OT: Washington's new knickname?

[Doctor Worm]

Can someone please tell me what changing a team's nickname or tearing down statues helps solve a single problem?

I think you're asking the wrong question. You're asking "Why?" I suggest we should be asking "Why not?" Why not change the Redskins name? Consider the following:

• The term is offensive. That is not an opinion. I checked three online dictionaries and each defines it as such.
• The US Patent Office has refused to grant trademarks or patents using the word, calling it a "derogatory slang term".
• If your kid used the word on the playground, it would be bullying.
• If you used the word in the office, it would be harassment.
• If you used the word in the commission of a crime, it would be considered a hate crime.

Why are we even having the debate?

 

[e5fdny]

I think you're asking the wrong question. You're asking "Why?" I suggest we should be asking "Why not?" Why not change the Redskins name? Consider the following:

• The term is offensive. That is not an opinion. I checked three online dictionaries and each defines it as such.
• The US Patent Office has refused to grant trademarks or patents using the word, calling it a "derogatory slang term".
• If your kid used the word on the playground, it would be bullying.
• If you used the word in the office, it would be harassment.
• If you used the word in the commission of a crime, it would be considered a hate crime.

Why are we even having the debate?

You didn’t answer the question.

If you have followed what @colbert17 has said throughout the thread he is really asking more of big question answer here and not just the micro Redskins name part.

 

[rimsky]

The Washington SQUAD in honor of the new leaders of the Democrat Party.

 

[Doctor Worm]

You didn’t answer the question.

If you have followed what @colbert17 has said throughout the thread he is really asking more of big question answer here and not just the micro Redskins name part.

OK let me try this.

Statues, mascots, team names - they are all SYMBOLS. What is the immediate, direct impact of doing away with symbols that we as a society define as obscene (in the asexual sense)? Probably not much. I mean, they're freakin' SYMBOLS. Symbolic. As in not substantive.

But symbols do matter. Before every athletic event, we stand and sing a hymn to a symbol which we call the American flag. The American flag is an honorable symbol which is worthy of our reverence. The swastika is a dishonorable symbol which is unworthy of our reverence. The Confederate battle flag is now similarly societally viewed. Yay! Take 'em down, and keep 'em down! Same with their statues.

Other symbols? Can't give you a blanket answer. Depends on the symbol.

 

[RUsince52]

As I recall, the mascot was a Trojan looking white guy. So, not sure why they would change it, but who the hell knows. It would be funny if they changed it because the guy is NOT Native American.

Nice. A third point of view. I think he is like a Spartan type figure.

 

[mdh2003]

Nice. A third point of view. I think he is like a Spartan type figure.

Are you talking about the Cretins at Sparta or the Spartans at Crete?

 

[e5fdny]

Other symbols? Can't give you a blanket answer. Depends on the symbol.

How about these examples @colbert17 gave earlier in the thread...

But tearing down statues of Lincoln, Frederick Douglas or defacing the monument to the 54th Massachusetts, that makes some one feel better?

 

[RUAZ]

"Quantitative Easers" and if that won't fit on jersey "Money Printers"

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

OK let me try this.

Statues, mascots, team names - they are all SYMBOLS. What is the immediate, direct impact of doing away with symbols that we as a society define as obscene (in the asexual sense)? Probably not much. I mean, they're freakin' SYMBOLS. Symbolic. As in not substantive.

But symbols do matter. Before every athletic event, we stand and sing a hymn to a symbol which we call the American flag. The American flag is an honorable symbol which is worthy of our reverence. The swastika is a dishonorable symbol which is unworthy of our reverence. The Confederate battle flag is now similarly societally viewed. Yay! Take 'em down, and keep 'em down! Same with their statues.

Other symbols? Can't give you a blanket answer. Depends on the symbol.

It is kinda funny that the people who want a revolution now.. a defeat of the established government.. are against a people who did the same thing in 1860. Something like 25% of southerners had slaves. 25%. That means the majority of people who fought for the Confederacy were NOT slave-holders.

As recently as 2017 the liberal rag The New Republic called for blue state secession.. but now every Confederate was a traitor.

 

[kapyoche]

Washington Beltways

 

[colbert17]

Isn't it a little ironic that the people involved in these protests, of all colors, are offended by statutes, nicknames and monuments are also offended if you express the idea that All Lives Matter?

 

[colbert17]

My idea for a new nickname.
The Washington Hypocrites. That can mean whatever you want depending on your point of view.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

My idea for a new nickname.
The Washington Hypocrites. That can mean whatever you want depending on your point of view.

The DC Swamp
(as nothing can defeat The Swamp)

Or the DC Witchhunters

 

[Doctor Worm]

How about these examples @colbert17 gave earlier in the thread...

Last response, then I'm out.

