OT: Eminent Oxford Scientist Says Wind Power "Fails On Every Count"

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Yes, I read it.

And I've seen the unusual amount of whales that washed up over the last few months. Funny, didn't they start mapping the ocean floor recently. It's known that this type of activity disorientates mammals like whales. This wouldn't have anything to do with the whales dying at alarming rates this year, would it?

and a TAKE could mean a DEATH. I think they add in teh "inconveniences" to whales as TAKES so that when they reveal teh number of deaths they are allowing for it doesn't alarm people who could just say TAKES do not mean DEATHS. It is posturing... plausible deniability.

I'd still like to follow the money on these leases. You just know that in one way or another this is politicians selling access for benefits to themselves and the friends and family plan. This is the age of greed. The TAKES are basically kill tags for whale hunters who will bag their limit.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Energy is complicated. Any argument that begins “this should be on obvious to a child” is probably wrong.

Or it is probably correct and all those who want to twist things as being "complicated" just want to wave away the obvious negative points as being "complicated" and people "just don't understand".

 

[mildone]

You've worked with Stanford law students?

LOL. Not law students, but Stanford grads, yes. Most of the antisocial super-genius types I’ve known were STEM folks.

 

[Knight Shift]

A similar point was made recently in more dramatic fashion by the nuclear physicist Dr. Wallace Manheimer. He argued that the infrastructure around wind and solar will not only fail, “but will cost trillions, trash large portions of the environment and be entirely unnecessary”.

Manheimer was exposed as a fraud by Police Squad.

 

[fsg2]

Or it is probably correct and all those who want to twist things as being "complicated" just want to wave away the obvious negative points as being "complicated" and people "just don't understand".

Sure, all the batshit conjecture itt is definitely pure truth while those asking for actual verification are obfuscating.

Try saying things out loud before you post.

 

[RU848789]

He obviously didn't read what he had posted or the link he posted or anything else regarding marine mammal "takes" which are allowed under certain circumstances, as per the MMPA (Marine Mammal Protection Act), excerpted below, as long as the "take" is limited to incidental harrassment. There is no expectation that marine mammals will be killed by the sound studies and construction activities - in fact both are highly regulated to ensure minimal impact. And as many of us have said several times, once in place, the threat of operating offshore windmills to marine mammals is essentially zero. It's astounding how little people actually read and research things before they post them.

https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...ctivities-taking-marine-mammals-incidental-to

The MMPA prohibits the “take” of marine mammals, with certain exceptions. Sections 101(a)(5)(A) and (D) of the MMPA (16 U.S.C. 1361 et seq.) direct the Secretary of Commerce (as delegated to NMFS) to allow, upon request, the incidental, but not intentional, taking of small numbers of marine mammals by U.S. citizens who engage in a specified activity (other than commercial fishing) within a specified geographical region if certain findings are made and either regulations are proposed or, if the taking is limited to harassment, a notice of a proposed incidental harassment authorization is provided to the public for review.

You're wrong. For a scientist you don't come off as very smart.

I read this article a month ago. And take means death or injury, not just injury. And injuring them can lead to death. Have you read up on the potential impact the noise from the farms can have on them with how they communicate? How the farms affect fish.

Marine Mammal Authorization Program​

The Marine Mammal Protection Act prohibits killing or injuring marine mammals except under certain circumstances. The Marine Mammal Authorization Program provides an annual exemption for accidentally killing or injuring marine mammals—referred to as incidental take—during commercial fishing operations.

Marine Mammal Authorization Program

The Marine Mammal Protection Act prohibits killing or injuring marine mammals except under certain circumstances. The Marine Mammal Authorization Program provides an annual exemption for accidentally killing or injuring marine mammals—referred to as incidental take—during commercial fishing...

www.fisheries.noaa.gov

Block Island Wind Farm May Have Killed Young Humpback Whale - Newport Buzz

The Best of Newport, RI. Newport Buzz is the leading News Source for Breaking News, What's New and To-Do in Newport, RI.

www.thenewportbuzz.com

Offshore Wind Turbines Blamed For Killing Family Of Whales

Three dead whales that washed up on the coast of Britain likely died after becoming disorientated by offshore wind turbines.

dailycaller.com

Nope, sorry, you're still wrong. You're quoting the MMAP with regard to "incidental takes" during commercial fishing operations, which allows for some level of killing marine mammals, since commercial fishing results in occasional injury and/or death to marine mammals as it is the number one threat to them, as is well known, and you could have read about much earlier in the thread (and they're not about to outlaw commercial fishing). That is not what is at issue here.

