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COVID-19 Pandemic: Transmissions, Deaths, Treatments, Vaccines, Interventions and More...

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LOL at using "confirmed cases" and fake fatality rates. This entire post is pointless. Well done!
:)

Almost all the numbers are from worldometers, except for my comments on infection fatality rates, which you know are currently correct. As of early May, 24,000 deaths in NY due to coronavirus and a NY state antibody prevalence of 12%, which is 2.4MM people (out of 20MM total), so the IFR is 24K/2.4MM, which is - wait for it - 1.0% (and Spain's is 1.2%). That is the only statewide true, current IFR we have. It is inarguable. Once again you offer nothing but trolling.
 
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LOL. Almost 3/4 of all HTN is due to.....wait for it.....wait for it.....just wait a little more:

Obesity!
[roll]
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-020-0364-6.pdf


Among 4,103 patients with COVID-19 at an academic health system in New York City, BMI >40 kg/m2 was the second strongest independent predictor of hospitalization, after old age.

41574_2020_364_Fig1_HTML.png
 
Thank you @wisr1 for your discovery, posting, and link to the Nature article. It is this kind of information I come to this forum for. And I agree with T2K that it is a good graphic.

BUT WHAT DOES IT EFFECTIVELY MEAN?

First of all, as good science does / good scientists do, the authors of the Nature article do indicate clearly that their results are preliminary and more reporting is needed.

Still, common experience illustrates that obesity is a key link to all sorts of morbidities, now to which I suppose we might reasonably confidently add increased likelihood of hospitalizations from COVID-19.

The issue remains however is that high BMI isn't something that one simply wishes away! Even before COVID-19, obesity was identified as one of the scourges of our society and hundreds of millions of $s spent on efforts to try and control it. Effecting change in people's behavior is HARD, often thankless, and even more often, fruitless work. Look at what we are in the throes of today - whether it is asking people to social distance, or wear masks, or any of the other changes in all of our lives wrought by this deadly virus. The debate, sometimes sensible, sometimes not, on this forum clearly showcases the furor created by asking people to change behavior.

In a different life, I did a fair amount of work on attempting to enhance "compliance and persistency" to prescribed therapies (which simply means taking the pills for one's chronic conditions correctly as prescribed), and that was hard. One of the more amazing facts I learned as part of that work was that even people who could DIE from not taking their pills correctly would be almost just as non-adherent on average as people taking pills for their hypertension! Getting people to exercise more, eat differently, become "less obese" - HAH! I am of the belief (actually I am certain) that not even an increased threat of hospitalization from COVID-19 will cause a dent in this other epidemic.

So what this new data for me at least is provide some increased sense of safety that if/when I get infected I have a slightly lower chance of being hospitalized. Which is good, I suppose, but it unfortunately does very little to change my behavior in terms of protective action against contracting this condition. Mostly because this is all still a probability game.

To put it as simply as I can, "A low BMI is not a guarantee to avoid hospitalization".
 
To put it as simply as I can, "A low BMI is not a guarantee to avoid hospitalization".
Of course it is not a guarantee, but it makes your risk of hospitalization much lower:

There are a lot of possible explanations for why Japan has weathered the COVID-19 pandemic better than the United States. It’s possible that the Japanese are more used to wearing masks, that the government used contact tracing to more effectively to contain outbreaks, and that handshakes aren’t a widespread cultural practice. But according to Dariush Mozaffarian, a cardiologist and the dean of the Tufts Friedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy, one of the major reasons Japan is dealing with the coronavirus more successfully than the United States is because of another problem: obesity.

America has one of the highest rates of obesity in the developed world, and Japan has one of the lowest. And it’s obesity that’s making America’s response to COVID-19 much more difficult.

How difficult? According to a recent study of COVID-19 hospitalizations in New York City, it’s a major concern.

“If someone has moderate obesity … they’re about four-fold more likely to be hospitalized. If they have severe obesity … they have a six-fold higher risk of being hospitalized,” Mozaffarian said. Obesity was more important in determining hospitalization than high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer or kidney disease. In fact, after age, it was the biggest factor driving hospitalizations.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/lifestyle/2020/06/12/a-tale-of-two-pandemics-covid-19-and-obesity
 
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@T2K, you say "Of course it is not a guarantee, but it makes your risk of hospitalization much lower".

