason?
"The ShopRite application isn't in the spirit of the law, it's not what the program was designed to do."

I totally get your point. I'm just pointing out that abc has long acted as referee between liquor interests.

You mean they always protect restaurants above all else.

 

[WhiteBus]

Any time there is live music it is considered an event so some others would have trouble.

As I read it if a family has a birthday party for someone it's an "event".

 

[jtung230]

You mean they always protect restaurants above all else.

This is where you’re missing the point. They are protecting the value of the liquor license.

 

[WhiteBus]

This is where you’re missing the point. They are protecting the value of the liquor license.

I'm not missing the point. You are! A restaurant and a brewery are two totaly different businesses. Breweries have been playing by the rules. It is not their job to prop up one business and destroy others.

 

[NotInRHouse]

This is certain to derail this thread, but:

I don't think anyone here advocated for allowing anyone to open a bar in their garage. The closest I saw was T2K advocating that the state get out of the alcohol regulation business and leave it up to towns.

Regarding cannibas, my objections are twofold. (1) There are no reliable tests or proxies for someone driving under the influence of cannibas, while there is an easily administered test to measure blood alcohol concentration, which is a reasonable proxy to determine is someone is driving under the influence of alcohol. (2) Same as my objection to cigarette smoking, I don't like having to walk through a cloud of smoke because someone has been smoking pot nearby, and the smell lingers long after the smoker has left the area. This second objection obviously doesn't apply to edibles.

If someone comes up with a reasonably reliable test for driving under the influence of cannibas, and smoking (tobacco/cannibas/vaping) is banned in all outdoor areas and all public indoor areas, then I don't really have an objection.

If you look at the states where it's been legal before here, as well as Canada, it hasn't really been the issue made out to be. The effects of cannabis will probably lead someone to drive more alertly than alcohol.

I am all for the state getting out of alcohol. NJ recently passed a bill saying towns can designate areas for public consumption. Funny I haven't seen him lobby for that one by him...

 

[RUJohnny]

You mean they always protect restaurants above all else.

In this example they were protecting liquor stores.

 

[LETSGORU91]

I wonder if there is much oversight to the brewery “tours”
The place could make it a five minute thing if no regulation

ghost hawk brewery is right across the street from Rutts hut hot dog place, makes for a nice combo in Clifton

I wonder as well. A certain NJ, brewery used to diligently log people's names as they took the tour while another one said, "open the door and look at the equipment. You just finished the self tour". Bonus points if anyone can identify the breweries I am referring to.

 

[Rutgers Chris]

I wonder as well. A certain NJ, brewery used to diligently log people's names as they took the tour while another one said, "open the door and look at the equipment. You just finished the self tour". Bonus points if anyone can identify the breweries I am referring to.

I was in one this weekend that had a sign at the door notifying you of the required tour. No one was taking tours. Everyone was eating food from one of 4-5 nearby spots, I’m sure they are happy.

 

[Knightmoves]

I wonder as well. A certain NJ, brewery used to diligently log people's names as they took the tour while another one said, "open the door and look at the equipment. You just finished the self tour". Bonus points if anyone can identify the breweries I am referring to.

Rick Reed at Cricket Hill in Fairfield has been brewing in NJ since 2001. His tour can be a comedy act.

” Coors Light is the most expensive water in New Jersey”

” I don’t care how much Coors you drink, you’re not gonna get laid by twins”

 

[Zak57]

I wonder as well. A certain NJ, brewery used to diligently log people's names as they took the tour while another one said, "open the door and look at the equipment. You just finished the self tour". Bonus points if anyone can identify the breweries I am referring to.

I like the ones that just have the laminated cards of the brewing process and that's the tour.

 

[ClassOf02]

I wonder as well. A certain NJ, brewery used to diligently log people's names as they took the tour while another one said, "open the door and look at the equipment. You just finished the self tour". Bonus points if anyone can identify the breweries I am referring to.

I went to one (won’t say which) where the “tour” was to scroll through a few slides in a Viewfinder (the kid toy).