What I provided was the language from the MMAP with regard to "Taking Marine Mammals Incidental to Marine Site Characterization Surveys," which is very different and much more restrictive, as takes in this case do not include killing the marine mammals at all, but are limited to "incidental harrasment," which is defined as any act of pursuit, torment, or annoyance that has the potential to injure a marine mammal or marine mammal stock in the wild. Basically, for things like surveys and construction, the allowable level of "injury" to marine mammals is far less than for commercial fishing.

We've also covered before, in great detail, how the damage from sound surveys and construction is considered by many scientific studies to date to be very minor, especially relative to the damage and injuries from commercial fishing operations. And there aren't even any windmills in operation off the NJ coast, so no, they can't be responsible for the recent uptick in cetacean deaths. Please take a few minutes to educate yourself by reading up on earlier posts in the thread, as you're wasting everyone's time by rehashing debunked theories.

 

[RU848789]

He did that in March 2020, as I recall.

You still lick toilets to show off what an alpha moron you are?

Yep, we decontaminated surfaces until about July/August 2020, when the data on fomite (surface to human) transmission finally started coming in, showing that route was very likely a trivial one for transmission, so we stopped doing decon around then. Before then and especially early on, there simply wasn't any data on fomite transmission, which is not surprising, as this was a brand new life form on planet Earth and studying live virus transmission routes is a painstaking and dangerous activity requiring specialized biosafety labs, which also meant it took time for the science to be done. Prior to that it was educated guesswork and in the absence of real data, we preferred to take the easy, low risk route. That's how science works but Moose wouldn't understand any of that.

 

[RU_DIO]

Nope, sorry, you're still wrong. You're quoting the MMAP with regard to "incidental takes" during commercial fishing operations, which allows for some level of killing marine mammals, since commercial fishing results in occasional injury and/or death to marine mammals as it is the number one threat to them, as is well known, and you could have read about much earlier in the thread (and they're not about to outlaw commercial fishing). That is not what is at issue here.

What I provided was the language from the MMAP with regard to "Taking Marine Mammals Incidental to Marine Site Characterization Surveys," which is very different and much more restrictive, as takes in this case do not include killing the marine mammals at all, but are limited to "incidental harrasment," which is defined as any act of pursuit, torment, or annoyance that has the potential to injure a marine mammal or marine mammal stock in the wild. Basically, for things like surveys and construction, the allowable level of "injury" to marine mammals is far less than for commercial fishing.

We've also covered before, in great detail, how the damage from sound surveys and construction is considered by many scientific studies to date to be very minor, especially relative to the damage and injuries from commercial fishing operations. And there aren't even any windmills in operation off the NJ coast, so no, they can't be responsible for the recent uptick in cetacean deaths. Please take a few minutes to educate yourself by reading up on earlier posts in the thread, as you're wasting everyone's time by rehashing debunked theories.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[RU4Real]

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

Well, that was useless. Sound in the 1 - 4 kHz range drives some cetaceans away. Well, specifically Northern Bottlenose whales, which don't live around here. Other cetaceans are generally indifferent to the sounds. So we've learned... nothing that we didn't know.

Incidentally, whale behavior in the vicinity of marine sonars is a pretty well documented thing. Ya know... what with all the whale watching tours and whales swimming up to small boats and stuff. I've witnessed it myself, it's not uncommon behavior.

To posit that surveying activities - which are not currently happening - is "killing" whales is just dumb.

 

[patk89]

Some very interesting points being made regarding renewables. Prudential was one of the earliest major financiers of renewable energy in the 1980's. At that time, there were creditable projections that oil prices would continue to rise, greater than $100/barrel over 40 years ago. Pru was involved in major commercial scale solar in the Mojave (SEGS). Also did early wind in northern California (there were lots of birds killed which lost some support). Construction of one of the solar plants was delayed due to several desert tortoises being killed by workers driving to the site. Small scale hydro (even one in Patterson, NJ). Many of these loans ended up in workout unfortunately after the initial contracted capacity price period expired and oil prices were much lower than projected (causing market prices to be lower).

The perfect match is a windy/sunny area. Wind tends to produce less during peak summer periods when customers heavily use air conditioning. Solar peaks during the same period. Back that up with efficient gas-fired mid-merit and peaking capacity.

Here is a company that intends to create a renewable energy hub at the site of an old fossil fueled power generation facility. Will receive output from offshore wind and power NYC.

https://riselight.com/about-rise-light-power/

NJ project,

"Rise Light & Power acquired the site of the former E.H. Werner Power Station in South Amboy, NJ, to transform an abandoned coal plant into a renewable energy hub. The project will serve as a central interconnection point for offshore wind farms to send clean energy to the electric grid, without burying high-voltage cables under New Jersey beaches. With Rise’s ongoing remediation efforts, the project will also lead to elimination of a once-contaminated brownfield site dating back to the 1930s."