I want you to be right. Any chance you could quantify your use of the word "much". It was precisely my inability to quantify which caused me pause.

Note - I am NOT writing my post as a challenge. Nor am I seeking absolute quantification. Not at all. Even a mathematically justifiable range of reduction (say by BMI range) will do. I don't think we have this yet, but as I said, I'd like to be wrong.

After all, the more I am able to personally quantify the degree of reduced risk, the more likely I am to be freer with my own travel, movements, etc. So I am asking with a genuine desire to know more. Thanks

After I wrote the above, I see that you had posted a link to a different study which talked about obesity. My bad. I will look it up. Thanks for the links!
 
@T2K, you say "Of course it is not a guarantee, but it makes your risk of hospitalization much lower".

I want you to be right. Any chance you could quantify your use of the word "much". It was precisely my inability to quantify which caused me pause.

Note - I am NOT writing my post as a challenge. Nor am I seeking absolute quantification. Not at all. Even a mathematically justifiable range of reduction (say by BMI range) will do. I don't think we have this yet, but as I said, I'd like to be wrong.

After all, the more I am able to personally quantify the degree of reduced risk, the more likely I am to be freer with my own travel, movements, etc. So I am asking with a genuine desire to know more. Thanks

After I wrote the above, I see that you had posted a link to a different study which talked about obesity. My bad. I will look it up. Thanks for the links!
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/oby.22831

Study found that people with BMI > 35 were 6.75 more likely to need mech vents than those with BMI < 25. Odds ratios for diabetes/no diabetes and HTN/no HTN were 2.5 and 2.8.
 
@T2K, you say "Of course it is not a guarantee, but it makes your risk of hospitalization much lower".

I want you to be right. Any chance you could quantify your use of the word "much". It was precisely my inability to quantify which caused me pause.

Note - I am NOT writing my post as a challenge. Nor am I seeking absolute quantification. Not at all. Even a mathematically justifiable range of reduction (say by BMI range) will do. I don't think we have this yet, but as I said, I'd like to be wrong.

After all, the more I am able to personally quantify the degree of reduced risk, the more likely I am to be freer with my own travel, movements, etc. So I am asking with a genuine desire to know more. Thanks

After I wrote the above, I see that you had posted a link to a different study which talked about obesity. My bad. I will look it up. Thanks for the links!
As per Dariush Mozaffarian, a cardiologist and the dean of the Tufts Friedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy the benefit is 4 fold versus moderately obese and 6 fold versus severely obese.

Oops, just saw your edit and last sentence.....that you already saw this data from my previous post. Thanks!
 
Interesting discrepancy between worldometers new cases for Florida, and the Florida dashboard that I think is worth noting.

Worldometer new cases for the last 3 days.

1698
1902
2625

FL Dashboard.

1.6K
2.3K
2.2K

So the dashboard doesn't go into precise #'s, (I don't think that is an interesting point) but overall the #'s for those 3 days are very similar.

But if we are to believe the dashboard is more accurate for distributing cases to dates, then those #'s, while still troubling, are not nearly as troubling as what the Worldometer's #'s are showing which signal more of a spike.

Now, as I've noted a bunch of times, FL is very slow to allocate deaths to a specific date, and thus gives what looks like a perpetually down sloping trend, so I'm not sure their new case #'s should be the one we lean on, even if they are the official #'s.

Side note: still waiting on the dashboard to post total tests and positivity rate for the week.
 
But according to Dariush Mozaffarian, a cardiologist and the dean of the Tufts Friedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy, one of the major reasons Japan is dealing with the coronavirus more successfully than the United States is because of another problem: obesity.

How difficult? According to a recent study of COVID-19 hospitalizations in New York City, it’s a major concern.

“If someone has moderate obesity … they’re about four-fold more likely to be hospitalized. If they have severe obesity … they have a six-fold higher risk of being hospitalized,” Mozaffarian said. Obesity was more important in determining hospitalization than high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer or kidney disease. In fact, after age, it was the biggest factor driving hospitalizations.

https://www.wgbh.org/news/lifestyle/2020/06/12/a-tale-of-two-pandemics-covid-19-and-obesity

It doesnt explain the high infection and death rates in China who has between a 5 and 6% rate of obesity and who are highly speculated of waaaay underestimating their CV19 stats. Maybe they were all hypertensive like many of the peer reviewed studies have shown. Again, not discounting obesity in relation to health issues one iota, it's just not the leading comorbidity in adverse outcomes from CV-19.
 
