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OT: Coming to a beach near you in NJ and NY

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Quick question. Are the private windfarm owners going to put money in escrow to take down the aged out or retired windmills? Just curious, because elsewhere folks just go out of business and leave the cleanup of the abandoned wind farm to the local government.
That’s the problem with the abandon oil wells. Luckily, the current government is willing to do something about it.


But one aspect of the package required little to no compromise: the call to cap the millions of orphaned and abandoned oil and gas wells that currently pockmark the country, from Alaska to New York to New Mexico. Whether it’s through the bipartisan infrastructure deal that’s currently being negotiated or through additional, upcoming recovery legislation, tackling this problem is essential—not only because these wells are dangerous polluters but also because doing so would create thousands of jobs in the process.

Taken together, these wells are a major source of air and groundwater pollution, as they continue to leak toxic substances such as arsenic and methane even after they’re no longer operational. But they also represent an all-too-rare point of political consensus: Just about everyone, from the reddest of red-state Republicans to the bluest of blue-state Democrats, agrees that the wells pose a serious threat to public health, that they need to be properly sealed, and that doing so will create jobs while making us all safer, whether from pollution or climate change or both.
 
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If Yahoo! News is saying it's unsubstantiated, there's very likely something there. Basically, whatever Yahoo! News and other Operation Mockingbird assets say, just assume the opposite is true. Works about 90 percent of the time.

You didn't read the article.

Your uninformed ass-talk stems from the fact that you're a moron of the absolute highest order.
 
It’s illegal to possess a whale bone. If you find one you must turn it in

Incorrect.

"You may collect and keep any bones, teeth, or ivory from a non-ESA listed marine mammal found on a beach or land within ¼ of a mile of an ocean, bay, or estuary. You may not collect parts from a carcass or parts with soft tissues attached."
 
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Necropsy completed Friday on the Seaside Park whale. According to the Marine Mammal Stranding Center, among other injuries were a fractured skull and and cuts on it's side that were likely caused by a propeller.
 
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Big dead floating things get run over by ships.

No... They get run over when they're still alive.

What a lot of whales have trouble with is that the draft of a large container ship or supertanker can run upwards of 16 meters (more than 50').
 
If only we could just limit the discussion to that narrowly constrained set of facts that supports our wild conjecture while ignoring all evidence that refutes it. Then we’d be having an honest debate.

Right?

Should we do a little research on how much animal life has been killed by pipelines?


Or is evidence showing pipelines killing animal life not relevant because the wildlife isn’t specifically a whale?
NO.

-The topic is wind farms off New Jersey and dead whales coming to a neighborhood near you.

-People like me suggested the high-power sonar surveys going on to support the building of those wind farms MIGHT have something to do with the whales and dolphins dying.. so why not pause that and see what we find.

-Others have said everything from the sonar surveys are not actually happening because the wind farm would the same structure as oil derricks and that, of course, was ludicrous given that these high-intensity surveys are happening.

-Then.. in the thread of messages around the one to which you responded.. it claimed that I (and others) were all for oil offshore instead of this wind farm.. unsupported by any facts and totally to establish a point from which to argue.

-So I said that was when I challenged that poster to provide any proof of anyone supporting oil rig creation and ignoring the deaths of whales and dolphins on our beaches.

BOTTOM LINE: My point was that bringing up OIL at all was ridiculous. It like you guys brought it up just to create a distraction and not discuss the SONAR and DEAD WHALES.

-To which YOU responded that the BP gulf disaster killed plenty of sea life. Again.. totally a different issue.

You are just adding to the idea that it is OIL or WIND and that anyone who says stop the offshore wind farm stuff while whales are dying like this is PRO-OIL. That's BS and you know it. How about focusing on the dead whales and dolphins while the wind farm surveys are going on? OIL has nothing to do with it.

One last thing.. your link showing pipelines can kill wildlife means nothing to this conversation as well as I said the pipeline is not going to kill whales and dolphins. We all know that plenty of things kill animals. New developments, logging, roads, wildfires caused by human activity.. we just saw a railroad and chemical industry kill humans and animals and many more to come,. none of that address the problem at hand of dead whales and dolphins on New Jersey beaches.

