OT - SI swimsuit issue, 3 covers this year.

[FanuSanu52]

why do you think it was a trap? It was a question based on what you posted about having a choice in who we love. Also, I can't consult with all my smart friends because the really smart ones put you on ignore months ago.

It was obviously a trap to try to twist my words into something supporting your own views on gays. Or to try to make me appear inconsistent where there were no inconsistencies.

And, nice try again, but no they didn't. The dumb rocks who ignore everyone did.

I'm glad you concede my points, though.

 

[FanuSanu52]

I'll concede that the term "beauty standards" is broader and leaves more room for societal influence than "the physical attributes men find sexually attractive" which is what I've really been talking about. As to the latter, uh, yeah, they ARE biological and generally not all that fluid. That still leaves a lot of room for variation, mind you. And eating disorders are attributable to a large and varied volume of biological, psychological, and environmental factors. It's intellectually dishonest (and emotionally manipulative to the reader) to blame eating disorders and body dysmorphia on the biological fact that men respond the most to thin(ner) women with an hourglass figure as opposed to rolls of fat and cellulite, and that this fact has historically been reflected in media geared towards men.

And if you need any evidence that people are turning the page on this supposedly "good" message, just look at the number of downvotes that each video of Graham has on SI Swimsuit's Youtube page in comparison with the videos of the other models. It's clear evidence that people do not appreciate being preached at through the freakin' SI Swimsuit Edition.

Yes because anytime I need evidence, the first place I look is the YouTube comments section.

Good clarification on the difference between beauty standards and physical attributes. But those attributes don't actually disqualify Ashley at all. From your own links, we're talking about attributes like big breasts and a small waist/hip ratio. Check and check.

You're kidding yourself with the Marilyn stuff. Kate Upton gets criticized for being "fat" in today's world; Marilyn is a few steps curvier than that. She most definitely is not closer to the average swimsuit model and would 100 percent not be the beauty icon she was back then today. Tastes definitely shift.

At the end of the day, who cares anyway. Like what you like and don't project it onto others or make a huge stink because, god forbid, SI devoted a couple of pages to a girl you're not attracted to.

 

[RUChoppin]

Marilyn Monroe would be somewhere in the size 6-8 range with current sizing. Jane Russell was considered more voluptuous than Monroe, and was probably in the 8-9 range. Neither would be in the range acceptable for runway/fashion models... but I'd take either of them over someone built like Kate Moss any day of the week.

 

[Rutgers1976]

My all time favorite was/is Kathy Ireland. She's still plenty hot, too. Not that I'd turn down any of the others, mind you.

 

[Caliknight]

Marilyn Monroe would be somewhere in the size 6-8 range with current sizing. Jane Russell was considered more voluptuous than Monroe, and was probably in the 8-9 range. Neither would be in the range acceptable for runway/fashion models... but I'd take either of them over someone built like Kate Moss any day of the week.

Typical runway models are very different than swimsuit/lingerie models. Kate Moss would likely never be an SI swimsuit or VS model. She is built for print.

 

[grbRU09]

Yes because anytime I need evidence, the first place I look is the YouTube comments section.

Good clarification on the difference between beauty standards and physical attributes. But those attributes don't actually disqualify Ashley at all. From your own links, we're talking about attributes like big breasts and a small waist/hip ratio. Check and check.

You're kidding yourself with the Marilyn stuff. Kate Upton gets criticized for being "fat" in today's world; Marilyn is a few steps curvier than that. She most definitely is not closer to the average swimsuit model and would 100 percent not be the beauty icon she was back then today. Tastes definitely shift.

At the end of the day, who cares anyway. Like what you like and don't project it onto others or make a huge stink because, god forbid, SI devoted a couple of pages to a girl you're not attracted to.