Possible narrative change here.

But FL dashboard reporting a decrease in positivity rate. 4.67 down to 4.24.

Still waiting on actual #'s, and the dashboard was reporting a 3.67% for this week this morning that was then removed, but if the above is correct, then that makes FL much less disturbing.
 
Too*, learn english, and I am happy they shut it down. You cherry pick what you say. Show me the post where I said we can't leave our house until a vaccine. I called you out on it last night. You didn't link the post, and stopped responding. We know why. You don't even know that masks work, you deny it. Numbers corrects you on it daily, about outside transmission. You also claimed the virus is coming to the end of its cycle. You just made that up, you had no idea what you were talking about. I expect just like last night you won't show me the post where I said we shouldn't go outside until there is a vaccine.
I
Do you think wishing the pandemic away and just having happy talk is the answer? Yes, he can be a bit over the top, but the tweets he's posting aren't "fake news."
LOL..what am I wrong about? HTN was the number one risk factor in a 5700 person study. You completely ignore that. Without considering renal impairment, smoking habits, alcohol consumption, salt intake, race, family history, stress, sleep deprivation, etc..you can't come to the conclusion in this study that all or even most of the hypertensive patients are obese. Try and get a peer reviewed article using that logic and you will be laughed out the door.
Thank you @wisr1 for your discovery, posting, and link to the Nature article. It is this kind of information I come to this forum for. And I agree with T2K that it is a good graphic.

BUT WHAT DOES IT EFFECTIVELY MEAN?

First of all, as good science does / good scientists do, the authors of the Nature article do indicate clearly that their results are preliminary and more reporting is needed.

Still, common experience illustrates that obesity is a key link to all sorts of morbidities, now to which I suppose we might reasonably confidently add increased likelihood of hospitalizations from COVID-19.

The issue remains however is that high BMI isn't something that one simply wishes away! Even before COVID-19, obesity was identified as one of the scourges of our society and hundreds of millions of $s spent on efforts to try and control it. Effecting change in people's behavior is HARD, often thankless, and even more often, fruitless work. Look at what we are in the throes of today - whether it is asking people to social distance, or wear masks, or any of the other changes in all of our lives wrought by this deadly virus. The debate, sometimes sensible, sometimes not, on this forum clearly showcases the furor created by asking people to change behavior.

In a different life, I did a fair amount of work on attempting to enhance "compliance and persistency" to prescribed therapies (which simply means taking the pills for one's chronic conditions correctly as prescribed), and that was hard. One of the more amazing facts I learned as part of that work was that even people who could DIE from not taking their pills correctly would be almost just as non-adherent on average as people taking pills for their hypertension! Getting people to exercise more, eat differently, become "less obese" - HAH! I am of the belief (actually I am certain) that not even an increased threat of hospitalization from COVID-19 will cause a dent in this other epidemic.

So what this new data for me at least is provide some increased sense of safety that if/when I get infected I have a slightly lower chance of being hospitalized. Which is good, I suppose, but it unfortunately does very little to change my behavior in terms of protective action against contracting this condition. Mostly because this is all still a probability game.

To put it as simply as I can, "A low BMI is not a guarantee to avoid hospitalization".
Obesity is an issue with this virus along with a number of other comorbidities ... you could be considered obese at 6’0” 195lbs. by insurance actuaries and really not be in danger ...with what I have witnessed at Rutgers football games over the years 40 percent of those over age 40 would be considered “ dead meat”... combine the excessive drinking and cigar crowd ... yeah most are screwed ...
 
Risk assessment ratings by public health experts in Michigan on 36 various activities.

From the article:

“There’s a huge amount of variation from business to business, from area to area, in how much transmission risk there is for resuming economic activity,” Dr. Katherine Baicker, of the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy, told Yahoo Finance’s The Ticker.

An analysis by MLive chose 36 American activities and asked four public health experts in Michigan to evaluate the risk of coronavirus exposure for each one. The doctors factored in whether the activity is inside or outside, proximity to others, length of potential exposure, likelihood of compliance, and personal risk level.