The US Navy itself admitted that its sonar has killed whales. Why is it such a stretch to think that these surveys are doing the same?
 
That’s the problem with the abandon oil wells. Luckily, the current government is willing to do something about it.


But one aspect of the package required little to no compromise: the call to cap the millions of orphaned and abandoned oil and gas wells that currently pockmark the country, from Alaska to New York to New Mexico. Whether it’s through the bipartisan infrastructure deal that’s currently being negotiated or through additional, upcoming recovery legislation, tackling this problem is essential—not only because these wells are dangerous polluters but also because doing so would create thousands of jobs in the process.

Taken together, these wells are a major source of air and groundwater pollution, as they continue to leak toxic substances such as arsenic and methane even after they’re no longer operational. But they also represent an all-too-rare point of political consensus: Just about everyone, from the reddest of red-state Republicans to the bluest of blue-state Democrats, agrees that the wells pose a serious threat to public health, that they need to be properly sealed, and that doing so will create jobs while making us all safer, whether from pollution or climate change or both.
That is a different problem. Bringing up the oil wells.. or pipelines.. or offshore well spills has nothing to do with addressing the problem at hand.. sonar surveys for wind farms killing whales. It is not okay if oil did things wrongly or cost us much more in the environment than was figured.. wind farm support won't fix that problem at all.
 
This isn't the first place that high power sonar surveys have been done so is there a history of whales and dolphins being killed in places where these surveys were done?
 
This isn't the first place that high power sonar surveys have been done so is there a history of whales and dolphins being killed in places where these surveys were done?

They're not high-power.

They are multibeam, with the transducer arrayed so that it propagates a beam about 45 degrees wide - this give you the 3D effect useful for mapping.

Very high-end fish finders also use multibeam sonar arrays.

There really isn't anything special about these sonars. They're inherently indistinguishable from the fish finders and depth finders installed in literally everything.
 
This isn't the first place that high power sonar surveys have been done so is there a history of whales and dolphins being killed in places where these surveys were done?
Hig power Navy sonar kills whales as the link above shows. Then there the question as to where the whales and dolphins are. We saw all summer that they were near jersey in big numbers... gulf stream shift.. whatever it was.. so many sightings.



https://downbeachbuzz.com/murphy-sonar-can-kill-whales/
 
They're not high-power.

They are multibeam, with the transducer arrayed so that it propagates a beam about 45 degrees wide - this give you the 3D effect useful for mapping.

Very high-end fish finders also use multibeam sonar arrays.

There really isn't anything special about these sonars. They're inherently indistinguishable from the fish finders and depth finders installed in literally everything.
Thanks- I was replying to GOR's post so I used his term.
 
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Hig power Navy sonar kills whales as the link above shows. Then there the question as to where the whales and dolphins are. We saw all summer that they were near jersey in big numbers... gulf stream shift.. whatever it was.. so many sightings.



https://downbeachbuzz.com/murphy-sonar-can-kill-whales/
There is an article about a treaty that covers how sonar will be used. Are you arguing that the military should no longer be able to use sonar or that the treaty should be more restrictive or that private companies covered by the treaty should be removed?

I can only imagine the reaction by the anti-windmill guys if PETA starting moaning about sonar and whales.

Why can't you all just admit you don't want to look at windmills from your million-dollar houses instead of your faux care about whales.
 
Incorrect.

"You may collect and keep any bones, teeth, or ivory from a non-ESA listed marine mammal found on a beach or land within ¼ of a mile of an ocean, bay, or estuary. You may not collect parts from a carcass or parts with soft tissues attached."
I found a bone after Sandy about 2 feet long and when I sent pics to RU oceanography dept to confirm they told me I need to turn it in. So I’m guessing maybe they were not accurate
 
Love the fake crocodile tears from all the nouveau environmentalists now about wind turbines . First it was the birds then the whales. Anything for the agenda againast the transformation of our energy infrastructure away from fossil fuels.

You know what lets build oil drilling platforms instead real close so all the NIMBYs can enjoy that view instead of a wind turbine 15 miles out to sea. I'm sure your all ok with that .
Kind of like the fake environmentalists who support turbines but don't care about the 3 billion disposable masks in the oceans. Same people are against pipelines which are the most environmentally friendly transport method with the least amount of spillage.
 
