Caleb and Cody Martin

[Greene Rice FIG]

I still am a bit concerned about this as they may be outstanding players but we could tie up 2 scholarships for 3 years to play 2 or two years and only get one year of their playing and graduating and than leave as a grad transfer. They both play small forward and we already have Lauent and either Bullock and possibly Thiam. Signing them may also cause us not to have two scholarships for 2017 or 2018 potential players. I think Pikiell will make the right decision.

I think their ability/inability to defend is going to be critical. Let's also be honest here.....Thiam isn't here yet and has never played college basketball. Bullock is a huge question mark as a guy still on the board late. We like Jonathan Laurent, but on a team that is a middle of the pack B1G I am not sure if he isn't a 3rd/4th guy off the bench (time will tell).

Yes we have 3 guys at the position, but there is still a need for more.

 

[PaKnight]

I think their ability/inability to defend is going to be critical. Let's also be honest here.....Thiam isn't here yet and has never played college basketball. Bullock is a huge question mark as a guy still on the board late. We like Jonathan Laurent, but on a team that is a middle of the pack B1G I am not sure if he isn't a 3rd/4th guy off the bench (time will tell).

Yes we have 3 guys at the position, but there is still a need for more.

If BK is correct, Thiam may be unlikely. Bullock is probably 6'3" or 4".

 

[PhilaPhans]

If BK is correct, Thiam may be unlikely. Bullock is probably 6'3" or 4".

I think he's closer to 6'3 than 4". :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

 

[PiscatawayMike]

I've got a positive feeling about the twins and RU. When it's all said and done, Pikes will "clean up" in this recruiting situation.

 

[mikemarc1]

Do the twins have to sit out a year or are they elligible now?

 

[MadRU]

Do the twins have to sit out a year or are they elligible now?

Sit out a year

 

[mikemarc1]

Sit out a year

Thanks.

 

[Fzacsattac]

You DO realize that the "less" talented brother is still, likely, more talented than most of our roster, right?

Lol

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

You have to consider what two JUCO's are going to be as good, or what 2 freshman are going to be as good for the 2017 recruiting class. This gives insurance to allow the team to practice because we cannot assume that Diallo, Doorson and Freeman will be able to simulate in practice what the staff needs to make the improvements. You need better athletes and players to simulate opponents strengths.

I think the primary reasons are in 2017-18, if you have Sa, Freeman, the Twins along with Laurent, Doorson, Diallo in the fold, if you added Thiam, you would have finally restocked the roster with some experience (Freeman and Sa would be seniors, Martin twins, Laurent would be a more than solid junior and Thiam would be a sophomore leading the underclassman along with Bullock. The other upperclassmen would be Mike Williams, Nigel Johnson so we would be top heavy with upperclassmen....Sanders would be obviously the wildcard of whether he stays but my guess would be he's here for next year and headed to the next level afterwards.

The key is finding a lead guard and shooting guard for 2017 HS recruiting that can contribute and run the offense and then getting the pieces on defense to work together. Martin twins may be the pieces that strengthen the roster enough to make the difference in Year one without actually playing. The redshirting aspect of sitting out may actually benefit RU next year by forcing the development of Laurent and others like Sa and Bullock to play and compete in Year One. Sometimes sitting on the bench in Year One isn't for everyone and you lose players early in their career due to lack of playing time.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Patience is needed. We don't have to snap at the 1st opportunity. Pikiell IS contacting HS coaches and laying the foundation of the program. If the twins fit great, if not pass.

The shelf doesn't need to be stocked by November....especially with ? marks.

Jordan made huge mistakes bringing in flawed or toxic pieces in to the program just to fill the shelves. I trust Pikiell will know better.

 

[knights1212]

I just read on Carino that the twins should be at the RAC tomorrow. I like Hawk's point of view. He is always so far thought out. He makes some really good points. Maybe the twins can really help us for the 2017-18 season and prepare us in their year sitting out. I'm certain that Pikiell will make the correct decision. I still think we need Thiam and possibly a 5th year grad student for this coming season. We do need to get much better soon to get better recruits to consider us.