The experts gave a score to each activity, with 1 being the least risky and 10 being the riskiest, and MLive averaged their scores to come up with a ranking.

Bars, large music concerts, and packed sports stadiums are the riskiest places, according to experts, because of large groups of people congregating together with little room to keep at least six feet apart.

a80be580-aced-11ea-afdd-16c0583366f4


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/coronavirus-health-experts-ranked-activities-risk-132702304.html
 
Interesting discrepancy between worldometers new cases for Florida, and the Florida dashboard that I think is worth noting.

Worldometer new cases for the last 3 days.

1698
1902
2625

FL Dashboard.

1.6K
2.3K
2.2K

So the dashboard doesn't go into precise #'s, (I don't think that is an interesting point) but overall the #'s for those 3 days are very similar.

But if we are to believe the dashboard is more accurate for distributing cases to dates, then those #'s, while still troubling, are not nearly as troubling as what the Worldometer's #'s are showing which signal more of a spike.

Now, as I've noted a bunch of times, FL is very slow to allocate deaths to a specific date, and thus gives what looks like a perpetually down sloping trend, so I'm not sure their new case #'s should be the one we lean on, even if they are the official #'s.

Side note: still waiting on the dashboard to post total tests and positivity rate for the week.
If you add up both sets of numbers for those 3 days it’s basicaly the same total
 
Risk assessment ratings by public health experts in Michigan on 36 various activities.

From the article:

“There’s a huge amount of variation from business to business, from area to area, in how much transmission risk there is for resuming economic activity,” Dr. Katherine Baicker, of the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy, told Yahoo Finance’s The Ticker.

An analysis by MLive chose 36 American activities and asked four public health experts in Michigan to evaluate the risk of coronavirus exposure for each one. The doctors factored in whether the activity is inside or outside, proximity to others, length of potential exposure, likelihood of compliance, and personal risk level.

The experts gave a score to each activity, with 1 being the least risky and 10 being the riskiest, and MLive averaged their scores to come up with a ranking.

Bars, large music concerts, and packed sports stadiums are the riskiest places, according to experts, because of large groups of people congregating together with little room to keep at least six feet apart.

a80be580-aced-11ea-afdd-16c0583366f4


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/coronavirus-health-experts-ranked-activities-risk-132702304.html

I don't see protests in the chart
 
Risk assessment ratings by public health experts in Michigan on 36 various activities.

From the article:

“There’s a huge amount of variation from business to business, from area to area, in how much transmission risk there is for resuming economic activity,” Dr. Katherine Baicker, of the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy, told Yahoo Finance’s The Ticker.

An analysis by MLive chose 36 American activities and asked four public health experts in Michigan to evaluate the risk of coronavirus exposure for each one. The doctors factored in whether the activity is inside or outside, proximity to others, length of potential exposure, likelihood of compliance, and personal risk level.

The experts gave a score to each activity, with 1 being the least risky and 10 being the riskiest, and MLive averaged their scores to come up with a ranking.

Bars, large music concerts, and packed sports stadiums are the riskiest places, according to experts, because of large groups of people congregating together with little room to keep at least six feet apart.

a80be580-aced-11ea-afdd-16c0583366f4


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/coronavirus-health-experts-ranked-activities-risk-132702304.html
Explain to me why Tennis is level 1 and Golf is level 3? That doesn't make sense unless they think everyone takes a riding cart (which is far from true around here). With golf, you are typically 200-300 yards away from others. Even in your own foursome, most people never get more than 6 feet from each other. I can't see much difference between the 2 sports.
 
Explain to me why Tennis is level 1 and Golf is level 3? That doesn't make sense unless they think everyone takes a riding cart (which is far from true around here). With golf, you are typically 200-300 yards away from others. Even in your own foursome, most people never get more than 6 feet from each other. I can't see much difference between the 2 sports.

Many of those inclusions don't make much sense.
 
On top of the news yesterday about the importance of face masks in preventing COVID spread in that salon in Missouri, comes a really well done research article (peer-reviewed and in the prestigious Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences) saying essentially the same thing. Rather than summarizing it, here's the abstract, so people can read for themselves. The bottom line is if one can't maintain social distancing in public (indoors or outdoors), which is very difficult in some work, travel and entertainment situations, wear a mask. Period.