 

[brgRC90]

Some very interesting points being made regarding renewables. Prudential was one of the earliest major financiers of renewable energy in the 1980's. At that time, there were creditable projections that oil prices would continue to rise, greater than $100/barrel over 40 years ago. Pru was involved in major commercial scale solar in the Mojave (SEGS). Also did early wind in northern California (there were lots of birds killed which lost some support). Construction of one of the solar plants was delayed due to several desert tortoises being killed by workers driving to the site. Small scale hydro (even one in Patterson, NJ). Many of these loans ended up in workout unfortunately after the initial contracted capacity price period expired and oil prices were much lower than projected (causing market prices to be lower).

The perfect match is a windy/sunny area. Wind tends to produce less during peak summer periods when customers heavily use air conditioning. Solar peaks during the same period. Back that up with efficient gas-fired mid-merit and peaking capacity.

Here is a company that intends to create a renewable energy hub at the site of an old fossil fueled power generation facility. Will receive output from offshore wind and power NYC.

https://riselight.com/about-rise-light-power/

NJ project,

"Rise Light & Power acquired the site of the former E.H. Werner Power Station in South Amboy, NJ, to transform an abandoned coal plant into a renewable energy hub. The project will serve as a central interconnection point for offshore wind farms to send clean energy to the electric grid, without burying high-voltage cables under New Jersey beaches. With Rise’s ongoing remediation efforts, the project will also lead to elimination of a once-contaminated brownfielded site dating back to the 1930s."

It has all preceded too slowly given how important energy is and how much it has been disrupted. Think of what's happened since the 80s: wars in Iraq and Kuwait that screwed up energy, periodic price spikes, Russia invading Ukraine, Exxon Valdez, BP spill in the gulf, etc. OPEC, a rogues gallery of countries, is starting to dominate the market again. It's a little baffling that people would be so wedded to fossil fuels when in reality supplying them consistently has been hugely expensive and difficult--and that's not even touching on environmental damage. The fact that oil companies have to go to the ends of the earth and ever deeper under the oceans to get oil shows that it's becoming more scarce and more expensive--and more risky--to obtain. There are many reasons to move beyond fossil fuels as much as possible. Completely eliminating them might be a long way off but greatly reducing their use would seem like a pretty urgent goal.

 

[fsg2]

It has all preceded too slowly given how important energy is and how much it has been disrupted. Think of what's happened since the 80s: wars in Iraq and Kuwait that screwed up energy, periodic price spikes, Russia invading Ukraine, Exxon Valdez, BP spill in the gulf, etc. OPEC, a rogues gallery of countries, is starting to dominate the market again. It's a little baffling that people would be so wedded to fossil fuels when in reality supplying them consistently has been hugely expensive and difficult--and that's not even touching on environmental damage. The fact that oil companies have to go to the ends of the earth and ever deeper under the oceans to get oil shows that it's becoming more scarce and more expensive--and more risky--to obtain. There are many reasons to move beyond fossil fuels as much as possible. Completely eliminating them might be a long way off but greatly reducing their use would seem like a pretty urgent goal.

This is true. I feel like we were debating these same energy options 30 years ago.

There's been some progress but way too slow. And why are we still arguing about the merits of cleaner domestic power like it's some new, out-of-the-sky idea?

 

[brgRC90]

This is true. I feel like we were debating these same energy options 30 years ago.

There's been some progress but way too slow. And why are we still arguing about the merits of cleaner domestic power like it's some new, out-of-the-sky idea?

Because the same people that were fighting tooth and nail back then are fighting now. The same people who said electric cars were impossible, that global warming wasn't happening and then said yes it's happening but it's not manmade, the same people who always reflexively fight any change.

 

[voltz99]

Trust the science!!!

Dems only trust science if it fits their politics.

 

[RUBlackout7]

Trust the science!!!

Dems only trust science if it fits their politics.

And Reps just straight up don’t trust the science. So there’s that.

 

[voltz99]

And Reps just straight up don’t trust the science. So there’s that.

We could say the same about you and wind farms. You are not trusting the science. Why is that? Do you hate science? Do you hate the environment?

 

[RUBlackout7]

We could say the same about you and wind farms. You are not trusting the science. Why is that? Do you hate science? Do you hate the environment?

What do I think about wind farms and what is the science saying?

