OT - NJTransit cluster-f@@@@

[RU4Real]

the only thing worse than NJ Transit is sitting in traffic on the I-78 Extension or the Parkway at 8am and KNOWING you will be an hour late for work, an hour prior to your start time. You cant do a damn thing about it besides creep up a few inches every 15 minutes. Did that daily driving to Jersey City and it was awful. Been taking the train from Cranford to NYC Penn Station since January and it hasn't been nearly as stressful, besides the overpacked trains leaving Newark at 7:55 AM

You can't commute to Manhattan and expect 9-5 hours. Whenever I have to work in the city I make sure that my schedule puts me on the ground there no later than 0730. Anyone on the Newark Bay Extension at 0800 is just asking for misery. At 0630 you can cover that piece of road at 90 mph.

 

[Upstream]

Here's a NY Times article from last October on the problems with NJ Transit. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/14/nyregion/new-jersey-transit-crisis.html

In summary, the problems are due to lack of funding and investment into infrastructure, poor executive management (exacerbated by stupid NJ laws which prevent NJ Transit from hiring the best executives if they live out of state), and too many riders overburdening a system designed for lower ridership.

The article provides some stark comparisons of NJ Transit today vs NJ Transit of 10-20 years ago, and also comparisons with Metro North and LIRR.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

the whole thing is horribly outdated.

We may never have a modern system like they do in Europe and Asia, and that is a damn shame.

 

[Rokodesh]

You can't commute to Manhattan and expect 9-5 hours. Whenever I have to work in the city I make sure that my schedule puts me on the ground there no later than 0730. Anyone on the Newark Bay Extension at 0800 is just asking for misery. At 0630 you can cover that piece of road at 90 mph.

I'll be happy if I get home by 830. 9-5 doesn't exist in this area lol

 

[RU4Real]

the whole thing is horribly outdated.

We may never have a modern system like they do in Europe and Asia, and that is a damn shame.

Europe isn't like the U.S. in terms of the population densities. The high speed rail lines leave the cities and pass, for the most part, through miles of not a whole hell of a lot. There is no European equivalent to the northeast corridor. There are curves in the Amtrak right-of-way between D.C. and Boston that would have to be straightened to allow 200 mph trains. It's why the Acela is such a wimp. Straightening those curves would require eminent domain proceedings that would add up to hundreds of billions of dollars in acquisition costs and legal fees.

New Jersey Transit suffers much the same illness by association. Amtrak owns the NEC right-of-way and they own the Penn infrastructure. Any failure of that infrastructure that causes reduced capacity comes out of NJT's end first, before it affects Amtrak. Anyone who has ridden the train north of the NEC-NECL merge knows what it means to be shunted to a siding and sit there "waiting for an Amtrak to pass". The only thing that solves that problem is to segregate the capacity and New Jersey can't afford the bill.

 

[RU4Real]

I'll be happy if I get home by 830. 9-5 doesn't exist in this area lol

No, but 7:30-3:30 does. I've done a LOT of that. And my round-trip commute time around those hours is generally about 2 1/2.

 

[RUskoolie]

I commute to Manhattan from NJ everyday. 7-7 guy checking in. Can't imagine doing this in my 50s and feel bad for those that do. Will be out in 10 years.

 

[RUfinal4]

I commute to Manhattan from NJ everyday. 7-7 guy checking in. Can't imagine doing this in my 50s and feel bad for those that do. Will be out in 10 years.

Sometimes it is beyond your control. I seem to go back and forth between suburban NJ locations and city locations. A lot depends on the companies. In the 90s many were branching out into the burbs since space was cheaper than the city. Whenever tougher times come and layoffs happen the companies seem to shut down the suburban offices and co-locate everyone back in the city offices.

Many startups like having a NYC address although they may have many employees who never talk to clients or need to be in high priced real estate.

HR managers also like to look at the employee populations, especially management. If there are employees / managers from LI, NJ, and Westchester / CT then they prefer NYC locations over Jersey City or suburban locations since some employees will be inconvenienced.

 

[76Scarlet]

How many trillions in debt is enough for you to hand to your kids and the younger generations?