I assume you are referring to this 19th Century Lincoln statue in Boston, which has been considered controversial for decades:

The humbled black man kneeling before the Great White Father. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time. Its time has passed. Take it down. As I said, it's just a symbol - but it's a symbol which no longer reflects our shared values.

Re the other two examples you cite, as far as I can tell that was just plain vandalism. Not the first time African-American statues have been vandalized and I am sure it won't be the last. I don't think anyone is seriously calling for their removal.

 

[yesrutgers01]

The Redskin name and the Chief Wahoo emblem for the Indians are bad. Again, surprised they lasted as long as they did.

But the others? Not sure what the deal is there.

I agree with this. Redskins and Chief Wahoo is bad...The other names seem respectful

 

[Westcoast]

The "Indians" are not monolithic. They were many warring tribes who killed and enslaved each other and stole each others land and murdered off whole tribes when useful throughout history. The tribes that lost to the US stole the land from earlier tribes in thousands of years of bloody battles. They were not a monolithic entity that lived there for 10,000 years. They were warring nomads who never invented the wheel. While their lives are not great now they are infinitely better than they were 500 years ago.

Wow. I get some people aren't woke and probably will never be. But it doesn't mean you have to be brain dead either. Existing somewhere in between woke and brain dead would probably result in a better response than the one above.

 

[yesrutgers01]

The amount of natives who give a **** is even lower. Its white woke warriors

You are right. American Football isn't high on their list of worries. Go figure. But it doesn't make it any less disrespectful.

 

[Westcoast]

So this is about hurting someone's feelings? That's it?
Again what does any of this accomplish? What does the fact that Andrew Jackson, George Washington or Thomas Jefferson owned slaves have to due with racial injustice today? You want to have a debate about Confederate monuments, OK fair enough. That's about people who denounced this country.
But tearing down statues of Lincoln, Frederick Douglas or defacing the monument to the 54th Massachusetts, that makes some one feel better?

Pretend for a moment that you are Jewish and your grandparents died at the Dachau concentration camp and you're living in Munich and the town council decides to erect a statue of Adolph Hitler outside city hall on behalf of all the brave Nazis who died in WWII fighting for the Fatherland. You'd be fine with this knowing your tax dollars paid for it?

 

[Westcoast]

Isn't it a little ironic that the people involved in these protests, of all colors, are offended by statutes, nicknames and monuments are also offended if you express the idea that All Lives Matter?

You just need a bit of woke-ness to understand. No one has any problem with the idea that all lives matter. The problem is that line is being used very specifically by those who oppose the concept that black lives matter. If they truly believed Black Lives Matter, they wouldn't be seen counter-protesting the BLM movement. They would join in.

 

[yesrutgers01]

You just need a bit of woke-ness to understand. No one has any problem with the idea that all lives matter. The problem is that line is being used very specifically by those who oppose the concept that black lives matter. If they truly believed Black Lives Matter, they wouldn't be seen counter-protesting the BLM movement. They would join in.

I always say that if a person has a problem with BLM, then they have no right to claim ALM. When someone retorts BLM with ALM , they they are directly dismissing the concerns of blacks and flipping the finger at them.

 

[e5fdny]

You just need a bit of woke-ness to understand. No one has any problem with the idea that all lives matter. The problem is that line is being used very specifically by those who oppose the concept that black lives matter. If they truly believed Black Lives Matter, they wouldn't be seen counter-protesting the BLM movement. They would join in.

I always say that if a person has a problem with BLM, then they have no right to claim ALM. When someone retorts BLM with ALM , they they are directly dismissing the concerns of blacks and flipping the finger at them.

I think people are speaking more about the organization itself than the phrase.

And I agree if you’re against the phrase, black lives matter than how can you say all lives matter?

 

[e5fdny]

Pretend for a moment that you are Jewish and your grandparents died at the Dachau concentration camp and you're living in Munich and the town council decides to erect a statue of Adolph Hitler outside city hall on behalf of all the brave Nazis who died in WWII fighting for the Fatherland. You'd be fine with this knowing your tax dollars paid for it?

Some statues at Gettysburg I believe were erected thru fundraising efforts.

But in your example I would be the first German to sign the petition to have it removed. I might even go the rally to try and do the same. But I wouldn’t be on the rope to pull it down.

Also, if were going with your example over here I’d be a great-great-great-great grandkid.

 

[e5fdny]

Last response, then I'm out.

I assume you are referring to this 19th Century Lincoln statue in Boston, which has been considered controversial for decades:

The humbled black man kneeling before the Great White Father. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time. Its time has passed. Take it down. As I said, it's just a symbol - but it's a symbol which no longer reflects our shared values.

Re the other two examples you cite, as far as I can tell that was just plain vandalism. Not the first time African-American statues have been vandalized and I am sure it won't be the last. I don't think anyone is seriously calling for their removal.

I don’t know what Lincoln statue @colbert17 was talking about. You’ll have to ask him.