So you're saying that the public's feedback on SI Swimsuit's Youtube videos is not at all reflective of the public's reaction to the stunt they've pulled? If SI's marketing folks are actually intelligent, they will certainly not be as eager to dismiss Youtube feedback as you seem to be. When your industry depends almost entirely on viewer feedback, you'd best pay attention to it. SI may be thrilled because the controversy they've caused is leading to more Youtube hits and more attention to their product, but that doesn't change the fact that the public, and in particular the true target demographic (men), are reacting very negatively to Graham's inclusion in the issue. Just because late night talk shows and cat lady journalists at HuffPo are congratulating the move doesn't mean the real world is actually thrilled about it. They're trying so, so hard to manipulate public opinion on the issue, and they're (unfortunately) succeeding to some degree.

Those attributes may include a certain waist to hip ratio but they don't include giant thighs and shoulders and rolls of fat, bud.

No, Marilyn is not "a few steps curvier" than Kate Upton. Aside from having large breasts, their body types are not all that comparable. Marilyn Monroe is far more comparable to Chrissy Teigen, and thus far closer to a present day swimsuit model than Graham. Monroe and Teigen are by nearly all measures both thin and curvaceous. Marilyn Monroe and Ashley Graham are worlds apart. Like I said before, if Marilyn were alive today, she would not wear a present-day size 16 or anything close to it. When she actually was alive, she didn't weigh anywhere near 170-200 pounds (and you think glorifying overweight/obese BMIs constitutes a "good" message? Are you smoking bath salts??). Your argument that "guys in this thread would call Marilyn fat" is not only a completely unsubstantiated assumption, but also fails factually because she wasn't fat in the 1950s and she wouldn't be fat by any standard that matters (industry standards and/or the biologically based standards of her intended target audience) if she were alive today. Btw, some people called Kate Upton fat because she simply wasn't in fighting shape for a while. No one leveled that criticism of her when she first burst on the scene.

Thanks, but I'll talk about whatever I want to talk about. This isn't just one woman in one magazine, by the way. Fat acceptance BS is being pushed really hard nowadays.

 

[RU_Planning]

So you're saying that the public's feedback on SI Swimsuit's Youtube videos is not at all reflective of the public's reaction to the stunt they've pulled? If SI's marketing folks are actually intelligent, they will certainly not be as eager to dismiss Youtube feedback as you seem to be. When your industry depends almost entirely on viewer feedback, you'd best pay attention to it. SI may be thrilled because the controversy they've caused is leading to more Youtube hits and more attention to their product, but that doesn't change the fact that the public, and in particular the true target demographic (men), are reacting very negatively to Graham's inclusion in the issue. Just because late night talk shows and cat lady journalists at HuffPo are congratulating the move doesn't mean the real world is actually thrilled about it. They're trying so, so hard to manipulate public opinion on the issue, and they're (unfortunately) succeeding to some degree.

Those attributes may include a certain waist to hip ratio but they don't include giant thighs and shoulders and rolls of fat, bud.

No, Marilyn is not "a few steps curvier" than Kate Upton. Aside from having large breasts, their body types are not all that comparable. Marilyn Monroe is far more comparable to Chrissy Teigen, and thus far closer to a present day swimsuit model than Graham. Monroe and Teigen are by nearly all measures both thin and curvaceous. Marilyn Monroe and Ashley Graham are worlds apart. Like I said before, if Marilyn were alive today, she would not wear a present-day size 16 or anything close to it. When she actually was alive, she didn't weigh anywhere near 170-200 pounds (and you think glorifying overweight/obese BMIs constitutes a "good" message? Are you smoking bath salts??). Your argument that "guys in this thread would call Marilyn fat" is not only a completely unsubstantiated assumption, but also fails factually because she wasn't fat in the 1950s and she wouldn't be fat by any standard that matters (industry standards and/or the biologically based standards of her intended target audience) if she were alive today. Btw, some people called Kate Upton fat because she simply wasn't in fighting shape for a while. No one leveled that criticism of her when she first burst on the scene.

Thanks, but I'll talk about whatever I want to talk about. This isn't just one woman in one magazine, by the way. Fat acceptance BS is being pushed really hard nowadays.

Now we have the war on thin people, the outrage!

 

[RU4Real]

Also, I need to interject on the topic of Marilyn Monroe. There is a LOT of misunderstanding and misrepresentation regarding her size.

