OT: New York Mets 2021-2022 Off Season Thread
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I note that the Yankees and Diamondbacks won world championships the year *after* he left. That makes me think he is good at developing young players, but perhaps not that good at managing people. It reminds me of something Rick Dempsey said when the Orioles won the 1983 world championship the year after Earl Weaver retired: "Earl taught us how to win. Joe Altobelli lets us win."
While we wait for the manager selection to become official, here's a summation of the five key issues in the CBA negotiations. From an excellent series on Metsmerized Online. Rather than link five separate articles, I have summarized and offered my comments.
ISSUE 1 - FREE AGENCY
CURRENT RULE - Free agency is granted after six years of MLB service time.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - Reduce free agency requirement to five years service time, OR player attainment of age 29.5, whichever comes first.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Owners have counterproposed with the age 29.5 threshold only, service time would no longer be a determinant.
COMMENT - The owners' position works well for players out of college, who are older when they begin their career. It does not work well for HS players and especially Latino players who can be signed as early as 16. For instance, under the owners' proposal, Juan Soto would be 10 years into his MLB career before attaining free agency.
ISSUE 2 - ARBITRATION
CURRENT RULE - Most players need three years of MLB service time before becoming arbitration eligible. There are rare exceptions (Super Twos), who qualify after two years.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - All players become arbitration eligible after two years.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Eliminate arbitration and replace it with a performance-based system, for example, scheduled salary increases based on WAR.
COMMENT - Arbitration has been good to the players. However, it is very rarely used. The large majority of cases are resolved before getting to arbitration. That suggests that a mutually agreeable alternative to arbitration may be achieved, maybe?
ISSUE 3 - COMPETITIVE BALANCE TAX (Luxury Tax)
CURRENT RULE - It's complicated, but in general - if a team exceeds a predefined salary threshold, it has to pay a penalty, the proceeds of which go to the lower revenue teams.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - Increase the threshold, and decrease the penalty.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Decrease the threshold, and increase the penalty.
COMMENT - Seems like we have an impasse here. The players hate this system because they claim its beneficiaries (the low revenue teams) aren't spending the money they get. I think the players have a point. One thing is clear from the owners standpoint - the small market teams are in the majority, and they are callling the shots.
ISSUE 4 - THE ENTRY DRAFT
CURRENT RULE - Traditional inverse order selection. The more you lose, the higher you pick.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - Players hate this system because it encourages tanking, and teams that are tanking don't spend money. A proposal that has been floated (not sure the players support it) is to have the highest ranking non-playoff teams pick first. This presumably would incent all teams to try (and spend) at all times.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Status quo, I think.
COMMENT - I can definitely see this changing.
ISSUE 5 - PLAYOFFS
CURRENT RULE - 10 teams qualify.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - Status quo. They oppose playoff expansion because they believe that the easier it is to make the playoffs, the less motivated owners will feel to spend money in order to make it.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Increase playoffs to 14. Two reasons. More playoff games equals more revenue. Also, more teams in contention in September also equals more revenue.
COMMENT - I can see the players conceding on this in order to get other concessions from ownership.
ISSUE 1 - FREE AGENCY
CURRENT RULE - Free agency is granted after six years of MLB service time.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - Reduce free agency requirement to five years service time, OR player attainment of age 29.5, whichever comes first.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Owners have counterproposed with the age 29.5 threshold only, service time would no longer be a determinant.
COMMENT - The owners' position works well for players out of college, who are older when they begin their career. It does not work well for HS players and especially Latino players who can be signed as early as 16. For instance, under the owners' proposal, Juan Soto would be 10 years into his MLB career before attaining free agency.
ISSUE 2 - ARBITRATION
CURRENT RULE - Most players need three years of MLB service time before becoming arbitration eligible. There are rare exceptions (Super Twos), who qualify after two years.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - All players become arbitration eligible after two years.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Eliminate arbitration and replace it with a performance-based system, for example, scheduled salary increases based on WAR.
COMMENT - Arbitration has been good to the players. However, it is very rarely used. The large majority of cases are resolved before getting to arbitration. That suggests that a mutually agreeable alternative to arbitration may be achieved, maybe?
ISSUE 3 - COMPETITIVE BALANCE TAX (Luxury Tax)
CURRENT RULE - It's complicated, but in general - if a team exceeds a predefined salary threshold, it has to pay a penalty, the proceeds of which go to the lower revenue teams.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - Increase the threshold, and decrease the penalty.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Decrease the threshold, and increase the penalty.