So what's your solution? Have them live in crumbling infrastructure?!?

 

[Abro1975]

Amtrak owns the Northeast corridor including the 2 Old RR tunnels between NJ and PENN ST NYC.

funding for improvements always a political football.

 

[RuSnp]

Europe isn't like the U.S. in terms of the population densities. The high speed rail lines leave the cities and pass, for the most part, through miles of not a whole hell of a lot. There is no European equivalent to the northeast corridor. There are curves in the Amtrak right-of-way between D.C. and Boston that would have to be straightened to allow 200 mph trains. It's why the Acela is such a wimp. Straightening those curves would require eminent domain proceedings that would add up to hundreds of billions of dollars in acquisition costs and legal fees.

New Jersey Transit suffers much the same illness by association. Amtrak owns the NEC right-of-way and they own the Penn infrastructure. Any failure of that infrastructure that causes reduced capacity comes out of NJT's end first, before it affects Amtrak. Anyone who has ridden the train north of the NEC-NECL merge knows what it means to be shunted to a siding and sit there "waiting for an Amtrak to pass". The only thing that solves that problem is to segregate the capacity and New Jersey can't afford the bill.

This. If you can't make the train fast just name it something that sounds fast. Problem solved.

 

[late knight]

Seastreak Ferry. It's expensive but worth it and every train derailment increases my property value a little more.

 

[RUScrew85]

So what's your solution? Have them live in crumbling infrastructure?!?

How about you let them decide AFTER you pay off the $20T bill you're planning on handing them for your spending to date.

 

[RJM_Go_RU]

NJ transit is really bad. I used Midtown direct line in the 1990's and 2000's. Delays were frequent. Trains crowded. Ride was bumpy. And it was expensive.

They should see if they can privatize this thing. With the right leader (Elon Musk?) maybe they could turn it around. But this is NJ so that won't happen. Unions entrenched.

Also the whole situation with Amtrack controlling the tunnels and getting priority is ridiculous.

Given the volume and importance to regional economy, there should be at least 6 tunnels for trains underneath the Hudson and not two. I understand they are building two more, but after they come on line the other two will be down for ten years for Sandy repairs. So it will be about 20 years before get to 4 operational tunnels.

And Penn Station is a dump- smelly, crowded, low ceilings. They can lay as many marble tiles as they want but it will always be a dump, a dungeon. Many fond memories of waiting in a crowd of hundreds for platform for a delayed train to be posted, and then the mad dash down narrow staircases to squeeze into a seat, so you don't have to stand on the trip home. All after a long stressful day at work.

All the trillions the Federal and state government spends / this should have been accomplished decades ago. A failure of leadership.

 

[Upstream]

They should see if they can privatize this thing.

You know that originally this thing was privatized. The companies went out of business.

 

[rutgersal]

Oh sweet jesus, here we go again. If he hadn't cancelled it, NJ would be on the hook for BILLIONS of dollars once this project went over budget, which it surely would have.

So what. Any project this complex is going to be billions of dollars over budget due to its complexity. And at the end of the day, NJ would have had a tangible asset which would have made commutting lives easier for our states best earners. Now we have nothing to show for the billions of dollars spent and the need is more acute than ever.

Christie not only cancelled the project, no steps were taken to solve the problem. Taking the money that was supposed to be for this project and spending it on the Pulaski skyway was just flat wrong. 8 years of zero mass transit progress that the state could ill afford. This was a political decision, as he was planning to run for higher office.

This project is ultimately get done, hopefully by 2030, but it's benefits are going to be shared with Amtrak.

 

[76Scarlet]

How about you let them decide AFTER you pay off the $20T bill you're planning on handing them for your spending to date.

Yeah, by that time it will be $60T. Keep kicking the can down the road.

 

[DirtyRU]

I know it's impossible to have public transportation everywhere, but I really wish I didn't have to drive half an hour to the nearest train station (I'm down in Gloucester County). I wish public transit was more readily available. I loved living in Easton Ave Apartments and jumping on the train at any time to go to Philly or NYC.