Marilyn Monroe was 5' 5 1/2" tall and weighed, nominally, about 118 lbs. Her "studio" measurements were 37-23-36, her dressmaker measurements were 35-22-35 and her bra size was 36D. If you dropped her smack in the middle of contemporary standards, she would fit perfectly.

 

[grbRU09]

Now we have the war on thin people, the outrage!

...Not sure how you got that from anything I've written thus far, but if you say so...

 

[RUChoppin]

Also, I need to interject on the topic of Marilyn Monroe. There is a LOT of misunderstanding and misrepresentation regarding her size.

Marilyn Monroe was 5' 5 1/2" tall and weighed, nominally, about 118 lbs. Her "studio" measurements were 37-23-36, her dressmaker measurements were 35-22-35 and her bra size was 36D. If you dropped her smack in the middle of contemporary standards, she would fit perfectly.

Yeah, there's been a ton of stuff online about it. In her time, she was considered a size 12... but a size 12 in her time translates roughly into the size 6-8 range today.

 

[Caliknight]

This Ashley Graham travesty is doing far more harm than good. Now porterhouses all over are going to think it is ok to be big. The Kardashian klan already broke that bridge of wrong, but this is next level idiocy. What's next, keeping world records for the slowest person to almost finish a marathon and presenting them as something to aspire to?

 

[grbRU09]

Also, I need to interject on the topic of Marilyn Monroe. There is a LOT of misunderstanding and misrepresentation regarding her size.

Marilyn Monroe was 5' 5 1/2" tall and weighed, nominally, about 118 lbs. Her "studio" measurements were 37-23-36, her dressmaker measurements were 35-22-35 and her bra size was 36D. If you dropped her smack in the middle of contemporary standards, she would fit perfectly.

This confirms Fanu has been talking out of his arse this entire time. Is that a hobby of is?

 

[vkj91]

It was obviously a trap to try to twist my words into something supporting your own views on gays. Or to try to make me appear inconsistent where there were no inconsistencies.

And, nice try again, but no they didn't. The dumb rocks who ignore everyone did.

I'm glad you concede my points, though.

I'm not in HS so I don't try to trap random strangers on a message forum. I simply quoted your words and asked a question. Per usual, you get all defensive.

 

[RUJohnny99]

Also, I need to interject on the topic of Marilyn Monroe. There is a LOT of misunderstanding and misrepresentation regarding her size.

Marilyn Monroe was 5' 5 1/2" tall and weighed, nominally, about 118 lbs. Her "studio" measurements were 37-23-36, her dressmaker measurements were 35-22-35 and her bra size was 36D. If you dropped her smack in the middle of contemporary standards, she would fit perfectly.

She also had to wear two sets of granny pants for that famous scene in the 7 Year Itch because she liked to let herself go wild down there.

 

[RU4Real]

She also had to wear two sets of granny pants for that famous scene in the 7 Year Itch because she liked to let herself go wild down there.

Landscaping didn't become a thing until disposable razors for women became a thing.

 

[zappaa]

Also, I need to interject on the topic of Marilyn Monroe. There is a LOT of misunderstanding and misrepresentation regarding her size.

Marilyn Monroe was 5' 5 1/2" tall and weighed, nominally, about 118 lbs. Her "studio" measurements were 37-23-36, her dressmaker measurements were 35-22-35 and her bra size was 36D. If you dropped her smack in the middle of contemporary standards, she would fit perfectly.

Joe DiMaggio and Marllyn had dinner with my dad and Rizzutto, years later I asked Phil what dad's reaction to Marilyn was…Phil told me dad just said "madone" all night long..

It was well known Marilyn had weight fluctuation problems, when she was in shape she was awesome, and would be killer today.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Marilyn Monroe would be somewhere in the size 6-8 range with current sizing. Jane Russell was considered more voluptuous than Monroe, and was probably in the 8-9 range. Neither would be in the range acceptable for runway/fashion models... but I'd take either of them over someone built like Kate Moss any day of the week.