COMMENT - Seems like we have an impasse here. The players hate this system because they claim its beneficiaries (the low revenue teams) aren't spending the money they get. I think the players have a point. One thing is clear from the owners standpoint - the small market teams are in the majority, and they are callling the shots.
ISSUE 4 - THE ENTRY DRAFT
CURRENT RULE - Traditional inverse order selection. The more you lose, the higher you pick.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - Players hate this system because it encourages tanking, and teams that are tanking don't spend money. A proposal that has been floated (not sure the players support it) is to have the highest ranking non-playoff teams pick first. This presumably would incent all teams to try (and spend) at all times.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Status quo, I think.
COMMENT - I can definitely see this changing.
ISSUE 5 - PLAYOFFS
CURRENT RULE - 10 teams qualify.
PLAYERS PROPOSAL - Status quo. They oppose playoff expansion because they believe that the easier it is to make the playoffs, the less motivated owners will feel to spend money in order to make it.
OWNERS PROPOSAL - Increase playoffs to 14. Two reasons. More playoff games equals more revenue. Also, more teams in contention in September also equals more revenue.
COMMENT - I can see the players conceding on this in order to get other concessions from ownership.
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Maybe one the questions they should ask the candidates is whether or not they follow the stock and investment talk thread on the RU Rivals Board.
I'm hardly an expert, but none of these issues seem like they should be life or death to either side. My guess is that we'll see a deal early enough so that spring training can open on time.
Agree. The 800 pound gorilla is the Salary Cap. Fortunately, the 800 pound gorilla is not in the room. There has been no serious discussion of the owners trying to impose a cap. Good thing, because I think the players would die on that hill.
If there's no agreement in place by February 1, be concerned. No agreement by March 1, be worried.
“A proposal that has been floated (not sure the players support it) is to have the highest ranking non-playoff teams pick first. This presumably would incent all teams to try (and spend) at all times.”
Is it just me or can we make this the rule in ALL sports to prevent tanking?
Is it just me or can we make this the rule in ALL sports to prevent tanking?
Relegation is the way to go. Drop teams to the minors.
Even if that were economically feasible, which it is not, it is not even conceptually feasible given major-minor league affiliation. Can't relegate the New York Mets and promote the Syracuse Mets.
Of course I know that but a change of the system has to come. 2/3 of these owners don't care and don't spend.
My preferences to the 5 issues:
1. Free Agency: sooner of 6 years of ML Service or 29.5 years old
2. Arbitration: Remains at 3 years
3. Luxury Tax: Set a floor salary cap minimum for teams to maintain
4. Entry Draft: Decided by Lottery similar to NBA
5. Playoffs: Expand to 14 teams (7 in each league)......wild card round is best of 3.......division winners in wild card round host all games.....best division winner team gets bye for wild card round.....after wild card, 8 teams remain and thus playoffs go to 3 of 5 for Division Series and then 4 of 7 for LCS and then World Series....
1. Free Agency: sooner of 6 years of ML Service or 29.5 years old
2. Arbitration: Remains at 3 years
3. Luxury Tax: Set a floor salary cap minimum for teams to maintain
4. Entry Draft: Decided by Lottery similar to NBA
5. Playoffs: Expand to 14 teams (7 in each league)......wild card round is best of 3.......division winners in wild card round host all games.....best division winner team gets bye for wild card round.....after wild card, 8 teams remain and thus playoffs go to 3 of 5 for Division Series and then 4 of 7 for LCS and then World Series....
A wild card round of best of 3 will require a reduction in regular season games or starting in March. Neither is a good thing.
I think your #1, 2, 4, and 5 could happen. Even though I hate #5. The current 10 team playoff system, with the one game do or die wild card, is perfect IMO.
#3 will not happen. Owners won't offer a salary floor without a corresponding salary cap, which is a non-starter for the players. I don't think it is on the table.
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I understand the players don't want a salary cap, but #3 has to happen or like Whitebus said, there will continue to be owners that won't spend and just keep taking from the other owners. If the players really think about it, making sure there is a minimum they can't go below, will mean more money for players in the long run. Of course if they really care about winning and not the "money"{ yea right", then they won't go to the bottom feeders anyway.