 

[RU4Real]

What do I think about wind farms and what is the science saying?

Forget it. He probably thinks that wind farms in the US kill "Millions of birds a year. All the birds. The best birds."

 

[MADHAT1]

Because the same people that were fighting tooth and nail back then are fighting now. The same people who said electric cars were impossible, that global warming wasn't happening and then said yes it's happening but it's not manmade, the same people who always reflexively fight any change.

 

[brgRC90]

I must've struck a nerve.

 

[RUaMoose]

Yeah, those internet tests add some points, dude. I took a few and always wind up around 160.

Well I’m smart enough to dismiss opinions of those that spray Lysol on their pizza boxes to, presumably prevent getting infected by an airborne virus

 

[RU4Real]

Well I’m smart enough to dismiss opinions of those that spray Lysol on their pizza boxes to, presumably prevent getting infected by an airborne virus

Epic.

 

[RU848789]

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

You completely whiffed on the MMAP post, but this is a good article. However, nobody is saying that military (and possibly commercial) sonars have no impacts on marine mammals. There is obviously some risk, since the DOD has modified a host of naval/ship exercises to mitigate risks to marine mammals, especially in fragile habitats off the US west coast.

The issue, as several of us have pointed out, is that the impacts from (intermittent, low power and short-term) sound surveys should be far less than the impacts from military/commercial sonars and, clearly, from commercial fishing (both boat strikes and net entanglements, which are known to be responsible for most marine mammal deaths). I've yet to see any reputable experts blaming the whale beachings in NJ on sound surveys, especially since the whale deaths started increasing several years ago, years before the surveys started.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/29/whale-deaths-new-jersey-offshore-wind-00079462

 

[RU4Real]

You completely whiffed on the MMAP post, but this is a good article. However, nobody is saying that military (and possibly commercial) sonars have no impacts on marine mammals. There is obviously some risk, since the DOD has modified a host of naval/ship exercises to mitigate risks to marine mammals, especially in fragile habitats off the US west coast.

The issue, as several of us have pointed out, is that the impacts from (intermittent, low power and short-term) sound surveys should be far less than the impacts from military/commercial sonars and, clearly, from commercial fishing (both boat strikes and net entanglements, which are known to be responsible for most marine mammal deaths). I've yet to see any reputable experts blaming the whale beachings in NJ on sound surveys, especially since the whale deaths started increasing several years ago, years before the surveys started.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/29/whale-deaths-new-jersey-offshore-wind-00079462

Small clarification - they're not "beachings". These animals were dead when they washed up on shore.

 

[Knight Shift]

Small clarification - they're not "beachings". These animals were dead when they washed up on shore.

Started seeing a lot more beached whales recently. Did not see many at all in the 1970s.

 

[RU4Real]

Started seeing a lot more beached whales recently. Did not see many at all in the 1970s.

But much less furry than in the 80s.

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

I have boycotted Exxon (and then Mobil) since that spill as a result of their poor response in Alaska. It makes it even easier as Exxon usually seems to be priced AT LEST 50 cents more a gallon compared to others.

Same here
Refuse to buy Exxon to this day.
Would rather run out and call AAA.

 

[Knight Shift]

But much less furry than in the 80s.

Staff of of Gunnison Beach. You've been warned. Things seen cannot be unseen.

 

[LETSGORU91]

Same here
Refuse to buy Exxon to this day.
Would rather run out and call AAA.

Next round is on me.

 

[LETSGORU91]

Staff of of Gunnison Beach. You've been warned. Things seen cannot be unseen.

That has much more to do with the evolution of the grooming process (or lack thereof) and not windmill power. The rumors I hear say it's making a comeback.

 

[Knight Shift]

Started seeing a lot more beached whales recently. Did not see many at all in the 1970s.

It's going to get worse too. Unbelievable what our government does to promote obesity in children.






But it's OK, the FDA has approved Ozempic for children. Don't give them good food. Make them fat and feed them drugs. Amazing. Don't instill and take responsibility for eating right and exercising on children. Push crap on them to make them fat, and then push drugs to "address" being fat.

 

[tom1944]

It's going to get worse too. Unbelievable what our government does to promote obesity in children.

View embedded media

View embedded media

But it's OK, the FDA has approved Ozempic for children. Don't give them good food. Make them fat and feed them drugs. Amazing. Don't instill and take responsibility for eating right and exercising on children. Push crap on them to make them fat, and then push drugs to "address" being fat.

View embedded media

Wasn’t there a First Lady who received a lot of criticism when she spoke up about school lunches

 

[Proud NJ Sports Fan]

Trust the science!!!