Phila- Do you commute to Philly? I'm Mullica Hill to Ferry Ave. Patco 4x per week. And I agree. 30 minutes to the station. Wish it wasn't the case esp. since Patco certainly has its share of issues.

 

[PhilaPhans]

I know it's impossible to have public transportation everywhere, but I really wish I didn't have to drive half an hour to the nearest train station (I'm down in Gloucester County). I wish public transit was more readily available. I loved living in Easton Ave Apartments and jumping on the train at any time to go to Philly or NYC.

Phila- Do you commute to Philly? I'm Mullica Hill to Ferry Ave. Patco 4x per week. And I agree. 30 minutes to the station. Wish it wasn't the case esp. since Patco certainly has its share of issues.

I either have a quick 15 minute drive across the Commodore Barry or an hour drive up to Trenton to my current offices. I'm near the ShopRite in Gibbstown so it's easy on easy off of 295 for me.

I just hate the turnpike drive up to Rutgers or NYC if I wanted to visit. Only benefit is how close I am to the Philly airport for longer trips.

 

[DirtyRU]

I either have a quick 15 minute drive across the Commodore Barry or an hour drive up to Trenton to my current offices. I'm near the ShopRite in Gibbstown so it's easy on easy off of 295 for me.

I just hate the turnpike drive up to Rutgers or NYC if I wanted to visit. Only benefit is how close I am to the Philly airport for longer trips.

Ahhh yes, you've got great access to 295. Are you near the Nothnagle log cabin? Most people don't know that one of the oldest residential homes in the US is right there in little ol' Gibbstown, New Jersey.

Re: the trip up, yeah I hear ya. I get on at exit 2 (NJTPK) and it can be hellish, which is why I usually sell at least 4 games from my season seats every year preseason. Just can't swing the trip up, esp. night games.

 

[RJM_Go_RU]

You know that originally this thing was privatized. The companies went out of business.

That was a long time ago. Time to give it another try I say. If the thing goes bankrupt again, we can always have state swoop in and acquire out of bankruptcy like the last time for pennies on the dollar and then look forward to another 50 years of government mismanagement. What do we have to lose?

 

[jtung230]

Oh sweet jesus, here we go again. If he hadn't cancelled it, NJ would be on the hook for BILLIONS of dollars once this project went over budget, which it surely would have.

Yes, much better to waste money on a failed mall.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

While fixing things quicker and building more fault tolerant systems is always possible, the person that mentioned if there were an spare rail line available it would already be in use daily is correct.

What you are seeing here is a system that is stressed at maximum capacity. It is because they do such a good job on a daily basis moving millions of people that problems affect millions of people. If they chose to run at 80% of capacity daily then the problems would be less disastrous.

And if they built extra capacity now, as the previous poster indicated, then we'd get stories about not enough parking and too expensive parking at train stations. And then that capacity would be used 100% and we'd be right back here. That is not an argument against building more capacity... just saying the problem you see now would resurface.. and be worse in many ways.

They probably need more lines that work independently.. expand the shore line, don't merge it with NE corridor.. send it through Staten Island and through its own tunnels to lower Manhattan. Do that ARC thing.. but make NYC (or Mexico) pay for it.

Think BIG.

Buses as backup are not the answer... working from home is a better option in multi-day events. The bus system is stressed to capacity as well.. we just don't pay for backup systems.. the inventory and drivers are working 100%.

 

[rurichdog]

So what. Any project this complex is going to be billions of dollars over budget due to its complexity. And at the end of the day, NJ would have had a tangible asset which would have made commutting lives easier for our states best earners. Now we have nothing to show for the billions of dollars spent and the need is more acute than ever.

Christie not only cancelled the project, no steps were taken to solve the problem. Taking the money that was supposed to be for this project and spending it on the Pulaski skyway was just flat wrong. 8 years of zero mass transit progress that the state could ill afford. This was a political decision, as he was planning to run for higher office.

This project is ultimately get done, hopefully by 2030, but it's benefits are going to be shared with Amtrak.