 

[motel00]

Hawk,

I agree Sanders will WANT to go to the next level after this year but do you think he'll likely get there? I don't have in my head the class likely to come out in 2017 but am just thinking of his skill set, strength and experience. I think he should be thinking of staying 2 more years before trying to get to the NBA.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I hope Sanders got some type of advice. If I was a NBA GM what I would need to see from Sanders over the next 2 years coincides perfectly with what we need from him.

continuity
in shape
no discipline/off court stuff

I actually believe Sanders going through the process of seeing where he was at could have/should have been viewed negatively.

 

[Richie O]

 

[Scarlet Shack]

Here is the question to be asking ourselves

Here is 2017-2018

Sr (4) Freemen/Johnson/Williams/Sa
Jr (4) Sanders/Laurent/Doorson/Diallo
So (1) Bullock
Fr (0) ????

the question to be asking ourselves is do you want a scenario where you sign Thiam AND the Martin twins and having only one to give for the class of 2017?

So it needs to be EITHER Thiam (having three to give for the class of 2017)....OR the twins (having two to give for the class of 2017)

From a roster balance stand point...I am not crazy about having 4 seniors and 6 juniors on the roster...

But we need talent....so I'll defer to Coach Steve P here as he has the better handle on how recruiting is going and where we can be this November....we have a lot of catching up to do

 

[eja92]

You have to consider what two JUCO's are going to be as good, or what 2 freshman are going to be as good for the 2017 recruiting class. This gives insurance to allow the team to practice because we cannot assume that Diallo, Doorson and Freeman will be able to simulate in practice what the staff needs to make the improvements. You need better athletes and players to simulate opponents strengths.

I think the primary reasons are in 2017-18, if you have Sa, Freeman, the Twins along with Laurent, Doorson, Diallo in the fold, if you added Thiam, you would have finally restocked the roster with some experience (Freeman and Sa would be seniors, Martin twins, Laurent would be a more than solid junior and Thiam would be a sophomore leading the underclassman along with Bullock. The other upperclassmen would be Mike Williams, Nigel Johnson so we would be top heavy with upperclassmen....Sanders would be obviously the wildcard of whether he stays but my guess would be he's here for next year and headed to the next level afterwards.

The key is finding a lead guard and shooting guard for 2017 HS recruiting that can contribute and run the offense and then getting the pieces on defense to work together. Martin twins may be the pieces that strengthen the roster enough to make the difference in Year one without actually playing. The redshirting aspect of sitting out may actually benefit RU next year by forcing the development of Laurent and others like Sa and Bullock to play and compete in Year One. Sometimes sitting on the bench in Year One isn't for everyone and you lose players early in their career due to lack of playing time.

IMO you can't worry about "only" getting two years out of talented players. As Hawk points out, the presence of good players in practice will make the entire roster better. This staff is going to emphasize player development more than RU fans are used to, so this is a no-brainer if these kids work with what Pikiell wants to do.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Here is the question to be asking ourselves

Here is 2017-2018

Sr (4) Freemen/Johnson/Williams/Sa
Jr (4) Sanders/Laurent/Doorson/Diallo
So (1) Bullock
Fr (0) ????

the question to be asking ourselves is do you want a scenario where you sign Thiam AND the Martin twins and having only one to give for the class of 2017?

So it needs to be EITHER Thiam (having three to give for the class of 2017)....OR the twins (having two to give for the class of 2017)

From a roster balance stand point...I am not crazy about having 4 seniors and 6 juniors on the roster...

But we need talent....so I'll defer to Coach Steve P here as he has the better handle on how recruiting is going and where we can be this November....we have a lot of catching up to do

That would set you up for 2021-22 NCAA tournament run if Pikiel can recruit and coach :smiley:

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The players replacing those 10 are currently sophomore and freshman in HS. Kids who are older than that already have been heavily recruited........and practice facility is closer to completion

 

[AshCatchEm]

Here is the question to be asking ourselves

Here is 2017-2018

Sr (4) Freemen/Johnson/Williams/Sa
Jr (4) Sanders/Laurent/Doorson/Diallo
So (1) Bullock
Fr (0) ????

the question to be asking ourselves is do you want a scenario where you sign Thiam AND the Martin twins and having only one to give for the class of 2017?