Marilyn Monroe was 5’5” and 118, and would wear the current US dress size 6. Her measurements were 36-24-34. Yes, she'd be in SI in a heartbeat and would never be considered "flabby".

 

[FanuSanu52]

So you're saying that the public's feedback on SI Swimsuit's Youtube videos is not at all reflective of the public's reaction to the stunt they've pulled? If SI's marketing folks are actually intelligent, they will certainly not be as eager to dismiss Youtube feedback as you seem to be. When your industry depends almost entirely on viewer feedback, you'd best pay attention to it. SI may be thrilled because the controversy they've caused is leading to more Youtube hits and more attention to their product, but that doesn't change the fact that the public, and in particular the true target demographic (men), are reacting very negatively to Graham's inclusion in the issue. Just because late night talk shows and cat lady journalists at HuffPo are congratulating the move doesn't mean the real world is actually thrilled about it. They're trying so, so hard to manipulate public opinion on the issue, and they're (unfortunately) succeeding to some degree.

Those attributes may include a certain waist to hip ratio but they don't include giant thighs and shoulders and rolls of fat, bud.

No, Marilyn is not "a few steps curvier" than Kate Upton. Aside from having large breasts, their body types are not all that comparable. Marilyn Monroe is far more comparable to Chrissy Teigen, and thus far closer to a present day swimsuit model than Graham. Monroe and Teigen are by nearly all measures both thin and curvaceous. Marilyn Monroe and Ashley Graham are worlds apart. Like I said before, if Marilyn were alive today, she would not wear a present-day size 16 or anything close to it. When she actually was alive, she didn't weigh anywhere near 170-200 pounds (and you think glorifying overweight/obese BMIs constitutes a "good" message? Are you smoking bath salts??). Your argument that "guys in this thread would call Marilyn fat" is not only a completely unsubstantiated assumption, but also fails factually because she wasn't fat in the 1950s and she wouldn't be fat by any standard that matters (industry standards and/or the biologically based standards of her intended target audience) if she were alive today. Btw, some people called Kate Upton fat because she simply wasn't in fighting shape for a while. No one leveled that criticism of her when she first burst on the scene.

Thanks, but I'll talk about whatever I want to talk about. This isn't just one woman in one magazine, by the way. Fat acceptance BS is being pushed really hard nowadays.

Seriously? Why would I use YouTube comments to gauge anything. Some of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life are YouTube comments. Every time I read YouTube comments, I regret it.

And why would SI give a sh#t, either. All it cares about is selling magazines, which is the only reason to have a Swimsuit issue in the first place. I really doubt this will impact anything, and all the controversy is only going to help.

But yeah, keep fighting the good fight. Wouldn't want the page to accidentally turn to the fat chick when you're wanking it to Ronda Rousey.

 

[RU4Real]

YouTube has comments?

 

[FanuSanu52]

This confirms Fanu has been talking out of his arse this entire time. Is that a hobby of is?

Sure it does.

You can argue your overwrought BMI analyses all day, but bottom line remains, some of the same out-of-shape mouth breathers on here acting incensed about the Ashley chick would be calling Marilyn fat if she had to pose next to today's swimsuit model.

Like I said, standards change and they're not universal, as some of your own "evidence" said outright (in the future, maybe read the links you post to make sure they agree with what you're saying).

 

[bethlehemfan]

They should just pick them at random off the street. Why discriminate at all?

 

[zappaa]

Did you not read where I said Marilyn had weight fluctuation problems? Enough so to drive her to her grave.
Try finding a picture of her when she was Young and in shape.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Did you not read where I said Marilyn had weight fluctuation problems? Enough so to drive her to her grave.
Try finding a picture of her when she was Young and in shape.

I did and it has nothing to do with my point. She was still a model when she was heavier, as those photos show. People would call that "fat" today and hold YouTube protests about how she shouldn't be in the Swimsuit issue. In fact, you're alluding to it in your post. She was still a sex symbol then, and those fluctuation issues didn't hurt her legacy at all.

Those photos I posted are some of the first that pop up with a Google search, btw. It's not like they're rare or hidden.