I thought he meant the one funded by former slaves in DC.

And the Frederick Douglas one was removed just like a few of the others were too, vandalized yes. But a message was sent too.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Some statues at Gettysburg I believe were erected thru fundraising efforts.

But in you example I would be the first German to sign the petition to have it removed. I might even go the rally to try and do the same. But I wouldn’t be on the rope pull it down.

Also, if were going with your example over here I’d be a great-great-great-great grandkid.

I personally believe that at a place like Gettysburg, that IS where statues of Confederate Generals belong. Because there, it is part of the history. But should they have a statue anywhere else besides museums or historical sites? Hell no.
Same with Presidents- so many of them were slave owners but just about any man of wealth and land back then was. So, it is really much more about how those particular men treated their slaves and their public demeanor toward them. But, they were Presidents, so, they still always deserve statues.
Why anyone is going against Lincoln, Davis??? But, there are so many individuals that are using this sad situation to try to make a statement. And amazing thing is- it seems that some white person is the one who is really pushing it.
Columbus, my apologies to all of my wonderful Italian friends and 1/2 of my heritage...That F-ing man deserves nothing.Pure evil human being

 

[T2Kplus10]

I personally believe that at a place like Gettysburg, that IS where statues of Confederate Generals belong. Because there, it is part of the history. But should they have a statue anywhere else besides museums or historical sites? Hell no.
Same with Presidents- so many of them were slave owners but just about any man of wealth and land back then was. So, it is really much more about how those particular men treated their slaves and their public demeanor toward them. But, they were Presidents, so, they still always deserve statues.
Why anyone is going against Lincoln, Davis??? But, there are so many individuals that are using this sad situation to try to make a statement. And amazing thing is- it seems that some white person is the one who is really pushing it.
Columbus, my apologies to all of my wonderful Italian friends and 1/2 of my heritage...That F-ing man deserves nothing.Pure evil human being

Regarding our founding fathers, people need to view historical figures in the times they lived. What were the societal norms? What was the age they lived in? Up until and during their time slavery was everywhere, every continent, perpetrated by almost every type of people.

I don't vilify people for conforming with the norms of the time, but I do give extra credit for those that rose above their times. This is why I love Hamilton and Adams so much. This is also why I choose Washington over Jefferson.

It is very dangerous to mandate modern standards to past figures. Just not going to do it. There would be no end to the madness. FDR? Everything gone. He used the federal government to perpetrate one of the biggest civil rights violations of the 20th century. Is this the road we really want to go down?

 

[yesrutgers01]

Regarding our founding fathers, people need to view historical figures in the times they lived. What were the societal norms? What was the age they lived in? Up until and during their time slavery was everywhere, every continent, perpetrated by almost every type of people.

I don't vilify people for conforming with the norms of the time, but I do give extra credit for those that rose above their times. This is why I love Hamilton and Adams so much. This is also why I choose Washington over Jefferson.

It is very dangerous to mandate modern standards to past figures. Just not going to do it. There would be no end to the madness. FDR? Everything gone. He used the federal government to perpetrate one of the biggest civil rights violations of the 20th century. Is this the road we really want to do down?

Agree with everything you said. Two others that we hold in high regard and they were not as great as they seem.
Grant- obviously, he led the Northern army. But he was also the architect to so many atrocities against Native Americans. Teddy Roosevelt- great war hero and national parks. But what he did to Native Americans to get those National PArks, was also criminal.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

It is kinda funny that the people who want a revolution now.. a defeat of the established government.. are against a people who did the same thing in 1860. Something like 25% of southerners had slaves. 25%. That means the majority of people who fought for the Confederacy were NOT slave-holders.

As recently as 2017 the liberal rag The New Republic called for blue state secession.. but now every Confederate was a traitor.

Confederates were not fighting to maintain slavery. They were not traitors....they were very fine fellas. The majorjty of them were Just misunderstood.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Confederates were not fighting to maintain slavery. They were not traitors....they were very fine fellas. The majorjty of them were Just misunderstood.

Yep- they just wanted to preserve their way of life even if it meant treating people of a different color as less than a horse or cow. Just fine fellows...

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

Yep- they just wanted to preserve their way of life even if it meant treating people of a different color as less than a horse or cow. Just fine fellows...

Yep very fine fellas...they should be honored with statues built for them.

They were also the laziest group of people ever.

 

[mdh2003]

Pretend for a moment that you are Jewish and your grandparents died at the Dachau concentration camp and you're living in Munich and the town council decides to erect a statue of Adolph Hitler outside city hall on behalf of all the brave Nazis who died in WWII fighting for the Fatherland. You'd be fine with this knowing your tax dollars paid for it?

No offense to you Westie, because I do it as well, but why is Hitler or nazis very often the go to comparison for things? And what the hell did people use before the 40s?