So it needs to be EITHER Thiam (having three to give for the class of 2017)....OR the twins (having two to give for the class of 2017)

From a roster balance stand point...I am not crazy about having 4 seniors and 6 juniors on the roster...

But we need talent....so I'll defer to Coach Steve P here as he has the better handle on how recruiting is going and where we can be this November....we have a lot of catching up to do

That assumes well have 0 transfers...which I think is kind of farfetched

 

[RU at the shore]

Here is the question to be asking ourselves

Here is 2017-2018

Sr (4) Freemen/Johnson/Williams/Sa
Jr (4) Sanders/Laurent/Doorson/Diallo
So (1) Bullock
Fr (0) ????

the question to be asking ourselves is do you want a scenario where you sign Thiam AND the Martin twins and having only one to give for the class of 2017?

So it needs to be EITHER Thiam (having three to give for the class of 2017)....OR the twins (having two to give for the class of 2017)

From a roster balance stand point...I am not crazy about having 4 seniors and 6 juniors on the roster...

But we need talent....so I'll defer to Coach Steve P here as he has the better handle on how recruiting is going and where we can be this November....we have a lot of catching up to do

Agree we would be heavy with juniors, but will all these guys be here ? Would you be at all surprised if at least 3 of the Sr/Jrs on the list were gone ?

 

[RUJMM78]

That would set you up for 2021-22 NCAA tournament run if Pikiel can recruit and coach :smiley:

That would be 30 years without 1 NCAA bid which is too long to wait .There must be a sense of urgency to show marked improvement within the next 3 years.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

That would be 30 years without 1 NCAA bid which is too long to wait .There must be a sense of urgency to show marked improvement within the next 3 years.

I don't want sense of urgency, I want ultimate success. A sense of urgency gets you to take questionable or high risk players. It leads you down the short cut path.

We need a strong leader, who is decisive, and shows progress. The program needs a footprint, an identity.

Think about how long it took Greg Schiano to build the program.....that was not in the B1G.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Agree we would be heavy with juniors, but will all these guys be here ? Would you be at all surprised if at least 3 of the Sr/Jrs on the list were gone ?

Vegas says 2 1/2 don't finish their careers here.

I am in the minority, but I think i like the thought of having some time to fill the meat of the roster. Start the relationship on the ground floor with current HS freshman and sophomore. Bide time for the practice facility to be built.

 

[scarletrat]

IMO, I don't think it is an either/or situation with Thiam and the NC State twins. Piecing things together, Pikell wants and thinks he could win sooner, and we may be making some inroads with the 2018 class, so go with an experienced roster and have more ships then. Agree wildcard is our PG, but maybe that is what we recruit for in 2017. Also, cannot assume there may not be transfer(s) at end of next season--happens to almost every team.

 

[TDIrish27]

I think it's very hard in the world of college basketball today to build a winner from scratch without taking some high risk players.

Witness Seton Hall-----took some kids with some attitudes-----went through the growing pains that comes with it and built a good team.

 

[PhilaPhans]

Are these kids considered to be high risk players? Or just players looking to transfer?

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

I think these kids are a take if they are willing to sign up....after hearing about what could be coming down the pike with recruiting for 2018 (NJ Fab Five just offered would absolutely be a group of kids that can or will be interested in RU), RU would be on the uptick and set up perfectly for a reload with some upperclassman into the program.....it allows for the program to take on some potential attrition into next year if we have players that are not going to earn minutes in Year 2 of Pikiell.

The defensive potential of Year 2 with or without Sanders along with Sa, the Martin Twins and others is enormous. I can see RU launching itself from the outhouse defensively to a Top 80-90 defensive ranking in Year 2, which would allow the offense to develop and grow. The Martin twins probably are looking for minutes and chance to play and if they want to compete and develop, so be it....but they have the potential to score and get stops on the other end, and would be physically ready for B1G play.