 

[RUforJERSEY]

Not many things more arrogant than some pompous dudes trying to tell you what you should find attractive in women based on their own taste. When it's very tied to your culture as well as personal preference.

 

[zappaa]

I did and it has nothing to do with my point. She was still a model when she was heavier, as those photos show. People would call that "fat" today and hold YouTube protests about how she shouldn't be in the Swimsuit issue. In fact, you're alluding to it in your post. She was still a sex symbol then, and those fluctuation issues didn't hurt her legacy at all.

Those photos I posted are some of the first that pop up with a Google search, btw. It's not like they're rare or hidden.

Not true,
She was an iconic sex symbol and that chubby Marilyn killed her. The public, and my dad included all noticed her as a chubby when she got older, it was very known.
The early 20s Marilyn could rock an SI cover today and look awesome

 

[RUforJERSEY]

Not true,
She was an iconic sex symbol and that chubby Marilyn killed her. The public, and my dad included all noticed her as a chubby when she got older, it was very known.
The early 20s Marilyn could rock an SI cover today and look awesome

Chubby by who's standards though?

 

[zappaa]

Chubby by who's standards though?

Look, we all know what chubby looks like on an SI cover. If you like a bigger girl that's great.
The FACT remains, the 20 year old Marilyn making her debut in movies was beyond beautiful by any measure in any era.
The over 30 Marilyn was someone to gawk at and rarely went out in public

 

[vkj91]

Chubby by who's standards though?

Pillsbury corporation.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Not true,
She was an iconic sex symbol and that chubby Marilyn killed her. The public, and my dad included all noticed her as a chubby when she got older, it was very known.
The early 20s Marilyn could rock an SI cover today and look awesome

No one thinks "chubby" today when Marilyn's name is brought up and some photos of her when she was "chubby" are still classics.

If you want to keep debating, I have to insist you address my greater point, which really has nothing to do with Marilyn Monroe, a mere example, and everything to do with the fact that beauty standards fluctuate over time.

 

[vkj91]

Did you not read where I said Marilyn had weight fluctuation problems? Enough so to drive her to her grave.
Try finding a picture of her when she was Young and in shape.

He did but ignored it because he doesn't really care about reality...all about the narrative

 

[FanuSanu52]

He did but ignored it because he doesn't really care about reality...all about the narrative

That would have been almost clever ... if it didn't come 30 minutes after I answered zappaa myself.

Once again, vkj is painfully slow.

 

[zappaa]

No one thinks "chubby" today when Marilyn's name is brought up and some photos of her when she was "chubby" are still classics.

If you want to keep debating, I have to insist you address my greater point, which really has nothing to do with Marilyn Monroe, a mere example, and everything to do with the fact that beauty standards fluctuate over time.

BS big time...
There isn't a person from my dads era alive today that didn't consider over 30 Marilyn chubby....none!
My dad often referred to her as after she "put on weight" we didn't see her anymore

 

[grbRU09]

People would call that "fat" today and hold YouTube protests about how she shouldn't be in the Swimsuit issue.

No, they wouldn't. You have no way of proving that they would, nor a basis for thinking they would. The only model who is being "protested" is Ashley Graham, and she's positively gargantuan compared to Marilyn, even using the Marilyn pictures you posted for a comparison between the two. That's the only argument you've furthered to support the position that those of us who think Graham shouldn't be within a mile of a swimsuit photo shoot are being unreasonable or unrealistic, and it fails miserably. Nope. Sorry. On no freaking planet is a (2016) size-16, 170 to 200 pound chick even remotely comparable to a 5'5", 120 pound Marilyn Monroe. Hell, women with stats similar to Marilyn are in the SI Swimsuit edition this year. You have to either be blind or a dunce to say otherwise.