Yup, need to know what name to print on both my sons Mets jersey for Christmas, if you must know.
I feel like the league needs a soft floor. Similar to the luxury tax. If you are under the floor cap- your share of the revenue sharing is diminished by how far below, how many consecutive years, etc...
A blast from the past - Mets signed Matt Reynolds to a minor league contract, which is the only kind of contract you can sign anyone to right now.
If he makes the team at some point, he will be a rare remaining link to the glory days of 2015, sort of. Reynolds never actually played for the Mets in 2015. However, after the evil Chase Utley committed assault against Ruben Tejada, Reynolds was activated to take his place on the postseason roster. He finally made his Mets debut in 2016, and was up and down for two uneventful seasons.
Mets second round draft pick in 2012. As in all sports, baseball drafting is an inexact science.
If he makes the team at some point, he will be a rare remaining link to the glory days of 2015, sort of. Reynolds never actually played for the Mets in 2015. However, after the evil Chase Utley committed assault against Ruben Tejada, Reynolds was activated to take his place on the postseason roster. He finally made his Mets debut in 2016, and was up and down for two uneventful seasons.
Mets second round draft pick in 2012. As in all sports, baseball drafting is an inexact science.
While we wait for the news of the weekend, here's something I never knew until just now...
Ken Griffey Jr. was very nearly a Met. A 30 year old, in the peak of his prime, Ken Griffey Jr. He was traded from Seattle to the Mets after the 1999 season. Griffey Jr. for Armando Benitez, Roger Cedeno, and Octavio Dotel. It was a done deal.
Until Griffey Jr. used his 10 and 5 rights to veto it. He wanted to go to his hometown of Cincinnati, which he eventually did.
We will never know whether Griffey Jr. would have made a difference in the 2000 World Series. Nor do we know if the Mets would have been able to re-sign him, as he was a one year rental. Fun to speculate though.
Am I the only one who didn't know this?
Ken Griffey Jr. was very nearly a Met. A 30 year old, in the peak of his prime, Ken Griffey Jr. He was traded from Seattle to the Mets after the 1999 season. Griffey Jr. for Armando Benitez, Roger Cedeno, and Octavio Dotel. It was a done deal.
Until Griffey Jr. used his 10 and 5 rights to veto it. He wanted to go to his hometown of Cincinnati, which he eventually did.
We will never know whether Griffey Jr. would have made a difference in the 2000 World Series. Nor do we know if the Mets would have been able to re-sign him, as he was a one year rental. Fun to speculate though.
Am I the only one who didn't know this?
Getting Griffey would have been monumental! I looked up his stats and 2000 was his last monster year as he broke down physically after that. Can you imagine Griffey on our 2000 WS team! Who knows? History could have changed with him patrolling the OF instead of Timo or Payton and teaming up with Piazza for a historic 3-4 hall of fame line up.
Yes. This was big news back then. Griffey was my favorite non Met and was thrilled when the trade was announced before he turned it down.
Griffey with Piazza Zeile and Ventura would have been pretty good. Payton, Bell and Benny A all played well that year too. But...SS and pitching still would have killed us. We had 2 good starters and the BP was crap and Benetiz was pretty much Diaz 2019...
Should never have traded Melvin Mora for Mike Bordick. Bordick did NOTHING in 2000 while Mora had a good career, better than Bordick’s.
How the hell did I forget him? He was first and foremost on my mind after Piazza...thanks for the catch...
We really didn’t mind Benitez because he was better than John Franco. But we still should’ve known better how bad Benitez was as well.
Both plays happened the way it happened and that’s the way it is. I’m not going to punch a wall over it. It is what it is. Mets will be back in the WS in 2030.
Benitez was a great stopper thru Labor Day. Then when a pennant race occurred or post season play - he would unfortunately melt down.
My facebook feed had a video of the Orioles' last at-bat in the 1969 World Series. The Mets led 5-3 behind the pitching of Jerry Koosman. (The Senator, as he came to be called in his older years, started and finished.) The Orioles got a runner on first. With two out, Davey Johnson (of all people) came to bat. He hit a fly ball to left. I remember listening on the radio,and the announcer made it seem that the ball was caught against the wall. (A professor from NYC commented that his knuckles turned white clutching his car's steering wheel.) But the video shows a routine fly ball being caught by Cleon Jones at the edge of the warning track. Have I really misremembered it all these years??
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