The twins provide Freeman and Sanders insurance in case either doesn't last for whatever reason. It also protects the recruiting for '17 and 2018 against another unseen departure, if it happens. I don't think we will see 10 upperclassmen in Year 2, likelihood is that with limited minutes and competition, someone will get squeezed out and there will be 2 to 3 spots for freshman recruiting.

2018 is where Pikiell earns his money and Year 2 is when he gets to show his coaching pedigree.....Year One is foundational, structure building and "how do we want to play"......don't interpret that as others have as a throw away year.....if your goal is to build a program, don't be fooled by wins and losses, there are some programs locally and nationally that have thought something was built because they made strides, but haven't secured anything consistent enough to keep momentum building. Program building is not done with recruiting as much as mindset and how RU wants to play basketball....

From what I've heard, players are buying in and we'll see significant improvement in Year One, without necessarily seeing wins and losses changing much. But it will click very quickly in Year Two if you get the Martin Twins on board.

 

[LC-88]

Great post Hawk. Nailed it.

 

[higgins3]

I think you take them. If they came on this team, you have a lot of potential that could attract recruits. Even if it does not turn out for the best, Pikiell is still the right guy for the job.

 

[RocktheRac]

I haven't been this excited since the Coyle sisters played for RU.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I haven't been this excited since the Coyle sisters played for RU.

I have been this excited since the Pointer sisters sang.

 

[ScarletLongIsland]

I agree with Hawk. Get as much talent as you can and then line ourselves up for a nice recruiting haul in 2018. So Take Thiam and the twins and fill the final ship with grad transfer.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

I do buy into Hawk's scenario as to why we take them....

However...that means in year 4 and 5....under Steve P...we will be very young again.

So we will have to have some patience....especially if the assent in year 2 and year 3 only gets us to around .500 and no NCAA...and then year 4 and 5 are very frosh/soph dominated

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I do buy into Hawk's scenario as to why we take them....

However...that means in year 4 and 5....under Steve P...we will be very young again.

So we will have to have some patience....especially if the assent in year 2 and year 3 only gets us to around .500 and no NCAA...and then year 4 and 5 are very frosh/soph dominated

...which translates nicely to Year 6 and Year 7.

 

[Sideline20]

I do buy into Hawk's scenario as to why we take them....

However...that means in year 4 and 5....under Steve P...we will be very young again.

So we will have to have some patience....especially if the assent in year 2 and year 3 only gets us to around .500 and no NCAA...and then year 4 and 5 are very frosh/soph dominated

Good points Shack......this is where you use the new rules that are in place with graduate transfers- like Louisville did this past season with the additions of Trey Lewis and Damion Lee or what Maryland did with the addition of Rasheed Sulimon (-2 for spelling).

 

[TDIrish27]

He hasn't coached a game yet and you're talking about Year 6 and 7 ?

I don't even buy Green Bananas and I'm supposed to get hopeful about 2022 ?

 

[RUJMM78]

I don't want sense of urgency, I want ultimate success. A sense of urgency gets you to take questionable or high risk players. It leads you down the short cut path.

We need a strong leader, who is decisive, and shows progress. The program needs a footprint, an identity.

Think about how long it took Greg Schiano to build the program.....that was not in the B1G.

None can ensure ultimate success at Rutgers based on recent history.Risks mist be taken because another 5 years of mediocre success will put Pikiell in a similar position to recent head coaches who have failed.To his credit Pikiell has stated that Rutgers must win quickly to change the perception of the program and enhance recruiting.

 

[Scangg]

Any news or feedback from their visit?

 

[Fzacsattac]

Sounds good

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

He hasn't coached a game yet and you're talking about Year 6 and 7 ?

I don't even buy Green Bananas and I'm supposed to get hopeful about 2022 ?

No way Pikiell is thinking Year 6 or 7 for a break thru. He did not bring in this staff with an expectation for a 7 year build.