Hopefully by 2030? And who cares about overages? *belly laugh*
Long Island Railroad's "East Side Access" Project is currently 150% over original cost estimates, currently 14 YEARS behind schedule, and is not slated to open for another 8 years at minimum. For a 6 mile line where the tunnel under the river already existed since the 1960's.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

So what. Any project this complex is going to be billions of dollars over budget due to its complexity. And at the end of the day, NJ would have had a tangible asset which would have made commuting lives easier for our states best earners.

Bergen County pricks already have commuter options and they get plenty of the states tax dollars sent their way. Why line the pockets of landholders and developers up there? Bring service to wider swaths of land in central and south jersey and the shore.

 

[RUnTeX]

Ahhh yes, you've got great access to 295. Are you near the Nothnagle log cabin? Most people don't know that one of the oldest residential homes in the US is right there in little ol' Gibbstown, New Jersey.

Re: the trip up, yeah I hear ya. I get on at exit 2 (NJTPK) and it can be hellish, which is why I usually sell at least 4 games from my season seats every year preseason. Just can't swing the trip up, esp. night games.

I don't find the NJ Tpk to be that bad heading up to and back from NB, especially nowadays after the expansion between Exit 6 and 8A....wish I could get on only at Exit 2. By that time I've been on the road for about an hour and a half coming up from central Maryland.

 

[DirtyRU]

I don't find the NJ Tpk to be that bad heading up to and back from NB, especially nowadays after the expansion between Exit 6 and 8A....wish I could get on only at Exit 2. By that time I've been on the road for about an hour and a half coming up from central Maryland.

Yeah I hear ya, things have certainly improved since the expansion. And yes considering you're way down in central MD, I can see why Exit 2 would be a dream, ha!

 

[RC1991]

Having moved to the Seattle area a little over a year ago I can say that mass transit out here makes NJ Transit look like the bullet trains in Japan....and I get the issues back there having commuted into Manhattan for a number of years from Metropark. Here they are reliant mostly on buses and just passed a ridiculous $54 billion transit initiative that will install light rail and some additional regional rail which won't be ready for 25 years to some places....and it still doesn't serve a good deal of the population. Agree though that cancelling the tunnel project out there set NJT back quite a bit though.

 

[gmay8]

Seastreak Ferry. It's expensive but worth it and every train derailment increases my property value a little more.

SHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't tell them our secret! I moved down to Monmouth County, from Hoboken when looking for houses solely for the reason that I'd never need to take NJ Transit. Luckily my office is in downtown NYC and Seastreak works perfectly dropping me 100 yards from my building...

however, Seastreak has been getting much more crowded even in the past 18 months that I've been taking it, and all of the regulars who have been taking it for years are getting annoyed.

 

[MozRU]

the whole thing is horribly outdated.

We may never have a modern system like they do in Europe and Asia, and that is a damn shame.

...because we don't believe in socialism. Give it another generation.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Yes, much better to waste money on a failed mall.

Sorry, but you can't lay that at the feet of Christie - it got started way before he got in office. Blame McGreevy, Codey and Corzine for that.

 

[DJ Spanky]

...because we don't believe in socialism. Give it another generation.

"Hi! We're from the government, and we're here to help."

 

[RU_Planning]

While fixing things quicker and building more fault tolerant systems is always possible, the person that mentioned if there were an spare rail line available it would already be in use daily is correct.

What you are seeing here is a system that is stressed at maximum capacity. It is because they do such a good job on a daily basis moving millions of people that problems affect millions of people. If they chose to run at 80% of capacity daily then the problems would be less disastrous.

And if they built extra capacity now, as the previous poster indicated, then we'd get stories about not enough parking and too expensive parking at train stations. And then that capacity would be used 100% and we'd be right back here. That is not an argument against building more capacity... just saying the problem you see now would resurface.. and be worse in many ways.

They probably need more lines that work independently.. expand the shore line, don't merge it with NE corridor.. send it through Staten Island and through its own tunnels to lower Manhattan. Do that ARC thing.. but make NYC (or Mexico) pay for it.

Think BIG.

Buses as backup are not the answer... working from home is a better option in multi-day events. The bus system is stressed to capacity as well.. we just don't pay for backup systems.. the inventory and drivers are working 100%.

You make some good and interesting points, however would would compel NYC to pay for NJ Transit capacity improvements?