Kind of like the fake environmentalists who support turbines but don't care about the 3 billion disposable masks in the oceans. Same people are against pipelines which are the most environmentally friendly transport method with the least amount of spillage.
Not sure what littering has to do with wind turbines.

also perhaps you would like to live next to a pipeline?

You think environmentalists stopped the pipeline from Pa to NJ? That was stopped by NIMBY. Just like the passenger train line from Monmouth County to S Brunswick that already runs on a freight track.
 
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There is no evidence that windmills are involved in these whales deaths at all. That entire narrative has been conjured up, packaged, and sold to the public because it benefits some special interests and has been adopted as a political wedge issue so now it's being fed to the sheep.

I mean, we actually DO know for a fact that ships and the commercial fishing industry are causing whale deaths. Shall we stop all shipping and commercial fishing?

The ridiculous "argument" being made is that, because we don't know that it isn't wind turbines, we should stop building them. Now there's some real critical thought at work. Logic at it's finest. LOL

There are a limitless number of things for which we can state that we don't know those things aren't causing these whale deaths. So bad news people... We don't know that sex doesn't create undetectable physical changes to our atmosphere, that eventually causes whale deaths.

So, the only logical conclusion is to halt all sex. You guys go first.
 
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Not sure what littering has to do with wind turbines.

also perhaps you would like to live next to a pipeline?

You think environmentalists stopped the pipeline from Pa to NJ? That was stopped by NIMBY. Just like the passenger train line from Monmouth County to S Brunswick that already runs on a freight track.

The people crying over wind turbines would be the first melting down when an oil rig or nuclear plant was planned for their town.

Murphy posted a pic at the RU game and half the comments were about whales, as if they any of these people ever cared before they thought they could get attention. It's all very culty.
 
Not sure what littering has to do with wind turbines.

also perhaps you would like to live next to a pipeline?

You think environmentalists stopped the pipeline from Pa to NJ? That was stopped by NIMBY. Just like the passenger train line from Monmouth County to S Brunswick that already runs on a freight track.


Plenty of whales killed by plastics in the ocean.

Pipelines are better than the EXISTING trains. Less spillage with pipelines. FACT. Less noise and they use less energy to transport. Environmentalists should be promoting pipelines.
 
There is an article about a treaty that covers how sonar will be used. Are you arguing that the military should no longer be able to use sonar or that the treaty should be more restrictive or that private companies covered by the treaty should be removed?

I can only imagine the reaction by the anti-windmill guys if PETA starting moaning about sonar and whales.

Why can't you all just admit you don't want to look at windmills from your million-dollar houses instead of your faux care about whales.
No. I used the Navy info merely to show sonar use killing whales. Whether the US Navy (or any other foreign navy) has nothing to do with the main topic.. windmill work off New jersey possibly killing whales. At least teh US Navy kills whales in order to protect us using high power long-range sonar. They have also killed Navy people in drills as well as a pleasure boat crew and passengers iirc.

In fact.. the US Navy deserves credit for taking responsibility. I wonder if New Jersey's whale investigators are not just going to say what Murphy and the political machine tell them to say.. because in the US Navy case they found whales bleeding from their "ears"... and we just went through Covid where we saw all sorts of "official science" bullspitting us.
 
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Plenty of whales killed by plastics in the ocean.
Again. What does that have to do with the windmill project survey work being done offshore New Jersey? For all I know the staff of those ships doing the survey also throw their plastic refuse overboard.

Your second point re: pipeline vs trains should have much agreement... but, again, not germane.
 
No. I used the Navy info merely to show sonar use killing whales. Whether the US Navy (or any other foreign navy) has nothing to do with the main topic.. windmill work off New jersey possibly killing whales. At least teh US Navy kills whales in order to protect us using high power long-range sonar. They have also killed Navy people in drills as well as a pleasure boat crew and passengers iirc.

In fact.. the US Navy deserves credit for taking responsibility. I wonder if New Jersey's whale investigators are not just going to say what Murphy and the political machine tell them to say.. because in the US Navy case they found whales bleeding from their "ears"... and we just went through Covid where we saw all sorts of "official science" bullspitting us.