 

[RUsince52]

Are you talking about the Cretins at Sparta or the Spartans at Crete?

I was thinking the Michiganese at Michigan State, but it could've been from earlier history too.

 

[RUScrew85]

Wow. I get some people aren't woke and probably will never be. But it doesn't mean you have to be brain dead either. Existing somewhere in between woke and brain dead would probably result in a better response than the one above.

What a fact filled response.

 

[RUScrew85]

You just need a bit of woke-ness to understand. No one has any problem with the idea that all lives matter. The problem is that line is being used very specifically by those who oppose the concept that black lives matter. If they truly believed Black Lives Matter, they wouldn't be seen counter-protesting the BLM movement. They would join in.

You speak of this brain dead wokeness like it's a good thing. That says a lot about you.

 

[OTBOTOR]

And what the hell did people use before the 40s?

stinky confederates

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Yep- they just wanted to preserve their way of life even if it meant treating people of a different color as less than a horse or cow. Just fine fellows...

so the 75% who didn't own slaves.. that's why they fought? Now.. they were probably the useful idiots of their day.. like the Antifa and BLM folk are today for the socialists.. but you have a case of a state splitting up because of regional differences. The rebel flag to most of those people had to do with Southern Pride.. not being pro-slavery. The hatemongering activists have pushed and pushed to a point where the useful idiots are tearing down statues of abolitionists... that is where the hate-mongering has lead.

Meanwhile, the stars and bars and confederate statues, alongside that of the abolitionists and founding fathers, have witnessed a black man become president... but those symbols are a real issue.. right? It is BS.. it is a dial the hatemongers can turn to make things "hot" all to help their cause of winning power.. now and forever.

 

[RUScrew85]

so the 75% who didn't own slaves.. that's why they fought? Now.. they were probably the useful idiots of their day.. like the Antifa and BLM folk are today for the socialists.. but you have a case of a state splitting up because of regional differences. The rebel flag to most of those people had to do with Southern Pride.. not being pro-slavery. The hatemongering activists have pushed and pushed to a point where the useful idiots are tearing down statues of abolitionists... that is where the hate-mongering has lead. Meanwhile, the stars and bars and confederate statues, alongside that of the abolitionists and founding fathers, have witnessed a black man become president... but those symbols are a real issue.. right? It is BS.. it is a screw the hatemongers can turn to make things "hot".

You're wasting electrons trying to make your point on this site.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

You speak of this brain dead wokeness like it's a good thing. That says a lot about you.

If BLM (the organization) cared about all people they would just agree and say All Lives Matter. They are racists... and worse (quite possibly a terrorist group bent on insurrection through promoting anarchy).

By saying "all lives matter" they would cover their main issue.. AND take away criticism. They would have more people agreeing with them. So why don't they do that?

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

so the 75% who didn't own slaves.. that's why they fought? Now.. they were probably the useful idiots of their day.. like the Antifa and BLM folk are today for the socialists.. but you have a case of a state splitting up because of regional differences. The rebel flag to most of those people had to do with Southern Pride.. not being pro-slavery. The hatemongering activists have pushed and pushed to a point where the useful idiots are tearing down statues of abolitionists... that is where the hate-mongering has lead.

Meanwhile, the stars and bars and confederate statues, alongside that of the abolitionists and founding fathers, have witnessed a black man become president... but those symbols are a real issue.. right? It is BS.. it is a dial the hatemongers can turn to make things "hot" all to help their cause of winning power.. now and forever.

Hahahahaha.... Southern Pride. They seceded to protect their economy based on slavery because they were Greedy and Lazy, not proud.

Their constitution is "almost" verbatim from the US constitution, not 100%....except of course that part about legalizing slavery.

 

[LotusAggressor]

Pretend for a moment that you are Jewish and your grandparents died at the Dachau concentration camp and you're living in Munich and the town council decides to erect a statue of Adolph Hitler outside city hall on behalf of all the brave Nazis who died in WWII fighting for the Fatherland. You'd be fine with this knowing your tax dollars paid for it?

A good example. Though some people will accuse you of invoking Godwin's Law.

 

[RUinFla]

Regarding our founding fathers, people need to view historical figures in the times they lived. What were the societal norms? What was the age they lived in? Up until and during their time slavery was everywhere, every continent, perpetrated by almost every type of people.

I don't vilify people for conforming with the norms of the time, but I do give extra credit for those that rose above their times. This is why I love Hamilton and Adams so much. This is also why I choose Washington over Jefferson.

It is very dangerous to mandate modern standards to past figures. Just not going to do it. There would be no end to the madness. FDR? Everything gone. He used the federal government to perpetrate one of the biggest civil rights violations of the 20th century. Is this the road we really want to go down?

Dunno, how did Hamilton and Adams stand on women's rights? Or Gandhi, for that matter. Or FDR?