Abstract
Various mitigation measures have been implemented to fight the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic, including widely adopted social distancing and mandated face covering. However, assessing the effectiveness of those intervention practices hinges on the understanding of virus transmission, which remains uncertain. Here we show that airborne transmission is highly virulent and represents the dominant route to spread the disease. By analyzing the trend and mitigation measures in Wuhan, China, Italy, and New York City, from January 23 to May 9, 2020, we illustrate that the impacts of mitigation measures are discernable from the trends of the pandemic. Our analysis reveals that the difference with and without mandated face covering represents the determinant in shaping the pandemic trends in the three epicenters. This protective measure alone significantly reduced the number of infections, that is, by over 78,000 in Italy from April 6 to May 9 and over 66,000 in New York City from April 17 to May 9. Other mitigation measures, such as social distancing implemented in the United States, are insufficient by themselves in protecting the public. We conclude that wearing of face masks in public corresponds to the most effective means to prevent interhuman transmission, and this inexpensive practice, in conjunction with simultaneous social distancing, quarantine, and contact tracing, represents the most likely fighting opportunity to stop the COVID-19 pandemic. Our work also highlights the fact that sound science is essential in decision-making for the current and future public health pandemics.

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/06/10/2009637117

Additional compelling analysis of why masks work from Nassim Nicholas Taleb, the noted hedge fund manager, mathematical statistician, essayist, and most famously, author of the great book, "The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable" which anticipated such a Black Swan event, in the 2008 financial crisis (from which he and his investors profited handsomely). His article, in Medium, does a fantastic job of outlining the key flawed assumptions that many have made along the way in not calling for masks to be worn by everyone from the beginning.

These are: "1) missing the compounding effects of masks, 2) missing the nonlinearity of the probability of infection to viral exposures, 3) missing absence of evidence (of benefits of mask wearing) for evidence of absence (of benefits of mask wearing), 4) missing the point that people do not need governments to produce facial covering: they can make their own, 5) missing the compounding effects of statistical signals, 6) ignoring the Non-Aggression Principle by pseudolibertarians (masks are also to protect others from you."

I've talked about #1 many times with regard to how much better it is with everyone wearing masks: if one looks at most interactions as being pair-wise, reducing the risk of transmission by half for one person wearing a mask means that for a pair of people, the risk is reduced by 3/4 (1-(1/2 x 1/2)). And worn properly, as per research shared before, the risk reduction for one person wearing a mask can be 75% or more (95% for an N95 mask), meaning for a 75% reduction for 2 people, that's a 94% overall reduction.

Point #2 on non-linearity is explained really well by Taleb with a nice graphic of the dose response curve, below, where it's well known that reducing the viral load exposure by 1/2, for example, produces a much lower risk of infection than 1/2, as dose response curves are usually non-linear near the floor of the dose. Very few have articulated this well, but it's fundamentally why I've been harping on the masks inside or outside if one can't keep to >6 feet distance, which is a second example where non-linearity comes into play. The dose one gets at 3 feet, for example, isn't 2X the dose one would get at 6 feet - it's about 4 times more (the dose should be proportional to the square of the distance difference, i.e., 36 vs. 9, which is non-linear, instead of 6 vs. 3, which would be linear).

The rest of the article is pretty good, too. I especially like his way of phrasing #3, i.e, "mistaking absence of evidence for evidence of absence." And we've talked before about how the "libertarian" argument falls apart vs. the "do no harm" principle. Anyway, the one thing I think he missed was sharing how effective mask wearing has been in many countries, especially Japan, which has not implemented all the interventions some other countries have (a lot less testing than SK, for example) and no lockdowns, but they're close to 100% compliant with mask-wearing and have fantastic results so far in achieving low trasnmissions/deaths. Worth reading and please, wear your mask if you're not sure you can keep to more than 6 feet from others.

Taleb Article in Medium


7o3Pcaw.png
 
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Risk assessment ratings by public health experts in Michigan on 36 various activities.

From the article:

“There’s a huge amount of variation from business to business, from area to area, in how much transmission risk there is for resuming economic activity,” Dr. Katherine Baicker, of the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy, told Yahoo Finance’s The Ticker.