If you're conflating multibeam mapping sonar with a USN active array then you're missing some understanding of the technology. The difference in power and frequency is orders of magnitude.
 
They're not high-power.

They are multibeam, with the transducer arrayed so that it propagates a beam about 45 degrees wide - this give you the 3D effect useful for mapping.

Very high-end fish finders also use multibeam sonar arrays.

There really isn't anything special about these sonars. They're inherently indistinguishable from the fish finders and depth finders installed in literally everything.
They also use side-scan sonar, right? Wouldn't more power allow them see through many layers of sediment below? For the deepest structures.. if they are in a muddy or sandy area.. even a gravel area.. wouldn't they try to figure out where rock outcroping or bedrock can be found? And before you say there is no sand out there you best define what distances to which you refer.
 
They also use side-scan sonar, right? Wouldn't more power allow them see through many layers of sediment below? For the deepest structures.. if they are in a muddy or sandy area.. even a gravel area.. wouldn't they try to figure out where rock outcroping or bedrock can be found? And before you say there is no sand out there you best define what distances to which you refer.
Multi-beam and side-scan are similar, but not precisely the same thing. But per my niece, who I had over Friday night for extensive debriefing, they're not doing stratigraphy with sonar. If the surface presentation suggests outcropping, they're doing cores. She's actually working on the GIS layers for the strat map for the first phase and said she'd send it to me when it was done.
 
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Multi-beam and side-scan are similar, but not precisely the same thing. But per my niece, who I had over Friday night for extensive debriefing, they're not doing stratigraphy with sonar. If the surface presentation suggests outcropping, they're doing cores. She's actually working on the GIS layers for the strat map for the first phase and said she'd send it to me when it was done.
So you have family working on the project? Interesting. I'll stop wondering about what could be happening now and wait for people who can get all the information to reveal what they find.
 
So you have family working on the project? Interesting. I'll stop wondering about what could be happening now and wait for people who can get all the information to reveal what they find.

Yeah, you might have missed that. My niece (actually wife's niece) is an RU grad with a degree in Marine Bio and Biological Oceanography and works for NJ DEP - mostly on wetlands reclamation and living shoreline. The offshore wind projects are "all hands on deck" for DEP folks with those credentials.
 
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Plenty of whales killed by plastics in the ocean.

Pipelines are better than the EXISTING trains. Less spillage with pipelines. FACT. Less noise and they use less energy to transport. Environmentalists should be promoting pipelines.
You never answered if you would live next to a pipeline?

It makes me laugh that people were fine putting a pipeline over the water supply and sacred grounds of a sovereign Indian reservation but now that energy infrastructure is coming their way they are desperate to stop and have now turned into whale huggers.
 
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You never answered if you would live next to a pipeline?

It makes me laugh that people were fine putting a pipeline over the water supply and sacred grounds of a sovereign Indian reservation but now that energy infrastructure is coming their way they are desperate to stop and have now turned into whale huggers.
I remember they wanted to put a pipeline in Bergen county from upstate NY which might affect the water supply for Northern NJ. Any spillage would have been tragic. I don’t have anything against pipelines but not near my water supply.

 
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You never answered if you would live next to a pipeline?

It makes me laugh that people were fine putting a pipeline over the water supply and sacred grounds of a sovereign Indian reservation but now that energy infrastructure is coming their way they are desperate to stop and have now turned into whale huggers.

As long as the pipelines run through only the property of the pipeline promoters, we can have as many pipelines as they want.

I do love their environmentalism though. How about the sea creatures killed by plastic bags? Surely they must have supported banning them!
 
Incidentally, in case anyone was unaware - the current plan to shore-tie the offshore wind farms is to aggregate all the cables at Oyster Creek, since it's just sitting there for the next 10,000 years and all of the distribution network is already in place.
 
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I remember they wanted to put a pipeline in Bergen county from upstate NY which might affect the water supply for Northern NJ. Any spillage would have been tragic. I don’t have anything against pipelines but not near my water supply.


My dad was involved in that fight against as he worked for the Wanaque Reservoir at the time.
 
Expert on everything. Calls everyone an idiot Insufferable person to read how he's always right and no one knows as much as him. I've lost count on how many he's insulted in this thread. If your opinion is different,there's no back and forth, your just an idiot.
 
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