I did read my sources by the way, and there's nothing in them that conflicts with anything I've said here today. I never said that beauty standards don't change at all; I even conceded that there is some room for variation in the narrower category of "what most men generally find attractive." All I've argued is (1) that there is and has been remarkable consistency in what is considered sexually attractive through time and across cultures; (2) being what is nowadays considered medically overweight/obese is not and never has been one of the characteristics that have been considered sexually attractive; (3) Ashley Graham, being medically overweight/obese, is simply not what most men consider sexually attractive; and (4) there is a concerted effort by weirdos and perennially angry/bitter people, mostly feminists, to foist fat acceptance on the world as some sort of bizarre revenge fantasy they harbor against pretty girls. You have not effectively challenged any of these points.

 

[RUforJERSEY]

BS big time...
There isn't a person from my dads era alive today that didn't consider over 30 Marilyn chubby....none!
My dad often referred to her as after she "put on weight" we didn't see her anymore

Oh really. None huh? So now you can speak for an entire era of people? I would check with my Dad but his time on this Earth ended last year also. But I don't agree at all that his views would line up with yours. I certainly don't think his ideal was 5'7" 107lbs with 32" hips.

 

[FanuSanu52]

BS big time...
There isn't a person from my dads era alive today that didn't consider over 30 Marilyn chubby....none!
My dad often referred to her as after she "put on weight" we didn't see her anymore

"my dad's era" and "didn't" indicate the past. I was talking about the modern day - the place where she's still an icon respected for her beauty. So no, not "bs big time"

 

[RU-Nation]

 

[zappaa]

Her beauty was never in question.'She simply put on weight when she got a little older.
I think I can end this discussion, Marlilyn at the same age as these current SI models would do quite well by today's standards.
Those pictures you are using Fanu are far from her early twenties

 

[FanuSanu52]

No, they wouldn't. You have no way of proving that they would, nor a basis for thinking they would. The only model who is being "protested" is Ashley Graham, and she's positively gargantuan compared to Marilyn, even using the Marilyn pictures you posted for a comparison between the two. That's the only argument you've furthered to support the position that those of us who think Graham shouldn't be within a mile of a swimsuit photo shoot are being unreasonable or unrealistic, and it fails miserably. Nope. Sorry. On no freaking planet is a (2016) size-16, 170 to 200 pound chick even remotely comparable to a 5'5", 120 pound Marilyn Monroe. Hell, women with stats similar to Marilyn are in the SI Swimsuit edition this year. You have to either be blind or a dunce to say otherwise.

I did read my sources by the way, and there's nothing in them that conflicts with anything I've said here today. I never said that beauty standards don't change at all; I even conceded that there is some room for variation in the narrower category of "what most men generally find attractive." All I've argued is (1) that there is and has been remarkable consistency in what is considered sexually attractive through time and across cultures; (2) being what is nowadays considered medically overweight/obese is not and never has been one of the characteristics that have been considered sexually attractive; (3) Ashley Graham, being medically overweight/obese, is simply not what most men consider sexually attractive; and (4) there is a concerted effort by weirdos and perennially angry/bitter people, mostly feminists, to foist fat acceptance on the world as some sort of bizarre revenge fantasy they harbor against pretty girls. You have not effectively challenged any of these points.

For someone who purports not to like the chick, you've spent a creepy amount of time analyzing her and posting about her.

"Nothing in them that conflicts with anything I've said here today," huh?

From your FIRST link:

"Writing in Proceedings B, the researchers led by Dr Grazyna Jasienska of Harvard University, said the hourglass figure was popular in Western cultures, but not in others across the world."

Since you clearly don't like reading closely and probably don't want to parse through your own giant paragraph block, I highlighted keywords in it for you so you can understand how your own evidence does indeed conflict with what you've said here today. I'd say it conflicts with the very foundation of your entire argument.

 

[grbRU09]

Not many things more arrogant than some pompous dudes trying to tell you what you should find attractive in women based on their own taste. When it's very tied to your culture as well as personal preference.

Agreed. But no one is doing that in this thread. There's a world of difference between IS and OUGHT.

 

[zappaa]

This is Halarious
Fanu, I'm going to give you some homework my friend. Watch the movie Asphalt Jungle.
Marilyn is 23...report back to me after you see her....:D the movie is cool as well