An analysis by MLive chose 36 American activities and asked four public health experts in Michigan to evaluate the risk of coronavirus exposure for each one. The doctors factored in whether the activity is inside or outside, proximity to others, length of potential exposure, likelihood of compliance, and personal risk level.

The experts gave a score to each activity, with 1 being the least risky and 10 being the riskiest, and MLive averaged their scores to come up with a ranking.

Bars, large music concerts, and packed sports stadiums are the riskiest places, according to experts, because of large groups of people congregating together with little room to keep at least six feet apart.

a80be580-aced-11ea-afdd-16c0583366f4


https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/coronavirus-health-experts-ranked-activities-risk-132702304.html

gotta feel sorry for bar owners. I don’t see them opening up (indoors), anywhere close to full capacity, until there is a vaccine.
 
gotta feel sorry for bar owners. I don’t see them opening up (indoors), anywhere close to full capacity, until there is a vaccine.
Actually you would be surprised a number of states are already letting them open up with 50 percent or more capacity or will within the next few weeks
 
Here’s the kicker on all this...You wear a mask great but if you have 1-2 or more comorbidities you could die... btw : while out for a short 3 mile walk with the Mrs. ran into an old friend who is 74 and still working for a mega pharmaceutical company in N.J...an engineer by trade he has a pretty good understanding of what is not good... from the beginning Medical professionals and epidemiologists were giving us false hopes at when therapeutics or a vaccine / vaccines would be if ever available... said he was not overly optimistic and the reality is we are still getting mixed messages from science and state and federal government... So wear a mask ... social distance if you can... try to live as close to normal as possible... The best part ... “ most vaccines take maybe 10 years...we needed to start this back in the early 2000’s.” He’s been with this company for many years...Feels therapeutics is the ONLY help we can expect...maybe?
 
This is from two days ago:

https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/...floyd-early-test-results-show-few-protesters/

Early data from coronavirus tests of Minnesotans who participated in demonstrations after the death of George Floyd suggest the mass gatherings may not result in a spike in COVID-19 infections.

We're now a solid two weeks when the Minneapolis protests went full bloom, if there is no spike from this, then either it's gotten weaker or we're missing something else about this virus, which is understandable considering we're only months into this epidemic and if anything is clear its that this has been one coy virus.
 
This is from two days ago:

https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/...floyd-early-test-results-show-few-protesters/

Early data from coronavirus tests of Minnesotans who participated in demonstrations after the death of George Floyd suggest the mass gatherings may not result in a spike in COVID-19 infections.

We're now a solid two weeks when the Minneapolis protests went full bloom, if there is no spike from this, then either it's gotten weaker or we're missing something else about this virus, which is understandable considering we're only months into this epidemic and if anything is clear its that this has been one coy virus.
Or masks and outdoors works or the mostly young protestors have had minor symptoms and haven’t got tested or haven’t had symptoms at all. Nyc had record lows in their positive percentage this week also though
 
If you add up both sets of numbers for those 3 days it’s basicaly the same total
I did note that.

And maybe I'm making a bigger deal of the distribution then I should.

But 17-19-26 looks so much more like a spike, then 17-23-22.

Then factor in a slightly lower positivity rate(still a little skeptical here as they have yet to announce actual #'s like they have for past weeks) and a bit of a dip in new cases today, it's just less spikey then I originally thought.
 
Or masks and outdoors works or the mostly young protestors have had minor symptoms and haven’t got tested or haven’t had symptoms at all. Nyc had record lows in their positive percentage this week also though

Agree on masks, and the outdoor aspect.

There are other things to consider too such as:

-As we've seen in the southern states with their reopenings it does take awhile for the growth to show itself. You noted this recently in pointing out exponential growth does take a bit to kick in.

-If 40K people in Minnesota are protesting for a week, that is still less interaction then 20 million Floridians going about typical day to day interactions for a month.

Now I do think those protest were very likely transmission points, I don't think we should deny that, but they might not be as bad as they seem on the surface.
 
Agree on masks, and the outdoor aspect.

There are other things to consider too such as:

-As we've seen in the southern states with their reopenings it does take awhile for the growth to show itself. You noted this recently in pointing out exponential growth does take a bit to kick in.

-If 40K people in Minnesota are protesting for a week, that is still less interaction then 20 million Floridians going about typical day to day interactions for a month.