 

[RU_Planning]

That was a long time ago. Time to give it another try I say. If the thing goes bankrupt again, we can always have state swoop in and acquire out of bankruptcy like the last time for pennies on the dollar and then look forward to another 50 years of government mismanagement. What do we have to lose?

The poor recent track record of privatization of transportation (parking, tolls, highways, etc.) has been disastrous for municipalities and States. The private sector is not going to agree to anything unless they are well protected on the downside at a significant cost to the tax payer.

There would never be the State swooping in and getting control back at pennies on the dollar, would never be structured to allow for that.

 

[MozRU]

I tell you what, the Boston rail and subway system makes the NJT, NY Subway and MetroN look like the most modern train systems in the universe.


I am no snob, but I won't waste my lift on the slow systems up here. they are that bad. I miss the tri-state area metro system. I dive everyone now

 

[rutgersal]

Hopefully by 2030? And who cares about overages? *belly laugh*
Long Island Railroad's "East Side Access" Project is currently 150% over original cost estimates, currently 14 YEARS behind schedule, and is not slated to open for another 8 years at minimum. For a 6 mile line where the tunnel under the river already existed since the 1960's.

One way or another its going to be built. And no matter what they do, there are going to be overages, because there are so many unknowns, so its nearly impossible to estimate all the costs of a complex project like this. Its is the responsibility of the project managers to minimize the overages, but they are going to happen. this is the instance where you hold your nose and get it done. Not say "the commuters to NYC from NJ can go F***K themselves", which is essentially what Chris Christie did when he cancelled Access to the Regions Core. I'm counting on the next democratic governor of NJ to get this done.

The 2nd Avenue subway finally got done, the 7th avenue subay to 11 street near Jacob Javitz got done. There's no reasons why there isn't a second parallel tunnel to NYC, and the only reason is politics. This is critical, not an option.

 

[DJ Spanky]

I saw this quoted in one of RU_Planning's responses, so wanted to highlight it:

They probably need more lines that work independently.. expand the shore line, don't merge it with NE corridor.. send it through Staten Island and through its own tunnels to lower Manhattan.

This is a huge, huge point that is ignored. The problem with merging all of these lines is that you create a single point of failure, which is made even more fragile by merging everything into it. Doing that is the easy way out - less money, less of a political fight. This is where you need politicians with vision and balls.

 

[megadrone]

You know that originally this thing was privatized. The companies went out of business.

Passenger rail has never been, and never will be, profitable. To make the system usable you have to run a lot of empty service to accommodate people who normally travel in rush hour but occasionally have to travel at other times. As someone else cited, any private company that provided passenger service folded. You have to offer freight service to make money. So the service has to be public to exist, and the public certainly needs local commuter rail to exist. You could possibly make a different case for long distance rail, where you could possibly run freight to offset the cost of passenger rail, but that all went bankrupt by 1975.

If it wasn't subsidized by tax revenue, it would most likely be unaffordable. Another reason why we won't have the European system here -- we can barely support what we have now.

 

[DevilDawg]

SHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't tell them our secret! I moved down to Monmouth County, from Hoboken when looking for houses solely for the reason that I'd never need to take NJ Transit. Luckily my office is in downtown NYC and Seastreak works perfectly dropping me 100 yards from my building...

however, Seastreak has been getting much more crowded even in the past 18 months that I've been taking it, and all of the regulars who have been taking it for years are getting annoyed.

Same here. I live in Middletown and have been taking NY Waterway from Belford the last seven years or so. It is really getting popular. Many "newbies" I talk to started taking the ferry one day after a NJT debacle and said they are never going back.

 

[megadrone]

I saw this quoted in one of RU_Planning's responses, so wanted to highlight it:

This is a huge, huge point that is ignored. The problem with merging all of these lines is that you create a single point of failure, which is made even more fragile by merging everything into it. Doing that is the easy way out - less money, less of a political fight. This is where you need politicians with vision and balls.

Yes but then you also have the problem of not being able to connect the rail lines -- which is why it took until 2003 to have almost all of the rail lines offer connecting service. For my son commuting to Rutgers from Fair Lawn, it's essential.