Dems only trust science if it fits their politics.

 

[Knight Shift]

Wasn’t there a First Lady who received a lot of criticism when she spoke up about school lunches

Yes, that was First Lady Michelle Obama. Her plan was well-intentioned, but typical of any government program, it was fumbled terribly in implementation. That's probably not on the proponent of the program but the department and personnel that carried out the program. Typical political BS.

Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act of 2010 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MADHAT1]

Small clarification - they're not "beachings". These animals were dead when they washed up on shore.

also Rutgers has an explanation
Q&A on Recent Whale Strandings and Offshore Wind Energy Development – Offshore Wind Energy Collaborative
>Ongoing planning and surveying activities conducted by offshore wind developers for the different projects include acoustic surveys for site evaluation. There have been recent claims that these acoustic surveying efforts have caused this recent uptick in whale strandings. At this point, there are no data or evidence linking whale mortalities to any one specific factor, including offshore wind development.

Not all acoustic surveys are the same. Unlike the large acoustic arrays for oil and gas surveys or military sonar that use high-intensive low frequency acoustics, the wind acoustic surveys are of high frequency or lower intensity low frequency which are harder for baleen whales – including humpback whales – to hear.12,23

Notably, the recent strandings of humpbacks and other marine mammals have been occurring from Florida through Maine1, covering a large region with very different stressors. To properly assign cause to any stranding, all factors must be considered.<

https://osw.rutgers.edu/home/recent...rstoday&utm_content=Research &amp; Innovation

 

[RU4Real]

also Rutgers has an explanation
Q&A on Recent Whale Strandings and Offshore Wind Energy Development – Offshore Wind Energy Collaborative
>Ongoing planning and surveying activities conducted by offshore wind developers for the different projects include acoustic surveys for site evaluation. There have been recent claims that these acoustic surveying efforts have caused this recent uptick in whale strandings. At this point, there are no data or evidence linking whale mortalities to any one specific factor, including offshore wind development.

Not all acoustic surveys are the same. Unlike the large acoustic arrays for oil and gas surveys or military sonar that use high-intensive low frequency acoustics, the wind acoustic surveys are of high frequency or lower intensity low frequency which are harder for baleen whales – including humpback whales – to hear.12,23

Notably, the recent strandings of humpbacks and other marine mammals have been occurring from Florida through Maine1, covering a large region with very different stressors. To properly assign cause to any stranding, all factors must be considered.<

https://osw.rutgers.edu/home/recent-whale-strandings/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=rutgerstoday&utm_content=Research &amp; Innovation

This is what I've been saying.

 

[RU848789]

This is what I've been saying.

Yep, me too. And in the big picture, I'll go back to something I said pages ago: that they've had offshore windmills in many European countries for decades and never had a significant issue with whale or other marine mammal deaths until very recently, meaning it makes no logical sense that offshore windmills are a risk factor. But I'm sure the new faux environmentalists will continue to ignore this and other evidence that low energy sound surveys and windmill operations are of minimal risk, while continuing to also ignore the major risk factor we know of - commercial fishing boat collisions and entanglements. And while it's always possible there is some new factor at play here, it ain't windmills.

 

[RUScrew85]

It's going to get worse too. Unbelievable what our government does to promote obesity in children.

View embedded media

View embedded media

But it's OK, the FDA has approved Ozempic for children. Don't give them good food. Make them fat and feed them drugs. Amazing. Don't instill and take responsibility for eating right and exercising on children. Push crap on them to make them fat, and then push drugs to "address" being fat.

View embedded media

It's amazing all the terrible diet advice the .gov and schools teach and support. The only reason I can see for this is they're being corrupted by the shitty Food guys, HFCS, etc... I mean they can't be that stupid right? They have to be corrupt.

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the FDA starts recommending smoking in the future (as soon as the tobacco checks arrive)

 

[mildone]

That’s not what I’ve been saying. I’ve been saying it’s space aliens causing the whale deaths. And I know I’m correct.

Also, I’ve got more information on this. Turns out that the whales, that are washing up ashore dead, are facsimiles of the real whales. The real whales have been abducted by the space aliens.

We don’t know for certain why the whales have been abducted. But is there really any doubt that the space aliens are performing sexual experiments on the abducted whales? I think not.

Turns out that several whale species have 10-12 foot prehensile penises. That is bound to be a subject of great curiosity to visitors from other planets.

 

[brgRC90]

Actually that's Republicans. And since it never fits their agenda they've become the anti-science party of stupid: anti-green, anti-vax, anti-doctor, anti-evolution, anti-teacher, anti-education, anti-book.