Now I do think those protest were very likely transmission points, I don't think we should deny that, but they might not be as bad as they seem on the surface.
Agreed. I would be shocked if they weren’t. But I hope to be surprised and shocked even though some posters here think I want spread for some odd reason. The one thing about this virus so far is that it does what it wants regarding a timeline not what we necessarily expect.
 
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I was very reluctant to wear a mask back in March, but the minute I put one on it was apparent that these things were effective.

We had a debate about it fairly early on, then we had another maybe a month ago, and I found it hard to believe at that time that people were still fighting against the idea that masks work.

Fast fwd another month, this thing is spreading through the south and they still have not gotten the message that masks work. The key to getting the economy up and running (as much as possible anyways, as unfortunately masks are not practical in every setting). Very frustrating.
 
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This is from two days ago:

https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/...floyd-early-test-results-show-few-protesters/

Early data from coronavirus tests of Minnesotans who participated in demonstrations after the death of George Floyd suggest the mass gatherings may not result in a spike in COVID-19 infections.

We're now a solid two weeks when the Minneapolis protests went full bloom, if there is no spike from this, then either it's gotten weaker or we're missing something else about this virus, which is understandable considering we're only months into this epidemic and if anything is clear its that this has been one coy virus.
No, the obvious explanation is, once again, masks work. At least 50% were wearing masks and just that is enough to halve the transmission rate - plus transmission is a dose-response phenomenon, meaning one has to be in close contact for more than a few seconds to be infected and people weren't packed in like sardines for the most part (i.e., there was some distancing). My prediction was small spikes at most from the protests. There is zero evidence for the virus weakening.
 
Here’s the kicker on all this...You wear a mask great but if you have 1-2 or more comorbidities you could die... btw : while out for a short 3 mile walk with the Mrs. ran into an old friend who is 74 and still working for a mega pharmaceutical company in N.J...an engineer by trade he has a pretty good understanding of what is not good... from the beginning Medical professionals and epidemiologists were giving us false hopes at when therapeutics or a vaccine / vaccines would be if ever available... said he was not overly optimistic and the reality is we are still getting mixed messages from science and state and federal government... So wear a mask ... social distance if you can... try to live as close to normal as possible... The best part ... “ most vaccines take maybe 10 years...we needed to start this back in the early 2000’s.” He’s been with this company for many years...Feels therapeutics is the ONLY help we can expect...maybe?

Go back and re-read my post on the incredible scientific advancement we've already seen on many levels. Nobody gave false hope of treatments other than the POTUS and Fox on HCQ - I've said dozens of times (mostly based on input from world class experts where I used to work and reading many expert opinions on line) that I didn't expect more than modest improvements from any existing therapies and that major improvements likely had to wait for convalescent plasma (looking promising) and moreso, engineered antibodies, which could be a near cure by September. And from day one, most experts have said 18 months for a vaccine would be incredibly fast with 12 months being almost impossible - well, we're probably going to make or even beat 12 months (counting from February).

But we can keep transmissions close to zero if everybody would practice distancing where possible and always wearing masks when closer than 6 feet away, indoors or outdoors. That's the most important message for everyone, but unfortunately we don't have government leadership who is sending that message and sending it regularly - people should be seeing government sponsored PSAs about these things every 10 minutes on TV. In the successful countries, the leadership has united their people behind these messages, framing it as everyone fighting together against a common enemy - the virus (not each other).
 
. The one thing about this virus so far is that it does what it wants regarding a timeline not what we necessarily expect.

Again goes back to your point about exponential growth, 1 person being sick is just not going to spread it to 10K people directly. Even in a large crowd, if one person spreads it to 10 people and those people spread it to another 10, and those 100 spread it to 10 more people, we are still only at 1111 new cases total. It takes time for it to build.

It's after that, that it starts to accelerate rapidly, to 10K, and then 100K.

Even in this example I am using a much higher rate of spread, (which may be appropriate given the #'s gathered in the protest?) at a more common rate of spread it's apparent that the results of high numbers are not going to happen quickly.

That likely should have been the messaging from lefty media at the openings of southern states. Instead their message sounded like the impact would be evident immediately, which didn't happen, and thus the righty's said, look they are wrong, there really is nothing to fear here.
 
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